Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[Taunton]

This should have been dealt with at Lancaster, and that it wasn't was a very serious error which itself put people at risk. Not something to brush off.

Given the time it happened, was there a shift change at Control coming up when they were at Lancaster. Was it easier to leave it to the next shift ...

 

[Gloster]

Given the time it happened, was there a shift change at Control coming up when they were at Lancaster. Was it easier to leave it to the next shift ...

Which, if so, shows how attitudes have changed. It used to be a matter of pride and respect for your fellow employees to leave a ‘clear desk’, or at least as near as you could.

 

[Skiddaw]

I will put my half-pennyworth in for the first time.

If I was a passenger I would be wondering if they were just passing the problem down the line. I would be concerned that I might get to Penrith and either find nobody there or find that the staff can’t, for one reason or another, help. Or be told at Penrith that I would have to go on to Carlisle.

If the passengers are locals, they may know that Penrith is a one-horse town and the likelihood of getting enough taxis for the number of passengers in the middle of the night is small. I am not sure how many passengers there were for Oxenholme, but it sounds like several taxis’ worth.

It is a bad cack-up by the railway, which appears to have multiplied by continuing errors and then topped by a crass PR letter. For most passengers it is simple: we wanted to get to Oxenholme, the train stopped at Oxenholme, but you had locked the gates so we couldn’t get out. Why? It is your train and your station.

Absolutely.

Believe me, as someone who lives a couple of miles from Penrith, you'd be more likely to find a flying pig than sufficent taxis to ferry 30+ people anywhere at that time of night (or indeed at any time). I'd be willing to bet that anyone who continued to Penrith had a lift already organised (and probably lives in the hinterland between Oxenholme & Penrith). As far as I'm concerned, Avanti has no excuse whatsoever for what happened and should be profusely apologising to all concerned.

On that note I shall bow out....

 

[Western Sunset]

Did we ever find out what happened to the passengers who carried on to Penrith?
Are they still wandering around the town looking for transport?

 

[Skiddaw]

Did we ever find out what happened to the passengers who carried on to Penrith?
Are they still wandering around the town looking for transport?

It would never surprise me. I've certainly noticed a few bewildered looking people around town over the last week or two.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This does rather follow the line of Farron being a very good constituency MP, which is also my experience from ex-in laws who lived in Westmorland and also my brief dealings with him in a professional capacity.

Farron is an excellent constituency MP and always has been, which is why he's still in post despite the whole area being a Conservative heartland.

It's clear from the Twitter exchanges that people didn't tweet Farron for help but for later awareness, and it so happened he was able to assist.

But criticising Farron as a publicity junky fits in with Avanti's general attitude that it's always someone else's fault, never their own. And, to be fair to Avanti, this attitude is entrenched in the WCML franchise and predates Avanti by a lot of years.

 

[wilbers]

I've just been watching Border news, and Avanti and this incident was discussed in the House of Commons today as an urgent question.

 

[jfollows]

I've just been watching Border news, and Avanti and this incident was discussed in the House of Commons today as an urgent question.

Yes, see #178 from Nicholas Lewis earlier today and some discussion in that thread.

 

[TPO]

Just thinking back to the original thread on this, wasn't the TM aware by at least Lancaster but the driver not so, hence him stopping? So you would have hoped that if at least the TM knew & might have been in a position to advise punters to get off at Lancaster for onward taxis. Not sure why this didn't happen, perhaps he was just following control's orders, I dunno. But if so the question then begs why was Penrith chosen over Lancaster? I mean it only takes a quick glance at a map to work out which is closer.

But whatever the reasons, Avanti screwed up. And as this has happened elsewhere before, there needs to be something more robust in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.


At least you are honest about it!!

Indeed, and that's the thing- Avanti screwed up and no matter how much they wriggle, it is not defensible for Avanti to excuse their mistake by trying to blame passengers in some way. Basics- you screw up? You apologise, work out what went wrong as an organisation (not scapegoating low-level individuals) and put something in place to prevent it happening again. The Avanti tin-ear response and indeed any sort of trying to imply it's the passengers at fault for not obeying the great always righteous railway 100% is just not reflecting the real life of passengers. With railway travel being increasingly discretionary, and far fewer "distress purchases" (the way a senior rail person I know referred to season tickets in pre-COVID days), this doesn't land well. No, passengers are not always be right, but neither is the railway, and in this case my money is on the railway being the failing party.

I join you in being extremely sceptical that multiple taxis were sourced at Penrith at that hour.

Me too, I lived in that area in years gone by and taxis were a rare beast especially late at night. Anyone believing that taxis would be waiting at Penrith is at best exceedingly naive

I will put my half-pennyworth in for the first time.

If I was a passenger I would be wondering if they were just passing the problem down the line. I would be concerned that I might get to Penrith and either find nobody there or find that the staff can’t, for one reason or another, help. Or be told at Penrith that I would have to go on to Carlisle.

If the passengers are locals, they may know that Penrith is a one-horse town and the likelihood of getting enough taxis for the number of passengers in the middle of the night is small. I am not sure how many passengers there were for Oxenholme, but it sounds like several taxis’ worth.

It is a bad cack-up by the railway, which appears to have multiplied by continuing errors and then topped by a crass PR letter. For most passengers it is simple: we wanted to get to Oxenholme, the train stopped at Oxenholme, but you had locked the gates so we couldn’t get out. Why? It is your train and your station.

Agreed. Spot on.

Absolutely.

Believe me, as someone who lives a couple of miles from Penrith, you'd be more likely to find a flying pig than sufficent taxis to ferry 30+ people anywhere at that time of night (or indeed at any time). I'd be willing to bet that anyone who continued to Penrith had a lift already organised (and probably lives in the hinterland between Oxenholme & Penrith). As far as I'm concerned, Avanti has no excuse whatsoever for what happened and should be profusely apologising to all concerned.

On that note I shall bow out....

I am sure you are right about people having lifts arranged, especially with the train being so very late.

Whereas those who perhaps had left their cars at Oxenholme would be in a different position.

TPO

 

[voyagerdude220]

1S05 19:30 Euston to Glasgow arrived at Oxenholme nearly 90 minutes late last night but didn't call at Penrith. Presumably staff were still on duty at Oxenholme last night but not Penrith.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1S05 19:30 Euston to Glasgow arrived at Oxenholme nearly 90 minutes late last night but didn't call at Penrith. Presumably staff were still on duty at Oxenholme last night but not Penrith.

Taxis from Carlisle would probably make most sense there - I wonder if they did do that correctly?

 

[Taunton]

1S05 19:30 Euston to Glasgow arrived at Oxenholme nearly 90 minutes late last night but didn't call at Penrith. Presumably staff were still on duty at Oxenholme last night but not Penrith.

So there are no staff on duty at that time of night at Penrith either.

Possibly Avanti can thus explain how the passengers from the Oxenholme incident would have had onward travel arranged from there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So there are no staff on duty at that time of night at Penrith either.

Possibly Avanti can thus explain how the passengers from the Oxenholme incident would have had onward travel arranged from there.

Presumably the Penrith staff had on that occasion been willing/able to do a couple of hours' overtime, but the Oxenholme ones not, with it the other way round this time.

 

[Paul_10]

Presumably the Penrith staff had on that occasion been willing/able to do a couple of hours' overtime, but the Oxenholme ones not, with it the other way round this time.

Just all one big mess really, even if there is no platform staff, at that time of night, what is the risk of self dispatching once the passengers have left the platform, may take longer and may delay the train a little bit but at least any delays won't be as long as any delays to passengers of missing a stop and then heading back on themselves in a taxi.

Or alternatively, like in other some other forms of working life, if there is a severely delayed train then you got to have the compromise you could be working a very late shift, yes it's not ideal but for example people working in pubs/restaurants have to work alot later than usual if there is big party nights/events happen, that's just life.

 

[muz379]

Presumably the Penrith staff had on that occasion been willing/able to do a couple of hours' overtime, but the Oxenholme ones not, with it the other way round this time.

That assumes the staff at Oxenholme hadn't seen a message sent out by control which said the train would no longer be calling there so had no reason to need to do the overtime .

Avanti have said that for whatever reason the not to stop order never made it to the traincrew , that to me indicates that the decision to not to stop the train was made just not communicated to the crew on the train meaning there is every chance it could have been sent out on internal systems to stations and other staff .

Ive certainly known of instances at my TOC where this has happened , although never to an extent that it has led to people being stuck on a locked station .

Or alternatively, like in other some other forms of working life, if there is a severely delayed train then you got to have the compromise you could be working a very late shift, yes it's not ideal but for example people working in pubs/restaurants have to work alot later than usual if there is big party nights/events happen, that's just life.

I think there is a bit of a difference between a big party night/event that will be planned in advance so staff know well in advance they are working later etc and on the day overtime because of disruption . I dont know about for station grades at Avanti but for traincrew on many tocs there are agreements that require you to stop on for a certain amount of on the day overtime . Even so none of them extend to 2 hours which being honest in my view at short notice on the day is unreasonable of any employer to expect .

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might however be that if you have a good relationship with your staff and say "can you stay an extra 2 hours for this single purpose, don't mind if you watch TV on your phone or read a book in the meantime and you will be paid for the full 2 hours" they may well say yes, but if that relationship is a bit soured...

 

[wilbers]

indeed, and even if there were 2 members of staff on shift before, it would only need 1 of them to stay on to dispatch the train and lock-up the station afterwards.

 

[TUC]

Given the time it happened, was there a shift change at Control coming up when they were at Lancaster. Was it easier to leave it to the next shift ...

Aren't there handover procedures at changes of shift?

That assumes the staff at Oxenholme hadn't seen a message sent out by control which said the train would no longer be calling there so had no reason to need to do the overtime .

Avanti have said that for whatever reason the not to stop order never made it to the traincrew , that to me indicates that the decision to not to stop the train was made just not communicated to the crew on the train meaning there is every chance it could have been sent out on internal systems to stations and other staff .

Ive certainly known of instances at my TOC where this has happened , although never to an extent that it has led to people being stuck on a locked station .


I think there is a bit of a difference between a big party night/event that will be planned in advance so staff know well in advance they are working later etc and on the day overtime because of disruption . I dont know about for station grades at Avanti but for traincrew on many tocs there are agreements that require you to stop on for a certain amount of on the day overtime . Even so none of them extend to 2 hours which being honest in my view at short notice on the day is unreasonable of any employer to expect .

My daughter is a mental health nurse, and on occasion has had to work more than two hours beyond her shift because particular 'situations' were unfolding which meant she couldn't just go home and leave her colleagues to struggle. That's not an employer requirement, but it is part of having a responsible approach to one's job.

 

[43066]

My daughter is a mental health nurse, and on occasion has had to work more than two hours beyond her shift because particular 'situations' were unfolding which meant she couldn't just go home and leave her colleagues to struggle. That's not an employer requirement, but it is part of having a responsible approach to one's job.

All she’s doing is enabling the shoddy practices of her employer in not employing enough staff in the first place. Maybe if more healthcare staff stood up for themselves and refused to be treated like dirt we wouldn’t regularly read about their low pay, chronic overwork, burn out leading to high turnover etc.

Also many railway jobs are safety critical. If someone has been driving/guarding/dispatching for ten hours and is asked to stay on, the responsible thing to do will often be to refuse.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Aren't there handover procedures at changes of shift?


My daughter is a mental health nurse, and on occasion has had to work more than two hours beyond her shift because particular 'situations' were unfolding which meant she couldn't just go home and leave her colleagues to struggle. That's not an employer requirement, but it is part of having a responsible approach to one's job.

On occasion is different to everyday. Everyday there will be something going on, and you cannot expect people to stay everyday

 

[357]

Aren't there handover procedures at changes of shift?


My daughter is a mental health nurse, and on occasion has had to work more than two hours beyond her shift because particular 'situations' were unfolding which meant she couldn't just go home and leave her colleagues to struggle. That's not an employer requirement, but it is part of having a responsible approach to one's job.

I'm a driver and on occasion I've stayed 2 or more hours past my finish time.

The difference here is that the staff locked the station and went home because they had been told that there were no more trains, and it was the end of their shift.

Imagine the headlines, "greedy railway staff stay two hours after the last train every day due to archaic practices in case there is another train that stops by accident"

 

[HSTEd]

I'm somewhat late to the party, but it seems necessary for a station to have a means of opening at least one exit from the inside without a key or somesuch.

Even excluding this situation, imagine if traincrew were trying to meet an ambulance or some similar scenario?

 

[northwichcat]

The difference here is that the staff locked the station and went home because they had been told that there were no more trains, and it was the end of their shift.

Who told them the last train was cancelled when it wasn't? They were working at the station and locked it up at the normal time, despite not hearing or seeing the last train and presumably departure displays were showing it was yet to arrive.

Pre-departure displays and Internet feeds it used to be if a train didn't turn up, the person in the ticket office made a phone call to find out what was going on. Do Avanti need to retrain their staff in to how to make a telephone call? Or did someone know that's the right thing to do, but just decided I'm finishing now and one of my colleagues can sort out the problem that locking up the station may cause?

 

[43096]

Who told them the last train was cancelled when it wasn't? They were working at the station and locked it up at the normal time, despite not hearing or seeing the last train and presumably departure displays were showing it was yet to arrive.

Pre-departure displays and Internet feeds it used to be if a train didn't turn up, the person in the ticket office made a phone call to find out what was going on. Do Avanti need to retrain their staff in to how to make a telephone call? Or did someone know that's the right thing to do, but just decided I'm finishing now and one of my colleagues can sort out the problem that locking up the station may cause?

Or perhaps they did make a call and control told them that the last train was cancelled, but that message never reached the train crew.

 

[357]

Who told them the last train was cancelled when it wasn't? They were working at the station and locked it up at the normal time, despite not hearing or seeing the last train and presumably departure displays were showing it was yet to arrive.

Pre-departure displays and Internet feeds it used to be if a train didn't turn up, the person in the ticket office made a phone call to find out what was going on. Do Avanti need to retrain their staff in to how to make a telephone call? Or did someone know that's the right thing to do, but just decided I'm finishing now and one of my colleagues can sort out the problem that locking up the station may cause?

I thought that the train was supposed to have a stop order not to call, and that everyone knew apart from the train crew? Maybe I'm mistaken.

Edit: I'm not mistaken, check the link in post #1

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that the train was supposed to have a stop order not to call, and that everyone knew apart from the train crew?

Do we know one was actually issued? The quote says one should have been issued, not one was issued.

Why would they have issued one instead of either leaving a gate unlocked or asking someone to stay late? The cost of taxis and Delay Repay claims could have costed thousands, so it doesn't make any sense to plan a do not stop order, unless the station was locked first.

 

[357]

Do we know one was actually issued? The quote says one should have been issued, not one was issued.

Why would they have issued one instead of either leaving a gate unlocked or asking someone to stay late? The cost of taxis and Delay Repay claims could have costed thousands, so it doesn't make any sense to plan a do not stop order, unless the station was locked first.

The physical paper goes to the traincrew, the other people who need to know, such as station staff, social media team, customer information manager, will be told via other means.

Maybe the risk assessment for the station doesn't permit it to be open with no staff, and the staff who were there didn't want overtime, or were already on a minimum turn around before their next shift (common on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights, I don't know what day of the week this was).

 

[northwichcat]

So unless one was printed out and a dispatcher handed it to the train crew at an earlier station, it was not issued?

The last Glasgow train connects with the last Windermere train, so regardless of whether one was issued, the train manager may have needed to request taxis for passengers who will miss their connection.

 

[357]

So unless one was printed out and a dispatcher handed it to the train crew at an earlier station, it was not issued?

The last Glasgow train connects with the last Windermere train, so regardless of whether one was issued, the train manager may have needed to request taxis for passengers who will miss their connection.

The only people "issued" with it is traincrew. This is standard.

Other staff will be told by other systems, normally Tyrellcheck or phone call.

 

[DelayRepay]

My daughter is a mental health nurse, and on occasion has had to work more than two hours beyond her shift because particular 'situations' were unfolding which meant she couldn't just go home and leave her colleagues to struggle. That's not an employer requirement, but it is part of having a responsible approach to one's job.

I sometimes work late, if there's something that needs finishing off (although the consequences of not doing so would be far less than for your daughter).

But not everyone can work late at short notice. The staff we're discussing may have had kids at home with a babysitter who needed to be relieved. They may have needed to get home so a partner could use the shared car to get to their own job. All sorts of things that could prevent staff from working extra hours, even if they had a burning desire to help their employer out.

Or as noted above they may simply have been told the train was cancelled in which case there would be no need for anyone to stay behind.