Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[kkong]

So it's an emergency exit only.

How many passengers would even know it's there at the far end of platform 4?

 

[Carlisle]

So it's an emergency exit only.

How many passengers would even know it's there at the far end of platform 4?

I agree, just suggesting had something similar existed at Oxenholme that train crew or remote announcements could’ve assisted with, it probably would’ve been preferable to a taxi back from Penrith for most passengers.

 

[Wolfie]

That would have been my biggest worry in that situation as well. Having followed the TM's instructions one might end up spending much of the night in Penrith.

The Avanti director's excuses say the passengers should have gone to Penrith where "passengers could arrange transport home" - with no confirmation that Avanti would arrange or prepay for that. There might well have been passengers without the wherewithal to pay for an expensive 30 mile taxi journey in the middle of the night, even if taxis could be found.

Overall it shows again how arrogant and unwilling to admit their company's serial failings Avanti's top brass are. Hopefully she will follow her ex-boss into oblivion.

Avanti are a pathetic excuse of a company. An utter disgrace. Their senior management should bow their heads in shame not flap their gobs spouting utter BS. If said director wants to improve the railway she should resign forthwith and take all of the other deadbeat wasters with her.

Ask yourself this: would Virgin have sent a letter than in effect blamed the passengers?

Too damned right. Given how protective of the brand Branson is he would have been demanding heads.

I missed this earlier.

Why couldn't Avanti have arranged it? Talk about abrogating their responsibilities. (Probably because they knew none would be available!) At least they could have phoned ahead and got any taxis waiting for the train at Penrith.

Absolutely. They are utterly useless.

 

[6Gman]

I simply don’t believe anyone would actively contact an MP, of all people, in this kind of situation. If anything perhaps he read about the incident unfolding on Twitter and decided to muscle in for some likes.

Call me cynical but I also simply don’t believe politicians of the cold blooded, self serving, insect-like variety we have in the U.K.can so much as break wind without something being in it for them!

On the first point I can well imagine constituents of Farron doing so, or at the very least ringing one of their councillors who would then ring Farron. This is an area with (relatively speaking) lots of councillors, small wards and significant personal votes. It's not some anonymous place where nobody knows their councillors or can name their M.P.

You are entitled to your cynicism about politicians but - from long experience - I would say they are not all like that.

And, having met Tim Farron on a couple of occasions, I certainly would (political opinions aside) put him in the "good guys" section.

 

[Wolfie]

Therein lies the problem.

There is absolutely no chance the taxis would have been provided in a timely manner (if at all) at Penrith. Penrith is too small to have enough taxis. The only way you'd get enough taxis at Penrith is by asking a taxi firm from Carlisle or Preston/Lancaster to send some there. The same issue would be there at Oxenholme for the Windermere passengers (rather than those for Kendal who could mostly just walk, it's not that far and is downhill), which is why Lancaster would be the right place.

This situation just showed utter unthinking contempt for passengers, which is becoming increasingly common.

Re your last para the only answer for passengers is litigate, litigate, litigate. Sue for absolutely everything every time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As per my previous posts, I am under some understanding it was CAPE'd at Preston, I unable to find details, I just remember it was unless I confusing it with something else.
Hence the confusion, cancelled then reinstated and no stop order from control etc..
If it wasn't cancelled and re-instated I'd put money on control not knowing Oxenholme would be locked up.

Ah OK, I see your point that it appears to have originally been cancelled North of Preston.

 

[DelW]

On the first point I can well imagine constituents of Farron doing so, or at the very least ringing one of their councillors who would then ring Farron. This is an area with (relatively speaking) lots of councillors, small wards and significant personal votes. It's not some anonymous place where nobody knows their councillors or can name their M.P.

You are entitled to your cynicism about politicians but - from long experience - I would say they are not all like that.

And, having met Tim Farron on a couple of occasions, I certainly would (political opinions aside) put him in the "good guys" section.

Post #142 quoted the full Twitter sequence. The mother of one of the passengers (who himself climbed out over the gates) sent a tweet to Avanti as the incident was occurring, and copied it to Tim Farron with a request to raise it in Parliament. He then contacted local emergency services to try to get the gates opened for the other passengers. Whether that speeded up the release or not isn't clear, but he was involved from the outset.

 

[Falcon1200]

Given how protective of the brand Branson is he would have been demanding heads.

The incident was a shambles, and Avanti's 'explanation' is pathetic, but whose heads should roll? Senior management who were no doubt tucked up in bed at the time, or the Controllers, Traincrew and station staff actually involved (but not necessarily to blame)?

You are entitled to your cynicism about politicians but - from long experience - I would say they are not all like that.

Indeed, very early in my Control career I took a call from the late Tam Dalyell MP on behalf of some delayed constituents, I was able to explain what was being done for them and he could not have been more polite or understanding. And years later my local MP assisted when the Council threatened to seize my possessions for non-payment of Council Tax (even after I had sent them bank statements showing payments to them every month!)

 

[Wolfie]

The incident was a shambles, and Avanti's 'explanation' is pathetic, but whose heads should roll? Senior management who were no doubt tucked up in bed at the time, or the Controllers, Traincrew and station staff actually involved (but not necessarily to blame)?



Indeed, very early in my Control career I took a call from the late Tam Dalyell MP on behalf of some delayed constituents, I was able to explain what was being done for them and he could not have been more polite or understanding. And years later my local MP assisted when the Council threatened to seize my possessions for non-payment of Council Tax (even after I had sent them bank statements showing payments to them every month!)

Re your first para l was actually thinking of the folk involved in the pathetic victim blaming statement.

Re your second my MP is Jeremy Corbyn who is an absolutely superb constituency MP. I had a friend who had the late Tony Benn as his MP and apparently he couldn't have been more helpful either.

 

[Carlisle]

The incident was a shambles, and Avanti's 'explanation' is pathetic, but whose heads should roll? Senior management who were no doubt tucked up in bed at the time, or the Controllers, Traincrew and station staff actually involved (but not necessarily to blame)?

There’s likely to have been an on call manager from either the TOC or NR that could’ve been utilised in this scenario if the staff didn’t want the overtime but for whatever reason wasn’t .

 

[357]

There’s likely to have been an on call manager from either the TOC or NR that could’ve been utilised in this scenario if the staff didn’t want to work overtime but for whatever reason wasn’t .

You have much more faith in the on call system than I have.

When I was stations, on-call managers normally lived in the sticks, didn't drive, and didn't have any station keys or anything anyway.

 

[Carlisle]

You have much more faith in the on call system than I have.

When I was stations, on-call managers normally lived in the sticks, didn't drive, and didn't have any station keys or anything anyway.

Ok fair enough, didn’t expect it’d be that challenging.

 

[357]

Ok fair enough, didn’t expect it’d be that challenging.

No normal person would!

 

[Falcon1200]

Re your first para l was actually thinking of the folk involved in the pathetic victim blaming statement.

Yes, Avanti's 'explanation' was particularly poorly judged, but I'm still not sure that sacking the person responsible would be an appropriate response!

 

[Tractor Factor]

You pass it directly to a guard via phone or even driver via GSMR, in extremis if you can't reach the station. It is never impossible; tricky at times yes, but there are ways to do it.

That would depend.
Some TOCs, the driver needs a slip of paper, others are happy to have it over a recorded phone line.
Different TOCs, different policies.

Does GSMR have some sort of "acknowledge" button? A messasge sent isn't always a message received.

 

[Horizon22]

That would depend.
Some TOCs, the driver needs a slip of paper, others are happy to have it over a recorded phone line.
Different TOCs, different policies.

Does GSMR have some sort of "acknowledge" button? A messasge sent isn't always a message received.

Yes paper not to call and special stop orders are still given at most TOCs but can also be contatced (as I said by directly to a guard); a paper slip should be a fail safe.

As for GSMR, that would be unlikely to go straight onto the terminal as "Contact Control" at which point the controller and driver would have a verbal conversation (at an approriate stopping for the driver) about the calling pattern.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, Avanti's 'explanation' was particularly poorly judged, but I'm still not sure that sacking the person responsible would be an appropriate response!

The best we can hope for is for a full internal investigation to take place and for appropriate action (including disciplinary action) to be taken.

However I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope that the relevant lessons would be learnt, and as said above the details of any investigation are not going to be made public.

Avanti's reputation is very poor and I don't see that changing (except to sink to even greater depths) anytime soon.

 

[Falcon1200]

Avanti's reputation is very poor and I don't see that changing (except to sink to even greater depths) anytime soon.

Agree, and that full details of the incident will not, and should not, be made public, but if only Avanti had said afterwards, 'yes, we messed up, have taken steps to avoid any repeat, our deepest apologies', it might have minimised, slightly, the further damage to their name.

 

[yorkie]

Agree, and that full details of the incident will not, and should not, be made public, but if only Avanti had said afterwards, 'yes, we messed up, have taken steps to avoid any repeat, our deepest apologies', it might have minimised, slightly, the further damage to their name.

Absolutely yes. Sadly their actions so far have been pretty much the opposite of that

 

[jfollows]

Agree, and that full details of the incident will not, and should not, be made public, but if only Avanti had said afterwards, 'yes, we messed up, have taken steps to avoid any repeat, our deepest apologies', it might have minimised, slightly, the further damage to their name.

Agreed. I've said before that one of my two key mantras for running a business, underlined time and again as a customer, is that it's not about stopping things going wrong that reflects badly on a business but how mistakes are handled when they occur. Avanti don't seem to have a clue here. My experience includes things going wrong, customers complaining, and the subsequent meeting with them resulting in additional orders from them because they understood and accepted that things had gone wrong and then been handled properly.

 

[JamieL]

Agree, and that full details of the incident will not, and should not, be made public

May I ask why? A significant amount of public money flows into the railways and, as public transport, it relies on the public having faith in the system. A "secret" report seems quite contrary to all of that. Personally I would expect the report published but with individual names redacted.

 

[43066]

I do wonder whether these passengers would have been in any worse a position had the train not stopped at Oxonholme as intended. They would still have needed to get taxis from somewhere...

May I ask why? A significant amount of public money flows into the railways and, as public transport, it relies on the public having faith in the system. A "secret" report seems quite contrary to all of that. Personally I would expect the report published but with individual names redacted.

Because to everyone in the real world it’s a complete non issue warranting an internal Q and A session at best. It’s certainly not something warranting an RAIB safety investigation or digest.

 

[JamieL]

Because to everyone in the real world it’s a complete non issue warranting an internal Q and A session at best. It’s certainly not something warranting an RAIB safety investigation or digest.

So how does a secret report help? Why not publish, be transparent, everyone learns and all move on.

 

[43066]

So how does a secret report help? Why not publish, be transparent, everyone learns and all move on.

Because it’s a minor internal matter. No business is required to formally investigate and publish the minutiae of every little internal error or breakdown in communication that occurs.

Everyone has already moved on!

 

[JamieL]

Because it’s a minor internal matter. No business is required to formally investigate and publish the minutiae of every little internal error or breakdown in communication that occurs.

Everyone has already moved on!

Wasn't a MP and members of the public involved? Can it be an "internal" company issue in such circumstances?

 

[Wolfie]

Because it’s a minor internal matter. No business is required to formally investigate and publish the minutiae of every little internal error or breakdown in communication that occurs.

Everyone has already moved on!

Good luck to Avanti in that if Fallon pursues the issue with the Secretary of State for Transport...

 

[DelW]

Because it’s a minor internal matter. No business is required to formally investigate and publish the minutiae of every little internal error or breakdown in communication that occurs.

Everyone has already moved on!

If it affects a significant number of passengers, as this case did, by definition it's no longer an internal matter - it involves external participants. That's even without the notoriety it has gained through media and others' involvement.

No doubt Avanti would like to sweep it under the table with a blase "nothing to see here", but that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to. Providing a proper explanation, a real apology, and details of how they aim to avoid such a communication failure in future, should be the minimum required of a respectable company. Sadly at the moment, Avanti doesn't come into that category.

 

[Gloster]

I am always reluctant to see the results of investigations made public, not least because of the risk of obsessives taking their anger out on staff. However, when you have a massive, high-profile public cack-up like this, the operator really must show that they are doing the best to avoid a repetition. The usual bland statement that ‘lessons have been learned’ is not enough, mainly because we have heard it so often that the reaction is, “Oh, yes. That’s what they always say”. A completely anonymised brief explanation of what went wrong and what is being done should be enough.

 

[43066]

Good luck to Avanti in that if Fallon pursues the issue with the Secretary of State for Transport...

Good luck to Farron if he thinks the current SoS gives a flying fig what he thinks about anything, let alone something like this. The unfortunate reality is that Avanti (along with the wider industry, of course) has got much bigger problems which the current government only seem intent on worsening…

I’m not defending that for a second, but it’s the way it is for now!

If it affects a significant number of passengers, as this case did, by definition it's no longer an internal matter - it involves external participants. That's even without the notoriety it has gained through media and others' involvement.

No doubt Avanti would like to sweep it under the table with a blase "nothing to see here", but that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to. Providing a proper explanation, a real apology, and details of how they aim to avoid such a communication failure in future, should be the minimum required of a respectable company. Sadly at the moment, Avanti doesn't come into that category.

I think, as so often happens on these pages, a little perspective has been lost.

There was a minor human-error style cock up which led to a a few late night passengers being delayed. Some were released from a locked station, some chose to climb over a gate. Both of the last two categories had been given the choice to remain on a lit and heated train. There was no danger to anyones’ safety at any point.

This event was not a big issue in the scheme of things and I doubt it would even have been known about had Farron not stuck his oar in to try and seem relevant, prompting the (admittedly poorly judged) response from Avanti.

 

[Skiddaw]

Good luck to Farron if he thinks the current SoS gives a flying fig what he thinks about anything, let alone something like this. The unfortunate reality is that Avanti (along with the wider industry, of course) has got much bigger problems which the current government only seem intent on worsening…

I’m not defending that for a second, but it’s the way it is for now!



I think, as so often happens on these pages, a little perspective has been lost.

There was a minor human-error style cock up which led to a a few late night passengers being delayed. Some were released from a locked station, some chose to climb over a gate. Both of the last two categories had been given the choice to remain on a lit and heated train. There was no danger to anyones’ safety at any point.

This event was not a big issue in the scheme of things and I doubt it would even have been known about had Farron not stuck his oar in to try and seem relevant, prompting the (admittedly poorly judged) response from Avanti.

I don't think people would be making such a big deal of it were it not for Avant's awful track record (no pun intended). Their response (and, indeed, their general attitiude) just feels like adding insult to injury. As I've said many times, I've no beef with the Avanti frontline staff I've had contact with- they've been lovely- but I really don't think something approaching a reliable train service is too much to ask for (and us Cumbrians at least are heartily fed up with it).