Avanti and their current problems. What could be done to improve things?

[London Trains]

At this point, they may as well introduce a further reduced emergency timetable since they simply cant run a half decent service. Given the Commonwealth games Birmingham probably needs 2tph, so I would have:

1tph Euston to Manchester (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)

1tp2h Euston to Liverpool (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn)

1tp2h Euston to Glasgow (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

And a North Wales shuttle.

After the Commonwealth games the Manchester could just run direct from MK to Stoke as normal to further reduce services.

 

[The Planner]

At this point, they may as well introduce a further reduced emergency timetable since they simply cant run a half decent service. Given the Commonwealth games Birmingham probably needs 2tph, so I would have:

1tph Euston to Manchester (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport)

1tp2h Euston to Liverpool (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn)

1tp2h Euston to Glasgow (MK, Rugby, Coventry, Bham Intl, Bham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolves, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell)

And a North Wales shuttle.

After the Commonwealth games the Manchester could just run direct from MK to Stoke as normal to further reduce services.

It couldn't possibly carry the passenger loads. Why have you binned off Watford on all these?

 

[London Trains]

It couldn't possibly carry the passenger loads. Why have you binned off Watford on all these?

Completely agree but it's still much better than Avanti completely abandoning some routes for most of the day.

 

[43096]

Completely agree but it's still much better than Avanti completely abandoning some routes for most of the day.

You’d be better just shutting the service at that point.

 

[The Planner]

Completely agree but it's still much better than Avanti completely abandoning some routes for most of the day.

It isn't though, what you are suggesting is effectively 2tph. You just push passengers onto Chiltern, TPE etc who have their own customers to deal with.

 

[express93]

The rumour mill from what I’m hearing from drivers at Avanti seems to suggest a 4tph Euston timetable from the 16/08 if drivers continue not to work RDs. It was put forward as more of a threat from what I’ve been told.

 

[Huntergreed]

The rumour mill from what I’m hearing from drivers at Avanti seems to suggest a 4tph Euston timetable from the 16/08 if drivers continue not to work RDs. It was put forward as more of a threat from what I’ve been told.

To be honest, if that’s what’s needed then that seems to be the most sensible option. Better to run 4tph and have no/little cancellations than run 6-7tph which looks better on paper but 4 only run, making it less reliable overall.

 

[MattRat]

It isn't though, what you are suggesting is effectively 2tph. You just push passengers onto Chiltern, TPE etc who have their own customers to deal with.

And when TPE fails as it often does nowadays? What then?

 

[Starmill]

Also , would Manchester to Euston to BNS to Euston to Manchester work? I know on GWR we can do upto 8 hours in the seat in a shift, and at Plymouth frequently do circa 7 when driving London and back....

That would almost certainly take you over driver's maximum time. However a Manchester train manager may do that for example.

 

[ExRes]

I hope ASLEF don't get forgotten when it comes to parceling out the blame, for 20 plus years now the union has been agreeing to RDW and that's been keeping the TOCs alive and able to ignore their responsibility to have full staffing levels, what happens when the manure hits the fan? it's the drivers refusing to work RDs and OT who are to blame, ASLEF should have refused to sign all and any RDW agreements for that reason alone

 

[the sniper]

When qualified drivers see their colleagues joining and promptly leaving again, yes, they will have a problem getting more applicants.

As for the second paragraph, it’s hardly relevant, is it? They also have 12 hour movements of spare and work five day weeks with a week off every four weeks - so a good deal more flexible than other TOCs in other ways.

This is what I thought of when "working practices are absolutely crazy, and need changing" was mentioned... I thought it was appreciated that West Coast Drivers were good sports when it came to selling out 'archaic' practices, as such today their T&Cs/agreements compare fairly poorly to some local TOCs. I've known people go there and somewhat regret it, having not fully appreciated what they were giving up for the money. The double tripping issue seems like another distraction in the grand scheme of things, much like walking time was, though HS2 would change that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope ASLEF don't get forgotten when it comes to parceling out the blame, for 20 plus years now the union has been agreeing to RDW and that's been keeping the TOCs alive and able to ignore their responsibility to have full staffing levels, what happens when the manure hits the fan? it's the drivers refusing to work RDs and OT who are to blame, ASLEF should have refused to sign all and any RDW agreements for that reason alone

Some drivers like RDW (though also like having the ability to withdraw it to make a point), though.

A pure safety view would be that it should be banned as drivers need to be fully rested, with overtime solely paid in relation to where delays unavoidably extend a shift.

 

[43066]

I hope ASLEF don't get forgotten when it comes to parceling out the blame, for 20 plus years now the union has been agreeing to RDW and that's been keeping the TOCs alive and able to ignore their responsibility to have full staffing levels, what happens when the manure hits the fan? it's the drivers refusing to work RDs and OT who are to blame, ASLEF should have refused to sign all and any RDW agreements for that reason alone

But it’s the TOCs who have been asking ASLEF to agree to sanctioning RDW to suit their own purposes. ASLEF have consistently been in favour of more recruitment, Sundays inside and no reliance on overtime. It’s therefore hardly ASLEF’s fault when the TOCs can’t run their service due to not having enough staff!

 

[duncanp]

Some drivers like RDW (though also like having the ability to withdraw it to make a point), though.

A pure safety view would be that it should be banned as drivers need to be fully rested.

The problem with banning rest day working is that you can't control what a driver does on his or her day off.

They might do something physically demanding which leaves them tired when they are due to return to work the following day.

They might even have a part time or second job, unless there is a clause in their contract of employment which prohibits this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with banning rest day working is that you can't control what a driver does on his or her day off.

They might do something physically demanding which leaves them tired when they are due to return to work the following day.

They might even have a part time or second job, unless there is a clause in their contract of employment which prohibits this.

There is that, but at least they're getting a break from driving a train*. My job (IT) involves a lot of thinking, and even if I go and run myself ragged up several mountains on a weekend I'm still refreshed when I return to it on Mondays.

* OK, OK, a small number might volunteer to drive on a preserved railway, but most won't.

 

[43066]

A pure safety view would be that it should be banned as drivers need to be fully rested.

It’s still subject to fatigue index/Hidden, albeit it’s certainly possible to do enough that you’re far too tired to be at work, yes.

They might do something physically demanding which leaves them tired when they are due to return to work the following day.

They might even have a part time or second job, unless there is a clause in their contract of employment which prohibits this.

As a driver you can’t drink ten pints on a day off if you’re working the next day. You also can’t knacker yourself out if you’re booking on at 0400 next morning!

If you go fatigued - which you’re perfectly entitled to do if you need to - it’ll go down like a lead balloon if it isn’t for a good reason and only done very occasionally.

There is that, but at least they're getting a break from driving a train*. My job (IT) involves a lot of thinking, and even if I go and run myself ragged up several mountains on a weekend I'm still refreshed when I return to it on Mondays.

Exactly.

Albeit with this job doing anything which means you can’t sleep properly the night before is pretty reckless if you have an early book on and a long day of work. The concentration is *intense* and there’s no opportunity to take a break other than at prescribed times.

It isn’t intellectually challenging, but maintaining sustained concentration for long periods is actually more knackering than other jobs I’ve done which involved a lot of thinking/problem solving, but I could go for a walk around the office, switch to doing something else for a while, make a coffee etc. whenever I needed to.

 

[SJN]

I hope ASLEF don't get forgotten when it comes to parceling out the blame, for 20 plus years now the union has been agreeing to RDW and that's been keeping the TOCs alive and able to ignore their responsibility to have full staffing levels, what happens when the manure hits the fan? it's the drivers refusing to work RDs and OT who are to blame, ASLEF should have refused to sign all and any RDW agreements for that reason alone

There are many reasons staff refuse RD’s or OT. It’s summer, the kids are off. I know plenty who work a lot of RD all winter, then not at all during summer. You can’t blame people for wanting to take their days off or finish at the time they are supposed to.

 

[childwallblues]

It seems to me you have an axe to grid. Virgin aren't coming back.

The other issues you highlight look like:

• a poorly worded communication,
• a train off route ( running via Crewe rather than Stoke - perhaps route singing issues)
• the London > Preston crew don't sign Blackpool and no one is available at Preston who does.

Preston are probably putting all their resource into operating EUS-GLC/EDB.

 

[Jimini]

[snip] and to instead use Chiltern to Birmingham

Are you on commission?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you on commission?

No, I am just recommending people don't use Avanti at present. Partly because it's likely the service will be bad, and partly because they don't deserve peoples' money until they sort their mess out. (Likely I suppose that they'll end up paying it back through Delay Repay anyway, I suppose).

 

[bramling]

I hope ASLEF don't get forgotten when it comes to parceling out the blame, for 20 plus years now the union has been agreeing to RDW and that's been keeping the TOCs alive and able to ignore their responsibility to have full staffing levels, what happens when the manure hits the fan? it's the drivers refusing to work RDs and OT who are to blame, ASLEF should have refused to sign all and any RDW agreements for that reason alone

If the TOCs are daft enough to rely on RDW, knowing full well that it leaves them vulnerable, then it really is more fool them.

Unions would prefer full coverage, as that means more members.

 

[jfollows]

If the TOCs are daft enough to rely on RDW, knowing full well that it leaves them vulnerable, then it really is more fool them.

Unions would prefer full coverage, as that means more members.

Passengers would prefer full coverage also, as that means more trains.

 

[whoosh]

A lot of double trips happen on the MML. Most Sheffield based crew go to London (2h), then a round trip to Nottingham, then back to Sheffield with an hours break in London thrown in. I can’t speak for Avanti because I know nothing about route knowledge but would it be possible for, say, Manchester to London, then a round trip to Birmingham, then back up to Manchester, or vice versa?

I saw an amended Train Manager's diagram one bank holiday weekend:

Pass ECS Derby - Sheffield
Sheffield- St Pancras
St Pancras - Sheffield
Sheffield - St Pancras
St Pancras - Sheffield
Assist Sheffield - Derby

Nearly 12 hours.
Don't know if it's still the case but Train Managers had 'sold' their PNBs in restructuring and took breaks as and when able to.


There's different parameters for drivers, and none based at Sheffield.

It also seems to me like there are a lot of loopholes in contracts that mean staff don't have to work and still get paid. Now, maybe working conditions are so bad that they see it as reasonable to abuse their contracts, but I'd prefer them striking. Loopholes should be closed, and things like work conditions sorted through proper channels.

Can you let us all know what they are please? Sounds great.

 

[bramling]

Passengers would prefer full coverage also, as that means more trains.

The other thing to bear in mind in respect of RDW. LU doesn't do RDW, and they similarly suffer in particular at weekends.

 

[RJ]

Can you let us all know what they are please? Sounds great.

I think there are quite a lot of people on the railway who are well aware of them and taking full advantage already.

 

[43066]

Can you let us all know what they are please? Sounds great.

I think there are quite a lot of people on the railway who are well aware of them and taking full advantage already.

Ah yes, it’s all down to “loopholes in contracts”, although you can’t actually name any. It somehow *has* to be down to the awful railway staff doesn’t it?!

Laughable.

 

[the sniper]

I think there are quite a lot of people on the railway who are well aware of them and taking full advantage already.

Which ones are causing the issues we see on Avanti?

Is it walking time?

 

[RJ]

Ah yes, it’s all down to “loopholes in contracts”, although you can’t actually name any. It somehow has to be down to the awful railway staff doesn’t it.

Laughable.

There are numerous people on the railways who are on full pay without having to turn up to work. I know people personally who do it because lots of other people are doing it or because they've felt slighted by a manager.

Which ones are causing the issues we see on Avanti?

Is it walking time?

I'm the wrong person to ask!

 

[the sniper]

There are numerous people on the railways who are on full pay without having to turn up to work. I know people personally who do it because lots of other people are doing it or because they've felt slighted by a manager.

So the same minority who play games with sick leave in most industries/sectors outside the railway, which are about as equally irrelevant to the issues on Avanti. Nice distraction attempt though.

You could have at least said they're paid while being in Greggs on their break.

I'm the wrong person to ask!

But you speak so informatively on the subject...

 

[43066]

There are numerous people on the railways who are on full pay without having to turn up to work. I know people personally who do it because lots of other people are doing it or because they've felt slighted by a manager.

Sorry to disappoint you, that’s a conspiracy theory.

Take it from someone who actually works on the railway: the only people paid not to turn up to work are those who are off sick (subject to the attendance at work policy) or on annual leave, exactly the same as any other employer in any other industry. You’ve either swallowed some nonsense you’ve been told, or you’re simply making things up.

I'm the wrong person to ask!

So why are you the right person to talk about it on here, then?