Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[jfollows]

The "explanation" reads pretty badly to me also - Avanti made a mistake but go on to blame passengers for "not adhering to the Train Manager's instruction".
Well, if I'd got off the train in the first place and been "instructed" to get back on again to travel to Penrith for a taxi back to Oxenholme I know what I'd have said and done.
It just looks like an attempt to blame its passengers (paying customers) by Avanti which doesn't really surprise me all that much given all the other people they currently want to blame for their own incompetence.

 

[43096]

The "explanation" reads pretty badly to me also - Avanti made a mistake but go on the blame passengers for "not adhering to the Train Manager's instruction".
Well, if I'd got off the train in the first place and been "instructed" to get back on again to travel to Penrith for a taxi back to Oxenholme I know what I'd have said and done.
It just looks like an attempt to blame its passengers (paying customers) by Avanti which doesn't really surprise me all that much given all the other people they currently want to blame for their own incompetence.

It's classic WorstGroup - they never, ever take responsibility for their own shortcomings. It's always someone else to blame - the staff (e.g. comments on Avanti rest day working), the passengers (as in this case), or something/someone else (the old "dog ate my homework" excuses).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Without wanting to dive too deeply into the murky waters of what-iffery, this could have ended up being a very serious incident if someone had ended up under a passing train. I know in the airline industry critical decisions and changes to plans are not instigated until everyone in the loop has been given the details, and everyone confirmed by reading said decisions back. Its by no means 100% perfect, but means that as many scenarios as possible have checks built into them to so that everyone should be aware of what is happening. I don't know if there is similar in the rail industry, but if not it might be something to consider. Yes it will mean more work, but it will also help reduce confused messaging when things need to be got right first time.

That is a good point and some useful ideas.

In the case of the railways the best example of a dangerous result is when passengers give up waiting on a failed train/service and end up venturing onto the running lines. Exposing themselves to danger and causing even more delay. Something I would like to think I would never consider. In the case of Oxenholm passengers might have decided to walk along the track looking for the inevitable hole in the fence. Now I could be tempted !. The airline equivalent is a lot less likely as planes do not sit still in the sky !. Although how long would you wait in a plane on the tarmac ?. I did six hours wait but that was while we waited to take off otherwise I might have been inclined to jump - the doors were open as it was very stuffy.

 

[trainophile]

By the time a key holder has been located and informed, got themselves ready and driven out to the station then most people would have probably taken measures into their own hands.

I'm thinking of old or infirm people for whom climbing over the railings would not be an option!

 

[jfollows]

I'm thinking of old or infirm people for whom climbing over the railings would not be an option!

It wouldn't have been an option for me, for sure, I'm both old and infirm I guess being 60 and having had a stroke which affects my left side ....

 

[zwk500]

I'm thinking of old or infirm people for whom climbing over the railings would not be an option!

If there were vulnerable people there I'd have probably called 999 immediately on discovering the exit was locked. Waiting for the keyholder could take a very long time and even with the summer we've had, being stuck on an open platform in the middle of the night is not advisable for anybody.

 

[scrapy]

I didn't even think Pendolinos could run without dispatch due to their length, so I'm surprised Oxenholme was even unstaffed.

I've certainly known a Pendolino be dispatched from Tamworth without platform staff. I've also been on on that was guard dispatched from Kidsgrove during disruption although only a local door was opened.

 

[MotCO]

Because, despite what our government think. It's not a legal requirement to work overtime.

I wasn't suggesting that they had to stay on indefinitely, just that should they have checked that arrangements were in place to sort out any passengers wanting to alight. If they had seen the Not to Stop notice, then they needed to take no further action.

It does seem as though the fault could lie in poor communications. Surely it is not beyond the whit of man to automate the process, possibly along the following lines:

A Not to Stop (or indeed Stop) notice is issued electronically - can you leave messages on GSM?
The initial message is coloured yellow.
All parties need to confirm receipt by pressing a button or similar.
Once all recipeints of the message have confirmed, the message turns red. This is done automatically without human intervention.

The yellow message puts people on alert that a change is in the offing, and to look out for the red message.

(Happy to be shot down - I am not on the railways )

 

[InOban]

It is quite common for a gate to have a lock which allows the gate to be opened from the inside but need a code to get in from the outside.

 

[Elecman]

It is quite common for a gate to have a lock which allows the gate to be opened from the inside but need a code to get in from the outside.

This gate is locked with a standard railway padlock

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I'm thinking of old or infirm people for whom climbing over the railings would not be an option!

Assuming the railways have different rules but in most other sectors the on call must be on site with 20 to 30 mins of the call being made

 

[zwk500]

Assuming the railways have different rules but in most other sectors the on call must be on site with 20 to 30 mins of the call being made

But a locked up station wouldn't be an on-call situation, because it shouldn't be locked until its certain nobody will be using it

 

[Skiddaw]

It would take a lot of persuasion to get me back on the train. My approach is I am where I want to be and it cannot be that hard to get out. My first thoughts would be to perceive the risk of failure being greater relying on alternative transport back from Penrith. I would even expect to be greeted with incredulity or indifference at Penrith. Better have my fate in my own hands and have more chance of getting home on time. Given time I am not sure I would re-consider but if I did by then the train is long gone.

To repeat what I said in the previous thread, whilst the staff at Penrith are lovely (they really are- always helpful, friendly and cheerful) there's no way on Earth that they could have magicked up sufficient taxis to ferry 30+ people to Oxenholme (or anywhere else for that matter). There's not many cabbies in Penrith at the best of times and by that time of night they'd all have hung up their keys and been tucked up in bed.

I'd have got off at Oxenholme and climbed over the fence had it been me (and if I didn't live close to Penrith)

 

[Surreytraveller]

But a locked up station wouldn't be an on-call situation, because it shouldn't be locked until its certain nobody will be using it

A locked-up station that shouldn't be locked is an on-call situation. That's the whole point of on-call - to deal with situations that have arisen

Assuming the railways have different rules but in most other sectors the on call must be on site with 20 to 30 mins of the call being made

The railway has no requirement for on call people to answer the phone, let alone turn up on site

 

[DelW]

To repeat what I said in the previous thread, whilst the staff at Penrith are lovely (they really are- always helpful, friendly and cheerful) there's no way on Earth that they could have magicked up sufficient taxis to ferry 30+ people to Oxenholme (or anywhere else for that matter). There's not many cabbies in Penrith at the best of times and by that time of night they'd all have hung up their keys and been tucked up in bed.

I'd have got off at Oxenholme and climbed over the fence had it been me (and if I didn't live close to Penrith)

That would have been my biggest worry in that situation as well. Having followed the TM's instructions one might end up spending much of the night in Penrith.

The Avanti director's excuses say the passengers should have gone to Penrith where "passengers could arrange transport home" - with no confirmation that Avanti would arrange or prepay for that. There might well have been passengers without the wherewithal to pay for an expensive 30 mile taxi journey in the middle of the night, even if taxis could be found.

Overall it shows again how arrogant and unwilling to admit their company's serial failings Avanti's top brass are. Hopefully she will follow her ex-boss into oblivion.

 

[northwichcat]

Why do they lock the station up when it's unstaffed? There are hundreds of unstaffed stations across the country and trains call there without issue? I'm sure Avanti call at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth outside of the staffing hours (maybe Sandwell & Dudley too?), what's different at Oxenholme?

Probably just convention, but (unlike Lancaster if that wasn't locked up) I really can't see a crime issue developing, it's literally in the middle of a field.

I think some conventions need updating. Northern seem to have a policy of locking gates providing direct access to platforms if the ticket office is open. Presumably that dates back to when the ticket office was the only way of acquiring a ticket, so was to encourage people to buy before boarding. But now people have e-tickets and there's TVMs on the platforms. It doesn't usually cause any issues, other than passengers having to use a different entry/exit depending on the time they are using the station. That does cause confusion, especially if the ticket office is locked when it's supposed to be open. We did have an issue with a relief member of Knutsford one morning. He locked the gate on arrival but then didn't open the ticket office immediately and a train arrived in the time between those two events happening!

The railway has no requirement for on call people to answer the phone, let alone turn up on site

A non-rail related example. At one of my old work places a security company had the number of an employee who lived around the corner, who they could phone if the alarm was activated out-of-hours. He had no requirement to do anything if he was called but if he didn't respond, the police would be called. The idea of having the employee as the first contact was to prevent any police call outs for false alarms.

Given that there were people trapped in the station, shouldn't no answer from a rail employee resulted in the emergency services being brought in and Avanti being billed for their attendance?

 

[BrianW]

A couple of observations:

- the 'incident' was getting on for three weeks ago now. Is there not a 'definitive' timeline of who did (or did not) do what when, not to attach blame but for learning from.

- several contributors here have put forward good proposals e.g re confirming understandings and actions; gate locks; concern for (we) aged, unable to climb fences; 'help points'; 'tannoy'; 'gold controller'; ...

- that many who are relatively new to the thread find it understandably difficult to search back to what has already been posted (that's not a criticism, just an observation)

- I note the tendency for 'management' to blame others, including customers; that's not good and says something about an organisation in trouble. Natasha Grice, Chief Exec,* should not be expected/ encouraged/ allowed to leave- hopefully this will have been at least a learning experience; there's an opening for MD!

* EDIT- silly me, 'interpreting' CEx as Chief Exec- what Chief Exec would have penned such a letter or cleared a draft written by someone else or used these words in an interview; clearly someone with the customer's best interests at heart, as recognised at the highest levels:

Avanti set to have their contract renewed despite timetable chaos - reports

Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, said Avanti was in 'last chance saloon' yesterday after weeks of chaos.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Howardh]

I'm thinking of old or infirm people for whom climbing over the railings would not be an option!

It wouldn't have been an option for me, for sure, I'm both old and infirm I guess being 60 and having had a stroke which affects my left side ....

If they had gone to Penrith, then there's a fair chance they would be left alone (outside?) waiting for alternative transport which may/may not arrive and may/may not have been suitable for wheelchairs, whereas at Oxenholme someone with difficulties may well be being met, and should they not be able to leave the building 999 could be called to assist?

If that were the case (goint to Penrith), what responsibility would the train gaurd have; especially since - if running on time and expected Oxenholme call - he might be unaware of customer's needs?

 

[DelW]

If that were the case (goint to Penrith), what responsibility would the train gaurd have; especially since - if running on time and expected Oxenholme call - he might be unaware of customer's needs?

The letter quoted by the OP states that the train in question was running 100 minutes late.

 

[Dr Hoo]

In Post #40 @Elecman helpfully confirms that the gate was locked with a “standard railway padlock”. [Takes me back to ‘37s’ (the key number, not the locomotive class) on the Southern decades ago.] Is there any reason why ‘guards’ aren’t issued with these for just such a situation (including Blackburn, Knutsford, etc.)?

 

[Taunton]

The train manager said that the train would continue to Penrith, where the passengers could arrange transport home. This caused anger until a National Rail worker arrived with a key.

"There should have been a 'not to stop' order issued for Oxenholme, but unfortunately the Train Manager and Driver were not made aware of this instruction. This is an extremely rare situation.

"The Train Manager requested the passengers to reboard the train for travel onto the next station - Penrith - for rail replacement transport.

"Unfortunately, only some of the customers adhered to the Train Manager's instruction. While the majority complied - a minority of people refused to reboard the service and instead looked to exit the station by their own means."

What an appalling bit of victim blaming. The passengers had got to where they wanted to go, quite possibly they had family who had come to meet them on the other side of the fence, then told to get back on the train to remote Penrith, where "the passengers could arrange transport home". Wonderful. But I'm already home, just on the other side of a gate.

This is not the army with recruits; this is a supposedly customer-focused business. I suggest that "Natasha Grice", supposedly the "Customer Experience Director", considers her position, if that's how she's going to speak about her customers ...

Incidentally, what time did the "compliant majority" get home from Penrith?

 

[jfollows]

The letter quoted by the OP states that the train in question was running 100 minutes late.

Just to capture this in case it hasn't been done elsewhere: (94 minutes late arriving in Oxenholme; 109 minutes late leaving).

 

[Snow1964]

There is a bit of an assumption that people live by Oxenholme station, some might have had their cars there. Others might even have lived few miles away, so a trip to Penrith, then if you can find transport get a trip back, then for some might even have had to drive part the way towards Penrith.

I don’t understand why a simple instruction, of close gate but don’t lock it was given to station staff. If it is normally locked even troublemakers and vandals probably wouldn’t have tried the gate.

The daft thing is about 1000 stations are never locked up and if you want to wander onto a platform at 3am and sit on a platform seat you can (even if you would have to wait hours for a train). My local station you can enter, stroll around platforms, watch the overnight freight trains and early morning empty stock workings etc if wanted to. So if GWR allow it, why don’t Avanti.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's classic WorstGroup - they never, ever take responsibility for their own shortcomings. It's always someone else to blame - the staff (e.g. comments on Avanti rest day working), the passengers (as in this case), or something/someone else (the old "dog ate my homework" excuses).

The person sending the letter in this case has been with ICWC for a long time. She was at Virgin when I worked there about 15 years ago.

 

[trainophile]

Can't have been much fun for those going all the way to Glasgow either, arriving two hours late when onward transport would be practically non-existent.

 

[43096]

The person sending the letter in this case has been with ICWC for a long time. She was at Virgin when I worked there about 15 years ago.

Ask yourself this: would Virgin have sent a letter than in effect blamed the passengers?

 

[MotCO]

The Avanti director's excuses say the passengers should have gone to Penrith where "passengers could arrange transport home" -

I missed this earlier.

Why couldn't Avanti have arranged it? Talk about abrogating their responsibilities. (Probably because they knew none would be available!) At least they could have phoned ahead and got any taxis waiting for the train at Penrith.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ask yourself this: would Virgin have sent a letter than in effect blamed the passengers?

They wouldn't have sent a letter at all.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't have been much fun for those going all the way to Glasgow either, arriving two hours late when onward transport would be practically non-existent.

When I was on a Virgin service that was delayed by 2 hours and was one of the last services of the day, the train manager came through multiple times and checked who was intending to make onward connections and whether anyone needed to revise their plans e.g. by alighting at a different station. Hopefully, that train manager was following a standard procedure and she wasn't going above and beyond the minimum expected.

 

[Skiddaw]

If I'd been one of the Oxenholme Thirty I'd be absolutely furious at the tone of that letter.