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Availability of accessible rail replacement coaches

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kingqueen

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Not all councils require hackney taxis to be wheelchair accessible, Bradford for one city still has a large fleet of non-compliant ones, as does Leeds.
Some councils have no accessible taxis whatsoever, Hackney Carriage or Private Hire.

Others have so few they're unusable. Take for example Harrogate. It has 11 accessible hackney carriages and 11 accessible private hire, but none of these are being driven on an evening or a weekend, the taxi drivers are all occupied doing schools and adult social care transport work during weekdays so don't work evenings or weekends. Which leaves me in an interesting position if I miss the last bus home.
 
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Robertj21a

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Some councils have no accessible taxis whatsoever, Hackney Carriage or Private Hire.

Others have so few they're unusable. Take for example Harrogate. It has 11 accessible hackney carriages and 11 accessible private hire, but none of these are being driven on an evening or a weekend, the taxi drivers are all occupied doing schools and adult social care transport work during weekdays so don't work evenings or weekends. Which leaves me in an interesting position if I miss the last bus home.

Thanks, it sounds like the councils need to be given a push in the right direction.
 

richw

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Fleet list released on their enthusiast Facebook this morning shows 18 Psvar compliant coaches in the First southwest fleet. FSW work a considerable amount of rail In the southwest
 

Robertj21a

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It also requires a fair amount of investment from the drivers, which is why some councils will be taking longer than others.

Given that buses/coaches have had to meet various time constraints to meet legislation I'm surprised if councils/taxi owners haven't been similarly affected.
 

SuperNova

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But there is an easy solution of some kind. Stop operating RRBs.

Of course, this leaves passengers without any way to travel, but it is a solution. Albeit one that might lead to a great deal of shouting from passengers, Transport Focus, the media, MPs...

Don't be surprised to see TOC's do this.Why? There's simply not enough compliant vehicles in the country to cover for TOC's. And I'm led to believe that some disability campaigners are looking for any reason to take TOC's to court if the RRB provided isn't compliant.

Of course the sensible thing to do would be to supply both coached and compliant vehicles - a practical compromise. Take LNER - IF they're replacing a 9 coach Azuma with RRB, as long as they provide for the 4 disabled seats on their service then they would be fine.
 

Dai Corner

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Don't be surprised to see TOC's do this.Why? There's simply not enough compliant vehicles in the country to cover for TOC's. And I'm led to believe that some disability campaigners are looking for any reason to take TOC's to court if the RRB provided isn't compliant.

Of course the sensible thing to do would be to supply both coached and compliant vehicles - a practical compromise. Take LNER - IF they're replacing a 9 coach Azuma with RRB, as long as they provide for the 4 disabled seats on their service then they would be fine.


Absolutely, but it seems some disability campaigners won't rest until they get to ride in the same vehicle as other passengers, even if it's a service bus and takes two hours for a 30 mile journey calling at every station when they could have a taxi straight to their destination station taking a quarter of the time.
 

Bletchleyite

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Absolutely, but it seems some disability campaigners won't rest until they get to ride in the same vehicle as other passengers, even if it's a service bus and takes two hours for a 30 mile journey calling at every station when they could have a taxi straight to their destination station taking a quarter of the time.

And it does seem that wheelchair users are the most vocal people with disabilities, even if the use of a service bus type vehicle instead of a coach would be an issue for people with other disabilities, e.g. urgent toilet need or back problems, both of which are a lot more common than wheelchair use.
 

Dai Corner

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And it does seem that wheelchair users are the most vocal people with disabilities, even if the use of a service bus type vehicle instead of a coach would be an issue for people with other disabilities, e.g. urgent toilet need or back problems, both of which are a lot more common than wheelchair use.

I suffer from both of those at times.

It's also occurred to me that even if someone had to wait for an hour and a half for an accessible taxi in the above scenario he'd still arrive at the same time as if he'd taken the RRB.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suffer from both of those at times.

It's also occurred to me that even if someone had to wait for an hour and a half for an accessible taxi in the above scenario he'd still arrive at the same time as if he'd taken the RRB.

True.

Most wheelchair access improvements benefit everyone, e.g. bigger toilets, wider doors, level access, ramps, lifts etc.

The oddity of this scenario is that the only realistic outcomes of strictly enforcing the law (a large fleet of PSVAR coaches not being a realistic outcome) disadvantage pretty much everyone else whether they have a non-mobility-related disability (toilet use, back problems etc) or none.

I can only conclude therefore that the law is an ass and should be changed to a requirement to ensure that wheelchair users and others who cannot board/alight a conventional stepped coach are catered for properly, but not that every vehicle is required to be accessible to them.
 

SuperNova

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I can only conclude therefore that the law is an ass and should be changed to a requirement to ensure that wheelchair users and others who cannot board/alight a conventional stepped coach are catered for properly, but not that every vehicle is required to be accessible to them.

100% this. Sadly, I think the nuclear option of running no RRB's will have to happen for this pragmatic approach to be taken. Unless dispensation is granted by the government for more than just a few months!
 

RJ

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The government could do more to cater for all citizens and subsidise the cost of increasing the availability of accessible vehicles. The PSVAR have turned coach operated rail replacement routes into niche work where demand for vehicles outstrips supply considerably.

I'm a pragmatist, but also don't believe in excluding those who have conditions precluding the use of inaccessible vehicle. As a member of station staff I've had problems procuring suitable taxis to cater for wheelchair bound customers in an acceptable timeframe, which I've had to do when working at stations that are not step free.

The obvious short term change I can see happening is rethinking RRB routes so as many as possible can be run using low floor buses rather than coaches.

That would be a solution as long as qualifiers are put on them to ensure they're right for the job! Things like them not being limited to 28mph on runs timed for faster buses, having sufficient fuel tank capacity to complete the job etc.

Something else that was tried was procuring PSVAR compliant luxury minibuses and running them on suburban routes out of a busy Zone 2 station on a few Sunday closures last year. The last few times that closure happened I haven't seen them again. A novel way to get compliant vehicles but lots of people unable to board!
 
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Robertj21a

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One issue that could help is rationalising the laws affecting drivers hours and the 50km rules. At least then bus and coach drivers would be on the same arrangements.
 

hwl

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Something else that was tried was procuring PSVAR compliant luxury minibuses and running them on suburban routes out of a busy Zone 2 station on a few Sunday closures last year. The last few times that closure happened I haven't seen them again. A novel way to get compliant vehicles but lots of people unable to board!
I saw it happening the weekend before last too, but as supplementary measure.
 

Deafdoggie

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We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?
 

Bletchleyite

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We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?

Yes and no.

Service buses operate on motorways (and do get used for rail replacement services), but service buses generally cannot reach 62mph.
 

Dai Corner

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We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?
There are plenty of service buses which use motorways. I can think of three round here.

I'm not sure they do 62mph though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Remember that motorways are the safest roads. Much safer than, for example, a 60mph single carriageway or 70mph dual carriageway, on which countless thousands of service bus routes operate (including every single route in Milton Keynes).
 

hwl

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We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?
How many rail replacement vehicles actually carry passengers on motorways?
GTR have managed to find ones during the week for recent big closures.
Sussex Police also didn't want any RRB/Cs on the M23 due to extra traffic pressure with roadworks during the BML works for example.
 

Dai Corner

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How many rail replacement vehicles actually carry passengers on motorways?
GTR have managed to find ones during the week for recent big closures.
Sussex Police also didn't want any RRB/Cs on the M23 due to extra traffic pressure with roadworks during the BML works for example.

Lots doing the the Newport-Bristol run when the Severn Tunnel is closed (as it has been a lot for the electrification works over the last few years). From memory some have been service buses, notably those free during University holidays.
 

RJ

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Yes and no.

Service buses operate on motorways (and do get used for rail replacement services), but service buses generally cannot reach 62mph.

A fair few can - I took a bus out on the Picadilly Line Night Tube replacement the other weekend and used its 65mph capability on the dead run on the M4. Previously had one from the same batch for Maidenhead to Paddington which was routed along the M4 between Langley and West Drayton. These buses normally potter around South London at 20mph.

Certain buses in the London fleet do not have working speed limiters and have done over 70mph in service - not sure I'd want to be on such a bus though as the ride quality in a low floor bus is pretty ropey above a certain speed!
 
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Robertj21a

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There are plenty of service buses which use motorways. I can think of three round here.

I'm not sure they do 62mph though.
We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?

As others have also commented, I'm not sure what your point is about service buses on motorways. A good many standard service buses use motorways and seem more than capable of travelling at 55-60mph at least, certainly overtaking the slower/heavier trucks. What is different about them being used on rail replacement ?
 

Bletchleyite

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Sussex Police also didn't want any RRB/Cs on the M23 due to extra traffic pressure with roadworks during the BML works for example.

Last time I checked one did not have to request Police consent to drive a taxed, insured, licensed vehicle on a public road of one's choice. So they can say that all they like and the railway does not have to pay attention.
 

Robertj21a

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Last time I checked one did not have to request Police consent to drive a taxed, insured, licensed vehicle on a public road of one's choice. So they can say that all they like and the railway does not have to pay attention.

If I recall correctly, Sussex police *requested* co-operation from the RR operators, due to anticpated congestion. It was, presumably, of benefit to all parties to agree a smoother route for so many additional buses on the roads.
 

TUC

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Coming out of Manchester Piccadilly tonight I noticed an RRB which was a wheelchair accessible Arriva service bus, so it does seem perfectly possible to go for this option.
 

Bikeman78

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We come back, full circle, where are all these spare buses coming from during the week? Where are all these spare drivers at the weekend?
Don’t forget that service buses may have wheelchair spaces, but very rarely have seatbelts. Are TOCs prepared to put people down the motorway at 62mph without seat belts?
I've never used a seatbelt on a rail replacement bus or coach but then it's a long time since I've been on one. I do recall that First Glasgow used Volvo Ailsas along the M8 motorway on the X6 or X7 out of Glasgow. I think they did have seat belts but no one used them.
 

Bikeman78

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Lots doing the the Newport-Bristol run when the Severn Tunnel is closed (as it has been a lot for the electrification works over the last few years). From memory some have been service buses, notably those free during University holidays.
Also Reading to Swindon, Swindon to Bristol Parkway, Newport to Cardiff and Cardiff to Bridgend all use the M4.
 

Deafdoggie

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As others have also commented, I'm not sure what your point is about service buses on motorways. A good many standard service buses use motorways and seem more than capable of travelling at 55-60mph at least, certainly overtaking the slower/heavier trucks. What is different about them being used on rail replacement ?

The point is many people, including insurers, are not happy being on the motorway with no seatbelts. Others have a more lax view of safety.
The law requires all buses and coaches to have a working speed limiter set at 62mph (Lorries are 56mph). A tachograph will flash a warning if you go faster, if you ignore it, it’ll get picked up when your tacho card is next downloaded (which has to be within 28 days) You can expect a fine and points. Of course, if you’re using service buses with no tacho fitted then you’ll possibly get away with it. But it doesn’t make it legal & in my view makes service buses even more unsuitable for RRB work.
 
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