Avanti and their current problems. What could be done to improve things?

[gazzaa2]

Is it possible things might settle down a bit in September? It's August and hot weather, bad industrial relations. Why would staff want to work if they don't have to (i.e. rest days)? Plus with energy bills going through the roof in October staff will want the extra money, particularly with more strike days looming.

 

[43066]

They have all decided to do this at the same time. So either there have been discussions between them ‘behind the scenes’, or alternatively it‘s a coincidence that several hundred people all independently chose to not do something they have been doing, at the same time.

That would be the same several hundred people who have become so incensed by their employer that they’ve voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action, yes? That’s suggests that, as a group, they’re not exactly motivated to go “above and beyond” at the moment!

RDW also isn’t spread evenly. At my depot roughly a third never do any, a third do some, a third do a lot. Within that final third there are a handful who do as much as pretty much the entire rest of the depot combined (we had a few with over 90 additional days worked last year - two of them will do as much work as three drivers only working their base roster).

It only takes a few from that final category to take a break from doing overtime to have a huge impact. Then add in the time of year, training delays due to Covid, training delays (and chaos) for what qualified drivers they can recruit, retirements etc. and it’s quite plausible that this could have happened without any kind of unofficial action.

 

[jfollows]

I think it's not entirely implausible that they mostly did it individually owing to the utterly disgusting attitude being displayed by the senior management, even if a few had originally talked together about it.

I agree with you, I've always felt that a successful relationship between employer and employee involves a bit of "give and take" on both sides, but there have been cases in my employment history in which I felt that the relationship became too one-sided in favour of the employer, and I've certainly withdrawn my labour when that's happened - I didn't go on strike or anything dramatic like that but it could have been the case that I had to attend my grandmother's funeral more than once instead of doing something work-related. My sort of attitude could easily have spread more widely had it been other than an isolated incidence of management stupidity, which seems to be more the case with Avanti currently.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Surely Grant Shapps can't ask or encourage Avanti to put out that kind of message to staff, its just be more of a desperate attempt to curry favour with the dft as the contract renewal is nigh.

 

[CAF397]

The Avanti MD will now report, either directly or indirectly, to the DfT in some form.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it's not entirely implausible that they mostly did it individually owing to the utterly disgusting attitude being displayed by the senior management, even if a few had originally talked together about it.

on the same day?

and coincidentally on the same day that another TOCs drivers all suddenly became unavailable for rest days, when that TOC has not displayed any senior management ‘attitude’?

That would be the same several hundred people who have become so incensed by their employer that they’ve voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action, yes?

Yes, they voted collectively to take action, which was quite properly discussed amongst them prior to and during the vote, and they decided collectively to do so, at the same time.

But when they all* decided to stop doing rest days, at the same time, that was all individual decisions

*accepting the point that not everyone does RDW.


Look at it another way. If the law permitted workers to individually decide to take strike action, how likely would it be that everyone choose the same day if the decision is taken individually?

 

[ymbongo]

When even 99% of the comments on Avanti's Facebook post with the contrived allegations of fake sickness and "unofficial strike" are disgusted with Avanti, it doesn't seem at all implausible to me that 99% of their drivers would feel the same way and decide, pretty much simultaneously, that they do not want to do anything above and beyond their contract for such a contemptible company. It would seem that the Train Managers feel exactly the same way but because they've already had 3? 4? strike days and loss of pay, some have decided to volunteer for the occasional bit of overtime.

I recall from Monday to Friday office/factory jobs where sometimes a "jolly' would be organised among the staff for a Saturday day out - I'm most surprised to read here that this would be frowned upon and seen as unofficial strike action when ported across to a railway setting.

 

[mmh]

Look at it another way. If the law permitted workers to individually decide to take strike action, how likely would it be that everyone choose the same day if the decision is taken individually?

The law does permit workers to individually decide not to work.

I'm afraid it seems you don't really know much about what you're talking about!

 

[Bald Rick]

The law does permit workers to individually decide not to work.

I'm afraid it seems you don't really know much about what you're talking about!

You know what I meant.

 

[43066]

Yes, they voted collectively to take action, which was quite properly discussed amongst them prior to and during the vote, and they decided collectively to do so, at the same time.

But when they all* decided to stop doing rest days, at the same time, that was all individual decisions

*accepting the point that not everyone does RDW.


Look at it another way. If the law permitted workers to individually decide to take strike action, how likely would it be that everyone choose the same day if the decision is taken individually?

I’ve explained above how they haven’t *all* decided to stop doing the rest days and why I don’t think this seems at all implausible given the atmosphere and current shortages at Avanti. I could easily see similar happening where I work.

It’s a little odd to compare it to people randomly deciding to take action on the same day, that isn’t the case at all! No doubt many have simply decided not to do any overtime during the strike period, so that’s hardly a miraculous coincidence? You said yourself some Avanti drivers are still doing overtime, in any case.

It’s utterly low of Avanti management to make accusations of “unofficial industrial action” without something more substantial in the way of evidence and this is guaranteed to make the current situation far worse and destroy goodwill long into the future. Perhaps that’s the intention…

When even 99% of the comments on Avanti's Facebook post with the contrived allegations of fake sickness and "unofficial strike" are disgusted with Avanti, it doesn't seem at all implausible to me that 99% of their drivers would feel the same way and decide, pretty much simultaneously, that they do not want to do anything above and beyond their contract for such a contemptible company. It would seem that the Train Managers feel exactly the same way but because they've already had 3? 4? strike days and loss of pay, some have decided to volunteer for the occasional bit of overtime.

Yes indeed. As I said above if I worked for Avanti I would be doing the absolute bare minimum, no favours to help out and no overtime whatsoever.

 

[Bald Rick]

You said yourself some Avanti drivers are still doing overtime, in any case.

I don’t think I did…

 

[43066]

I don’t think I did…

I assumed that’s what you meant by:

What has happened, suddenly, is that Avanti traincrew have now (almost) completely stopped working rest days.

Which implies some are still being worked.

 

[Bald Rick]

I assumed that’s what you meant by:



Which implies some are still being worked.

ah, ok

 

[muz379]

Part of your first sentence is not correct as I understand it. If a load of staff just up sticks and went to the football, the employer would potentially have reason to challenge it. And that is certainly not going to be on any union ballot paper. If however RDW is included, then organising not to work it is within scope of the ballot.

Then I think your understanding is incorrect .

I didnt say a load of staff just up sticks and went to the football . Usually when there is a major football tournement on like say euro 2020 when England got to the finals played on a sunday there would have been a huge shortage of available volunteers to work on that sunday .
Ballot or no ballot if something like that were to happen again then there will predictably be a huge reduction in the availability of volunteers for rest day working . This reduction is not "unofficial strike action" or secondary action its just a perfectly understandable rection to external factors .

And regardless , even if the staff have organised among themselves with their unions involvement to withdraw rest day working without declaring it properly in a way which an injunction could be sought against , that is still not "unofficial strike action" , withdrawing RDW legally or otherwise is not "strike action" it is "action short of a strike" . What Avanti are actually saying by using those words makes it sound like drivers are not to turning up on normally rostered days of work .

But, and this is an important but, unions need to ensure their members stick to the letter of the ballot. And thus far all we don't know the exact nature of Avanti's allegations. They clearly believe there is an infringement, but if it is them just trying it on, or if they indeed have found one (could well be some weird loophole, that has happened before) we can only wait to see.

I genuinely don't think they do believe there has been an infringement , if they did have reason to believe so then they (supported by the DFT) would be straight to the courts , they wouldn't be tweeting about it theyd have kept their powder dry and challenged the ballot in court , look at the other ballots that have been threatened with legal challenge the TOCs dont tweet about it theyve just initiated legal action . Once that court challenge is underway then ASLEF are unable to rely on the ballot to call any official strike action or action short .

You are muddling the terminology, which causes confusion.

A committed Sunday is contractual, (It is part of agreed contract hours) and possibly by chance the Sunday pay rate just happens to be the same as an overtime rate, but importantly it is not overtime.

Not correct ,

Committed sundays is a way of contracting employees to work sundays that are outside the working week and in addition to the contracted hours (usually 35) , if they are outside of the working week then they are overtime and for example if you are off sick or on a week of annual leave including a booked sunday you don't get paid for it , they are exluded from pensionable pay as well . The committment usually includes caveats that if cover can be found then the booked staff member can be released from their committment to work .