Availability of accessible rail replacement coaches

[kingqueen]

I don't think we can rely on RRBs not operating to a published timetable exempting them from FDA/PSVAR.

Please excuse my ignorance: what does FDA stand for? I know it as the American Food and Drug Administration, can't be that!

As an operator, are you contracted to operate to a schedule or just to supply x buses to shuttle between specified stations?

If there are bus operators on here, I'd love to know whether TOCs raise accessibility of rail replacement buses when ordering them (particularly in advance) and how much emphasis is put on such.

Thanks

 

[randyrippley]

...........I guess this would raise the question: how "off-schedule" does something have to be before it isn't classified as scheduled and thus doesn't have to be PSVAR compliant? If there's a schedule published in advance, then presumably the vehicles in question would have to be PSVAR unless and until that schedule is significantly deviated from, by which time presumably the vehicles have already arrived and are in use!............

Good example of that today.......at least some of the Blackpool South services were being run by coaches in lieu of the usual Blackpool "Palladian"double deckers. I don't know why, but I suspect todays weather may have meant they were needed back for their real job....by now if all had gone to plan the bus company would have had their new fleet back and could have dumped the remaining old ones.
But Blackpool's an interesting case anyway: they've had the Palladians running an all-stops scheduled service, with a hodge-podge of coaches running Blackpool-Preston direct, seemingly unscheduled.

 

[kingqueen]

c) considering that rail replacements are usually at weekends when less buses are needed for regular service... and considering that all express coaches and many touring coaches are now delivered compliant then the answer as to whether there will be enough vehicles after 2020 is an unqualified yes

Interesting, thank you. I wish there were sufficient now! Is the fact that so few rail replacement buses are accessible an indication that there are insufficient such vehicles available / the distribution of such, do you think?

d) a little known fact is that buses employed on emergency rail replacement are exempt from pcv regulations concerning accessibility AND drivers hrs

Interesting also. A friend who is a wheelchair user was caught up in the 7/7 bombings and unable to get home after all public transport stopped and her wheelchair battery died. Eventually a police officer commandeered a bus and instructed the driver to take her, and her friend (also a wheelchair user) home. The police officer overrode the concern that the bus only had one wheelchair space on the basis that it was an emergency.

I suggest that a bigger question is this... When do the rail industry intend to make the network fully accessible to disabled customers on an equal footing to their non-disabled pax as is required of bus operators already?

I'm with you there. I'm all for accessibility throughout, including on rail, though with the aging infrastructure it is perhaps more difficult to achieve.

 

[causton]

A rail replacement service does not operate to a published timetable... it awaits the arrival of a train... pax are transferred to the bus/ coach... the replacement vehicle then continues along the route of the train calling at stations without following any timetable... it is just to get to it's destination in a timely manner. No matter how much you try to argue otherwise a Rail Replacement bus/ coach is NOT a scheduled service... it is a contract/ charter and is therefore exempt from PSVAR as it now stands and, unless the regulations are changed in the future... will continue to be exempt.

That is one type of rail replacement, emergency rail replacement.

Other rail replacement work is booked weeks/months in advance (at least, it should be!) and most certainly has a schedule and a diagram for each bus/coach.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

That is one type of rail replacement, emergency rail replacement.

Other rail replacement work is booked weeks/months in advance (at least, it should be!) and most certainly has a schedule and a diagram for each bus/coach.

yes I agree, with planned RRB it's usual to have a schedule {no self respecting bus operator would operate otherwise} but it isn't a published schedule and is for internal use only.

Perhaps at this stage I could give an example of a PH that might shed some light on the subject...

I recently took part in a PH where the client had asked for a 1/2 hrly circular service. The service was operated to a published timetable. The pax using the service had paid a "fare" in that they had paid for a ticket for the day's event. The vehicles used on the service were not subject to PSVAR as it was deemed a PH/ contract at law... does that sound like a Rail Replacement?

 

[embers25]

RRB have timetables for preplanned works which are also shown on national rail and stations. Even the every 5 min Gatwick ones have timetables available online to all pax so your blanket statement that they aren't published is wrong. SWT posted detailed timetables on every station. Even last minute ones eg. Last minute extra works do and are shown on realtimetrains. I agree ad hoc ones like GTR aren't published but then neither are ones to events like concerts etc.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the, understandable, confusion here is because some of us are talking at cross-purposes !

My understanding is that there are significant differences between those rail replacement bus/coach services which can be planned well in advance (in some cases many weeks/months) and those that are very short term, truly emergency situations. The emergency situation is what many of us are probably referring to as they are the more 'interesting' in terms of vehicles used (literally anything that is available), cover unusual routes for the vehicles, and the event in itself is clearly unexpected.

The planned use of buses/coaches for rail replacement work (such as Blackpool recently, and Derby shortly) is using vehicles over a specified route, with individual fares paid [albeit initially to the TOC], and operating to an agreed timetable. For these planned operations a vehicle needs to meet PSVAR legislation.

As I mentioned above, it's quite likely that there will be insufficient disabled-friendly *coaches* from 2020 but the early ex-National Express vehicles that comply with PSVAR have already moved on to smaller operators and, in any event, there are numerous *buses* around. I guess that on the bigger rail replacement work there only needs to be 1 compliant coach out of the 5-6 that might be covering one train journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern's publication of a bus timetable for the Windermere route is very much an exception to the normal rule. To the best of my knowledge they've never done it for previous closures of that route - but then previous closures have mainly been two-day weekend shutdowns

It very much is the norm to publish a timetable, even if it is only on the journey planner, where the replacement bus service is planned rather than ad-hoc.

 

[kingqueen]

My understanding is that there are significant differences between those rail replacement bus/coach services which can be planned well in advance (in some cases many weeks/months) and those that are very short term, truly emergency situations.

I guess also, sometimes situations morph between the two. So for example, a landslide or failed bridge may be sudden and cause an emergency rail replacement bus, but it may take many months to repair and so the rail replacement bus becomes more long-term and more planned.

The planned use of buses/coaches for rail replacement work (such as Blackpool recently, and Derby shortly) is using vehicles over a specified route, with individual fares paid [albeit initially to the TOC], and operating to an agreed timetable. For these planned operations a vehicle needs to meet PSVAR legislation.

In which case, I wonder why so many coaches in use as rail replacement buses in such circumstances are inaccessible at the moment.

Coaches that were first used on or after 1st January 2005 are subject to PSVAR now (if used on scheduled services at separate fares, as per the above.)

I had a quick look at the website of the main provider of coaches locally for Northern's rail replacement buses for e.g. their industrial action days and currently on Windermere. Over half of their coaches were manufactured after 2004. Unhelpfully, whilst their website lists whether each one has a toilet, air conditioning etc etc., it doesn't mention whether each coach is wheelchair accessible; but the pictures, and Northern's communications with me, suggests that they are not.

As I mentioned above, it's quite likely that there will be insufficient disabled-friendly *coaches* from 2020 but the early ex-National Express vehicles that comply with PSVAR have already moved on to smaller operators and, in any event, there are numerous *buses* around.

That's good news. (I originally asked about buses and coaches, not just coaches.)

I guess that on the bigger rail replacement work there only needs to be 1 compliant coach out of the 5-6 that might be covering one train journey.

The other 4 or 5 being accessible buses?

I don't think the PSVAR differentiates between situations where one bus, or several buses, run to the same schedule - my understanding is that PSVAR would apply to all the vehicles covering the one journey (provided it's got a published schedule etc.)

 

[philthetube]

Seems as if there is a simple answer until 2020, call them rail replacement coach services.

 

[Andyh82]

The answer to the question is basically No. From 2020 there won’t be sufficient accessible coaches. Most coach firms of the type used on rail replacement may have one so they can advertise they have one, or have none.

The technology wasn’t quite there in the early days of accessible coaches, so most companies didn’t buy them, and as they aren’t required for private hire, had no immediate reason to buy them.

If they all have to be DDA compliant after 2020 it’s likely most rail replacements will change to be run by buses, so it’ll be life expired old London double decks in the main.

 

[northwichcat]

Good example of that today.......at least some of the Blackpool South services were being run by coaches in lieu of the usual Blackpool "Palladian"double deckers. I don't know why, but I suspect todays weather may have meant they were needed back for their real job....by now if all had gone to plan the bus company would have had their new fleet back and could have dumped the remaining old ones.
But Blackpool's an interesting case anyway: they've had the Palladians running an all-stops scheduled service, with a hodge-podge of coaches running Blackpool-Preston direct, seemingly unscheduled.

Numerous reasons why that could have been done:
1. Coaches are more suited to motorway journeys and logically a direct Preston to Blackpool express service would use the motorway.
2. Faster loading/unloading times on buses which makes them more suited to stopping services.
3. The express services run an ad-hoc basis depending on demand.
4. Better fuel economy on the Palladian buses means it makes more sense to use them on RRBs and older buses on their normal services.
5. More luggage space on coaches and if they run non-stop it reduces the chance of any luggage getting stolen.

 

[kingqueen]

Re-looking at the PSVAR, they apply to local OR scheduled services.

Local services are defined as services carrying fare-paying passengers where the distance between consecutive stops is less than 15 miles. That's a summary, the precise definition is in Section 2 of the Transport Act 1985.

So rail replacement buses in use on services that don't have a schedule and where stations are less than 15 miles apart are also covered.

The exclusion for private hire doesn't apply for rail replacement buses. It is specified in Schedule 1 Part 3 of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981:

That states that all passengers must go to the final destination of the bus and that there must be no differentiation of fare based on distanced or time. So only rail replacement buses with one stop meet this requirement.

Also "The journey must be made without previous advertisement to the public of the arrangements therefor". What class as "arrangements" and "previous" I guess are probably open to interpretation.

I'm returning to my original conclusion that most rail replacement buses are subject to PSVAR because they're either scheduled or local, as defined in the legislation.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm returning to my original conclusion that most rail replacement buses are subject to PSVAR because they're either scheduled or local, as defined in the legislation.

I guess someone needs to take a test case to court.

 

[northwichcat]

The exclusion for private hire doesn't apply for rail replacement buses. It is specified in Schedule 1 Part 3 of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981:

Note if a permit is granted under section 19 then buses used for the following
(a) education ; (b) religion ; (c) social welfare ; (d) recreation ; or (e) other activities of benefit to the community.
can be exempt even if the 'private hire' conditions aren't met.

Also "The journey must be made without previous advertisement to the public of the arrangements therefor". What class as "arrangements" and "previous" I guess are probably open to interpretation.

That could make a difference between replacement buses booked for scheduled engineering works and last minute replacement buses booked for reasons like a line being blocked due to a broken down train.

 

[pompeyfan]

Having evaluated everything I’ve read, im firmly in the camp that RRB should not have to be PSVAR compliant.

From how I interpret PSVAR only applies when the passenger pays the operator directly, otherwise all buses everywhere would have to be PSVAR, as every bus is running to some sort of schedule and nearly every bus is operated for reward of the operator in some way.

There’s a local uni service that is only run for uni students with none DDA stock. It runs to a schedule and the students have effectively paid for the service, so should this in your opinion be subject to service regulations, and if not, why not.

Lucketts coaches have just purchased 3 11 plate B9 deckers and put extra seats in the wheelchair bay specifically for rail replacement work.

 

[kingqueen]

From how I interpret PSVAR only applies when the passenger pays the operator directly

That is definitely not the case.
The Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 s1.5 applies.

(a) a vehicle is to be treated as carrying passengers for hire or reward if payment is made for, or for matters which include, the carrying of passengers, irrespective of the person to whom the payment is made and, in the case of a transaction effected by or on behalf of a member of any association of persons (whether incorporated or not) on the one hand and the association or another member thereof on the other hand, notwithstanding any rule of law as to such transactions;
(b) a payment made for the carrying of a passenger shall be treated as a fare notwithstanding that it is made in consideration of other matters in addition to the journey and irrespective of the person by or to whom it is made;
(c) a payment shall be treated as made for the carrying of a passenger if made in consideration of a person’s being given a right to be carried, whether for one or more journeys and whether or not the right is exercised.

Note: "irrespective of the person to whom the payment is made"

Hansard discusses this in relation to school buses.

otherwise all buses everywhere would have to be PSVAR, as every bus is running to some sort of schedule and nearly every bus is operated for reward of the operator in some way.

That's not far off the situation.

There’s a local uni service that is only run for uni students with none DDA stock. It runs to a schedule and the students have effectively paid for the service, so should this in your opinion be subject to service regulations, and if not, why not.

I guess this is analogous to the State / Private school issue as discussed in the Hansard link above.

For buses provided by a state school, provided that the passengers made no contribution to the cost of travel and no contribution was made on their behalf, no hire or reward is taking place and the vehicle is not a PSV. When contributions are made for travel, it is a PSV. Since private schools charge pupils fees for the whole of the education service that they provide, they would probably be regarded always as operating buses for hire or reward, because the transport service is part of the overall service by which the fees are charged.

If any one person who uses that bus service has paid for their right to be on it, including through fees to the University, then my judgment is that it would be subject to PSVAR.
I certainly think it is morally reprehensible for a university to procure such a service on non-PSVAR complaint vehicles.

Lucketts coaches have just purchased 3 11 plate B9 deckers and put extra seats in the wheelchair bay specifically for rail replacement work.

A vehicle can have seats installed in the wheelchair space and still be PSVAR compliant.

 

[Robertj21a]

Having evaluated everything I’ve read, im firmly in the camp that RRB should not have to be PSVAR compliant.

From how I interpret PSVAR only applies when the passenger pays the operator directly, otherwise all buses everywhere would have to be PSVAR, as every bus is running to some sort of schedule and nearly every bus is operated for reward of the operator in some way.

There’s a local uni service that is only run for uni students with none DDA stock. It runs to a schedule and the students have effectively paid for the service, so should this in your opinion be subject to service regulations, and if not, why not.

Lucketts coaches have just purchased 3 11 plate B9 deckers and put extra seats in the wheelchair bay specifically for rail replacement work.

No, PSVAR will apply wherever the passenger pays a fare in order to travel on a scheduled journey. Who he pays the fare to is irrelevant.

 

[Robertj21a]

I guess also, sometimes situations morph between the two. So for example, a landslide or failed bridge may be sudden and cause an emergency rail replacement bus, but it may take many months to repair and so the rail replacement bus becomes more long-term and more planned.In which case, I wonder why so many coaches in use as rail replacement buses in such circumstances are inaccessible at the moment.

Coaches that were first used on or after 1st January 2005 are subject to PSVAR now (if used on scheduled services at separate fares, as per the above.)

I had a quick look at the website of the main provider of coaches locally for Northern's rail replacement buses for e.g. their industrial action days and currently on Windermere. Over half of their coaches were manufactured after 2004. Unhelpfully, whilst their website lists whether each one has a toilet, air conditioning etc etc., it doesn't mention whether each coach is wheelchair accessible; but the pictures, and Northern's communications with me, suggests that they are not. That's good news. (I originally asked about buses and coaches, not just coaches.)The other 4 or 5 being accessible buses?

I don't think the PSVAR differentiates between situations where one bus, or several buses, run to the same schedule - my understanding is that PSVAR would apply to all the vehicles covering the one journey (provided it's got a published schedule etc.)

Yes, there may be occasions which morph between the two when circumstances change.

Coaches are in regular use because they're still allowed to be used ! They are also far more suitable where a significant volume of luggage is likely to be carried. If their main role with the operator is for school runs (!), or private hire, then the added rail replacement work may well be at reasonable prices too....... It is, at present, for the TOC to specify how many coaches need to be fully accessible but, in practice, I think the requirement is often met by having a compliant minibus/large taxi on standby.

Incidentally, I fail to see the need to continue references to *buses* - all these should now meet PSVAR legislation as the various deadlines have all been passed. It's only coaches that need to still be debated, and that's partly confused by the fact that operators still won't need to have compliant vehicles if they are only used on 'closed contract' work.

 

[D60]

With regard to the RRB operation during the Blackpool electrification blockade and the use of brand new Blackpool Palladian deckers on that service... There are 3 batches of these vehicles.. and the third batch was specifically ordered and delivered for use on that contract.. presumably in the full knowledge that fully PSVAR vehicles were required rather than what might still be hanging around in the back of the depot so to speak.. and in the knowledge that upon completion they would then be incorporated into the main fleet to allow for ongoing fleet replacement... This all being planned and accounted for very well in advance..

The current use of RRBs on certain B'pool Sth services is much more short term in nature.. but requires for an all-stations operation in and out of minor roads better suited to service bus rather than motorway coach..

 

[northwichcat]

Incidentally, I fail to see the need to continue references to *buses* - all these should now meet PSVAR legislation as the various deadlines have all been passed. It's only coaches that need to still be debated, and that's partly confused by the fact that operators still won't need to have compliant vehicles if they are only used on 'closed contract' work.

Non-accessible buses can still be legally used in an emergency provided the number of days the non-accessible vehicle is in service per year doesn't go over the maximum permitted number. So if you're an operator with accessible buses for normal services and step entry deckers for school contracts and a number of the accessible buses all have problems during the school summer holiday you could send out a couple of deckers to cover but if you used the deckers on regular services every day during the school summer holidays it would be illegal. However, even then if it's a contracted service using the deckers might not be permitted under the terms of the contract.

 

[Robertj21a]

Non-accessible buses can still be legally used in an emergency provided the number of days the non-accessible vehicle is in service per year doesn't go over the maximum permitted number. So if you're an operator with accessible buses for normal services and step entry deckers for school contracts and a number of the accessible buses all have problems during the school summer holiday you could send out a couple of deckers to cover but if you used the deckers on regular services every day during the school summer holidays it would be illegal. However, even then if it's a contracted service using the deckers might not be permitted under the terms of the contract.

Agreed. I was only referring to the buses used by operators on normal scheduled services, all of which must now meet PSVAR legislation. The 20 day 'heritage operation' allowance, and the 22 seats rules just add in a bit of complication !

 

[kingqueen]

Agreed. I was only referring to the buses used by operators on normal scheduled services, all of which must now meet PSVAR legislation. The 20 day 'heritage operation' allowance, and the 22 seats rules just add in a bit of complication !

On top of which, a "coach" is defined in law as a bus on which standing is not allowed, so some operators are removing standing straps and so on from buses and calling them coaches so they can continue to operate them until 2020,
And the whole question as to which school buses are "for hire or reward"
But I won't gabble on about that as I'm going off topic!

 

[northwichcat]

On top of which, a "coach" is defined in law as a bus on which standing is not allowed, so some operators are removing standing straps and so on from buses and calling them coaches so they can continue to operate them until 2020,

Stagecoach Lancashire used to use coaches which had grab handles for standing passengers additionally fitted on the Blackpool to Manchester service but they've since withdrawn those vehicles and the route. They seemed to get a lot of pass holders doing a short hop from Preston to Chorley which is probably why they were fitted.

 

[Qwerty133]

Longer distance rail replacement rarely occurs on more than 20 days in a calendar year so if people push this issue it is likely that at least some TOCs simply choose to use firms with a ready supply of older coaches which qualify for the heritage exemption.

 

[harz99]

I can't help thinking that if this was pushed to a test case, the outcome could easily be similar to that in the TPEX Mk3 coaches matter, that the railway would simply close for planned engineering with no RRB/RRC provided at all, thus disadvantaging everyone again. Would that outcome be legal, I don't know?

 

[221129]

It seems the logical outcome would be to not run RRBs to a timetable and run them on an ad hoc basis. Easy answer but a detriment to trying to plan a journey.

 

[Sybic26]

I have always understood that a service bus is defined as shown below.

a ‘bus’ is defined in the 1986 Regulations as a vehicle with more than 16 passenger seats but incapable of exceeding 60 mph; scheduled services are defined in Regulation 3 of the Bus service operators’ grant (England) regulations 2002, subsequently amended in later publication.

Therefore a PCV which can exceed 60mph is described as a coach.

Guidance from DFT

Bus and coach accessibility and the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000

Published 24 June 2005

02/1015), as amended

(SI 2 Improved bus access for disabled people

The powers in part 5 of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 (DDA) allow the government to make regulations requiring all new land-based public transport vehicles (trains, taxis, buses and coaches) to be accessible to disabled people, including those who need to remain in wheelchairs.

The regulations that govern access to service buses and coaches are known as the PSVAR. The PSVAR have been applied to all new buses and coaches which carry more than 22 passengers and are used on local or scheduled services since 31 December 2000.

This means that the service must also be registered with the relevant Office of the Traffic Commissioner.

All coaches must conform to PSVAR regulations after January 1 2020
Also refer to the following document:

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00542/SN00542.pdf

 

[Robertj21a]

Not wishing to stop an interesting discussion but could I suggest that any *general* issues about buses and coaches would be better placed on the Buses and Coaches section of this forum ?. It's understandable that rail replacement queries were initially posted on the rail forum but more detailed answers on the general bus and coach issues would be more likely on the dedicated forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach Lancashire used to use coaches which had grab handles for standing passengers additionally fitted on the Blackpool to Manchester service but they've since withdrawn those vehicles and the route. They seemed to get a lot of pass holders doing a short hop from Preston to Chorley which is probably why they were fitted.

No, it was just standard spec to have 8 grab handles for standees on the Stagecoach Express fleet at that time. The same coaches were used on the X5 (Oxford-Cambridge), probably the other X5 (Penrith-Keswick) and a load of the Scottish express routes.