Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[43066]

Indeed, leaving passengers with possibly no way of onward travel when there were potentially better alternatives isn't acceptable really.

They were offered the choice of continuing in complete safety on the same train to a location where taxis would have been provided. Some passengers took that option and I’ve seen no suggestion that taxis weren’t provided for them.

What are these “better alternatives”? Once the mistake was realised, there was no way of unlocking the station, what exactly could have been done differently? And don’t say “it shouldn’t have happened in the first place” because we all know that, but sometimes mistakes happen.

To Penrith, where there wouldn't have been enough (or possibly even any) taxis to take them back to Oxenholme/Windermere. Thus stranding them there. It's not London, with Ubers at beck and call.

So what happened to the passengers who continued to Penrith? Were any of them stranded there? It keeps being implied that was a virtual certainty.

Potentially even the same thing could happen as Penrith gets locked up. Carlisle?

This is one of those events that happens a vanishingly small number of times every year. The chances of consecutive stations on the same journey also being inadvertently locked is so infinitesimal that it can be discounted. Especially once this mistake had become known about.

Rightful, you mean. It used to be possible to trust the railway not to strand you. It's no longer possible. Sure, in London or MK you can get a taxi and pursue a refund later, but you can't in a rural area.

This isn't acceptable. One stranding due to the railway's fault is a very serious matter. Let alone multiple.

But nobody was actually left stranded, as far as I can see?

Surely in common with any other public building, stations should have emergency exits in case of fire?

Agreed. Presumably it’s because they have access to platforms (and off platform ends to the track bed) if really necessary.

 

[Tetchytyke]

a large park locked overnight unless they do a full search of it before locking to check nobody's fallen asleep in a corner

My friend owns a house in the middle of a public park, and it's a relatively regular occurrence for someone to knock on her door asking to be let out of the park. So it does happen.

It'd be interesting what happened to anyone who travelled to Penrith- assuming anyone did. I'd be amazed if there were any taxis. It's a small market town a long way from anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were offered the choice of continuing in complete safety on the same train to a location where taxis would have been provided.

The railway has failed on this so many times that if they said that to me I simply wouldn't trust them unless they provided actual evidence, e.g. the name of the taxi firm so I could phone them and confirm they did.

Their credibility on this kind of matter is utterly shot.

It'd be interesting what happened to anyone who travelled to Penrith- assuming anyone did. I'd be amazed if there were any taxis. It's a small market town a long way from anywhere.

I would too. I bet what happened was that all of them had someone they could phone for a lift, who may have been picking them up at Oxenholme anyway. This is a very common rural use case.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think it's because you can seek safety at a platform end, but I would agree that there should be a means of easy escape from any public area of any kind, even outdoor, if it is not staffed 24/7/365 and there is any possible legal* way a person could end up inside it while closed (e.g. a large park locked overnight unless they do a full search of it before locking to check nobody's fallen asleep in a corner).

* If someone breaks in, they can break out again if needs be.

Sorry I was thinking more about the passengers tipped out at Penrith where they were probably met with a very long wait for a taxi from somewhere else. As you say they could, and should have been advised to alight at Lancaster where they would have at least had a better, and much quicker chance of getting home.

They were offered the choice of continuing in complete safety on the same train to a location where taxis would have been provided. Some passengers took that option and I’ve seen no suggestion that taxis weren’t provided for them.

Penrith has a smaller population than Baildon where I live, and far more isolated too. Now I do know that our local taxi firm after about midnight will consist of the one driver with his mobile phone that the office line is diverted to. So its a fair bet that somewhere like Penrith wouldn't have been awash with spare taxis just knocking about in the hope that an Avanti will deposit some profitable rides for them. So its likely that taxis ordered may well have had to come from far and wide, and will have taken some time to get there, if at all. Cumbria isn't known for its high density taxi coverage.

What are these “better alternatives”? Once the mistake was realised, there was no way of unlocking the station, what exactly could have been done differently? (And don’t say “it shouldn’t have happened in the first place” because we all know sometimes mistakes happen).

The service wasn't supposed to call at Oxenholme, so the punters should have been asked to alight at Lancaster where there would almost certainly be more taxi options, with a shorter journey to boot. Clearly this didn't happen because people alighted at Oxenholme, if they had been asked to get off at Lancaster there would have been no-one to leave stranded behind a locked gate.

This was a railway cock-up, not the passengers. And I'd happily bet if you had been one of the punters in question, you'd have done the same! Am I right....?? Be honest now....

 

[wilbers]

Debatable. There wouldn't have been taxis at Penrith - I think we can be close to sure of that. Potentially kipping on a park bench might have been the only option for some.

Not that your park bench was a serious option, but Castle Park (opposite Penrith station) gets locked up at night, so not an option in more ways than one.

 

[43066]

indeed - but that is the fuel of any forum or message board!

Indeed and there’s nothing wrong with that. But of course true safety consciousness (which the railway is on the whole extremely good at) requiring a realistic assessment of risks and a mature, dispassionate analysis of what went wrong.

The railway has failed on this so many times that if they said that to me I simply wouldn't trust them unless they provided actual evidence, e.g. the name of the taxi firm so I could phone them and confirm they did.

So you’d refuse to re-board the train? In which case there would be nothing more that could be done and you’d be stranding yourself. You can’t ever really discount the possibility of needing to rely on taxis eg last train cancellations etc.

The service wasn't supposed to call at Oxenholme, so the punters should have been asked to alight at Lancaster where there would almost certainly be more taxi options, with a shorter journey to boot. Clearly this didn't happen because people alighted at Oxenholme, if they had been asked to get off at Lancaster there would have been no-one to leave stranded behind a locked gate.

I think we can assume the mistake wasn’t known about until arrival at Oxemholme. Presumably the train continued to Carlisle? In which case they could have sourced taxis from there. Looking at it on a map* it’s a lot further north so perhaps more inconvenient overall than suffering a long wait at Oxenholme.

This was a railway cock-up, not the passengers. And I'd happily bet if you had been one of the punters in question, you'd have done the same! Am I right....?? Be honest now....

Not disputing that. I’d almost certainly have climbed over the gate rather than be inconvenienced! But I accept that wouldn’t be possible for many.

*I admit my geography on this part of the world isn’t the strongest. Until this morning, if you’d asked me when Penrith was, I’d have guessed somewhere in Wales

 

[DelW]

Indeed. Ultimately the passengers were offered the choice of continuing on the train in complete safety, albeit having been inconvenienced, some close to climb over the gates (which I’ll admit is likely what I would personally have elected to do).

It would have been a much bigger deal had the train departed, had they been left in freezing conditions etc.
It’s really not that different to situations where trains are rendered unable to call at a particular station mid-journey for operational reasons.

It’s very rare but not the first time it’s happened, and I doubt it will be the last. If it wasn’t for a publicity seeking MP’s involvement I doubt we would even be reading about it.

This statement (my bold) seems grossly unfair.

I'm no great fan of some of Mr Farron's views (unrelated to this case), but according to the initial posts in the earlier thread, he was contacted by the trapped passengers during the incident itself, and had some involvement in contacting local police to get them released. I am sure that his constituents would want him to follow up that involvement with finding out what went wrong, and trying to ensure that Avanti don't make the same mistakes again. To characterise that as "publicity-seeking" is highly unfair.

See early posts here:

Oxenholme station last night (16/08/22)- passengers "locked in"

Just seen this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/di_gilmore/status/1559675571050872832 Not cool @AvantiWestCoast London train arrived at Oxenholme station over 100 minutes late. The only way out of the station was to climb the locked gates! You couldn’t make it up #utterdisgrace...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bantamzen]

I think we can assume the mistake wasn’t known about until arrival at Oxemholme. Presumably the train continued to Carlisle? In which case they could have sourced taxis from there. Looking at it on a map* it’s a lot further north so perhaps more inconvenient overall than suffering a long wait at Oxenholme.

Just thinking back to the original thread on this, wasn't the TM aware by at least Lancaster but the driver not so, hence him stopping? So you would have hoped that if at least the TM knew & might have been in a position to advise punters to get off at Lancaster for onward taxis. Not sure why this didn't happen, perhaps he was just following control's orders, I dunno. But if so the question then begs why was Penrith chosen over Lancaster? I mean it only takes a quick glance at a map to work out which is closer.

But whatever the reasons, Avanti screwed up. And as this has happened elsewhere before, there needs to be something more robust in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Not disputing that. I’d almost certainly have climbed over the gate rather than be inconvenienced! But I accept that wouldn’t be possible for many.

*I admit my geography on this part of the world isn’t the strongest. Until this morning, if you’d asked me when Penrith was, I’d have guessed somewhere in Wales

At least you are honest about it!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not that your park bench was a serious option, but Castle Park (opposite Penrith station) gets locked up at night, so not an option in more ways than one.

It was semi-serious. I wouldn't rule out a young person of limited means (e.g. a student studying at Ambleside who was heading back) ending up doing it, though they may equally not care.

I know the park is locked up, it's annoying to have to walk round at night

 

[Dave W]

Until this morning, if you’d asked me when Penrith was, I’d have guessed somewhere in Wales

If it was just round the corner I don't think there'd be anyone crowing about it.

There are many on this forum who preach about unhysterical common sense, so if I was using mine, I'd make a rational assumption that most people getting off at Oxenholme would know enough of their local county to be unhysterically, sensibly and rationally asking "why are you making me go 30 miles north to get a taxi 30 miles back?" - that idea doesn't come across as inconvenience, it comes across as utter nonsense.

Certainly cock-up over conspiracy, but there are enough cock-ups in a row here that make this a lot more serious than the attitude of "it happens, get over it" allows for. Once the train had stopped at Oxenholme the concept of herding everyone back on wasn't going to happen - of course a small number may have complied; maybe some lived half way between, maybe some will blindly follow what they're told. The doubling down comms afterwards is a particularly poor look (especially in light of their recent "unofficial strike" nonsense) - a catalogue of mistakes in the last few weeks.

 

[AlterEgo]

The railway has failed on this so many times that if they said that to me I simply wouldn't trust them unless they provided actual evidence, e.g. the name of the taxi firm so I could phone them and confirm they did.

I join you in being extremely sceptical that multiple taxis were sourced at Penrith at that hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least you are honest about it!!

I've long thought it sounds like it should be in Wales, as "pen" is a common Welsh place name prefix. Apparently it's sort of Celtic in origin ("Cumbric", a dead language, and Welsh have similar roots) which provides quite a good explanation.

It's a lovely little town, big enough to have facilities but small enough to be friendly, perhaps comparable to a slightly hillier Ormskirk or something, though it has about half Ormskirk's population (15K vs 25K). Does have issues with the typical UK small town "10 pints and a fight on a Saturday night" type thing, but most small UK towns do, though this is likely to be more in town than near the station which is on the edge, notwithstanding that some will come up for a McDs which is also there (and, as an aside, provides a safeish place to wait with people around). But most importantly it doesn't (like indeed Ormskirk) have lots of taxis.

 

[43066]

Just thinking back to the original thread on this, wasn't the TM aware by at least Lancaster but the driver not so, hence him stopping? So you would have hoped that if at least the TM knew & might have been in a position to advise punters to get off at Lancaster for onward taxis. Not sure why this didn't happen, perhaps he was just following control's orders, I dunno. But if so the question then begs why was Penrith chosen over Lancaster? I mean it only takes a quick glance at a map to work out which is closer.

I suspect we don’t know the full picture there. If they’d specifically been told taxis would be made available at that location that might explain it but, had they known, they’d almost certainly still make an announcement as early as possible because (for obvious reasons!) the last thing any TM wants is to end up with people on their train who don’t want to be there. This would also minimise numbers as some might have chosen to bail out at Lancaster.

I'm no great fan of some of Mr Farron's views (unrelated to this case), but according to the initial posts in the earlier thread, he was contacted by the trapped passengers during the incident itself, and had some involvement in contacting local police to get them released. I am sure that his constituents would want him to follow up that involvement with finding out what went wrong, and trying to ensure that Avanti don't make the same mistakes again. To characterise that as "publicity-seeking" is highly unfair.

I simply don’t believe anyone would actively contact an MP, of all people, in this kind of situation. If anything perhaps he read about the incident unfolding on Twitter and decided to muscle in for some likes.

Call me cynical but I also simply don’t believe politicians of the cold blooded, self serving, insect-like variety we have in the U.K.can so much as break wind without something being in it for them!

The doubling down comms afterwards is a particularly poor look (especially in light of their recent "unofficial strike" nonsense) - a catalogue of mistakes in the last few weeks.

Certainly agree with that. The PR/comms has been terrible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly agree with that. The PR/comms has been terrible.

We can certainly agree on this - Avanti seem to be coming across very similarly to Ryanair at the moment, the difference being that the prices are very much not Ryanair. You can get away with being cheap and rubbish (I could for instance see LNR coming out with this sort of thing for users of their budget long distance services, or Megabus going "soz, deal with it" if a coach was cancelled) but expensive and rubbish just makes a company look really, really bad.

 

[mpthomson]

Probably just convention, but (unlike Lancaster if that wasn't locked up) I really can't see a crime issue developing, it's literally in the middle of a field.

Except for the pub and housing estate 100 metres from it…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for the pub and housing estate 100 metres from it…

The "housing estate" is pleasant and rural and very unlikely to have major social issues resulting in a serious vandalism problem a the station. My sister lived there for a bit, it's lovely, though I'd not want to live there myself due to the relative lack of any facilities bar the station and pub mentioned.

The pub looks very much like the kind you drive to.

If Bletchley (which can be a bit chavvy at times) can be left open all night including the building (as there's no other way onto/off the platforms and the service near enough runs 24 hours a day other than Saturday onto Sunday), then Oxenholme can with the building locked. I think it's just "it's always been done like that" really. Even less of a case for Penrith to be locked up.

But even if there was a case for it, you could put a "break glass for key to exit in emergency" box up, with a CCTV camera pointed at it so if someone did jump the fence to get it they'd be on film. All stations that are locked up should have these, really. Or alternatively the lock should be a combination lock with a number to phone to get the code, or with the emergency services holding the code.

 

[Gloster]

I will put my half-pennyworth in for the first time.

If I was a passenger I would be wondering if they were just passing the problem down the line. I would be concerned that I might get to Penrith and either find nobody there or find that the staff can’t, for one reason or another, help. Or be told at Penrith that I would have to go on to Carlisle.

If the passengers are locals, they may know that Penrith is a one-horse town and the likelihood of getting enough taxis for the number of passengers in the middle of the night is small. I am not sure how many passengers there were for Oxenholme, but it sounds like several taxis’ worth.

It is a bad cack-up by the railway, which appears to have multiplied by continuing errors and then topped by a crass PR letter. For most passengers it is simple: we wanted to get to Oxenholme, the train stopped at Oxenholme, but you had locked the gates so we couldn’t get out. Why? It is your train and your station.

 

[mpthomson]

The "housing estate" is pleasant and rural and very unlikely to have major social issues resulting in a serious vandalism problem a the station. My sister lived there for a bit, it's lovely, though I'd not want to live there myself due to the relative lack of any facilities bar the station and pub mentioned.

The pub looks very much like the kind you drive to.

If Bletchley (which can be a bit chavvy at times) can be left open all night including the building (as there's no other way onto/off the platforms and the service near enough runs 24 hours a day other than Saturday onto Sunday), then Oxenholme can with the building locked. I think it's just "it's always been done like that" really. Even less of a case for Penrith to be locked up.

But even if there was a case for it, you could put a "break glass for key to exit in emergency" box up, with a CCTV camera pointed at it so if someone did jump the fence to get it they'd be on film. All stations that are locked up should have these, really. Or alternatively the lock should be a combination lock with a number to phone to get the code, or with the emergency services holding the code.

I used to run a community psychiatric team in Kendal (and based fairly close to the station). Kendal has anti-social behaviour issues just like anywhere else does, and not just in the centre of the town.

It’s not a rural housing estate (and isn’t considered so by anyone who lives there). It’s basically a suburb of Kendal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to run a community psychiatric team in Kendal (and based fairly close to the station). Kendal has anti-social behaviour issues just like anywhere else does, and not just in the centre of the town.

It’s not a rural housing estate (and isn’t considered so by anyone who lives there). It’s basically a suburb of Kendal.

Either way I don't see that Oxenholme station would be any more vulnerable to vandalism than Bletchley station (which is only locked on 25/12 and 26/12), and I think much less so to be honest.

It's a bit moot, though, as I've outlined ways to provide for leaving the station in emergency but not entering it.

 

[BJames]

I suspect we don’t know the full picture there. If they’d specifically been told taxis would be made available at that location that might explain it but, had they known, they’d almost certainly still make an announcement as early as possible because (for obvious reasons!) the last thing any TM wants is to end up with people on their train who don’t want to be there. This would also minimise numbers as some might have chosen to bail out at Lancaster.




I simply don’t believe anyone would actively contact an MP, of all people, in this kind of situation. If anything perhaps he read about the incident unfolding on Twitter and decided to muscle in for some likes.

Call me cynical but I also simply don’t believe politicians of the cold blooded, self serving, insect-like variety we have in the U.K.can so much as break wind without something being in it for them!



Certainly agree with that. The PR/comms has been terrible.

To be fair to Farron, someone did indeed tweet him and he responded quite soon after - I went and had a look through his Twitter the next morning after seeing threads on here and media articles because I didn't believe it either, but he did indeed respond and then called the police when Avanti failed to answer him IIRC. I'm pretty sure I said at the time that an MP wouldn't be the first person I'd think to contact if I got into a situation like this!

I will put my half-pennyworth in for the first time.

If I was a passenger I would be wondering if they were just passing the problem down the line. I would be concerned that I might get to Penrith and either find nobody there or find that the staff can’t, for one reason or another, help. Or be told at Penrith that I would have to go on to Carlisle.

If the passengers are locals, they may know that Penrith is a one-horse town and the likelihood of getting enough taxis for the number of passengers in the middle of the night is small. I am not sure how many passengers there were for Oxenholme, but it sounds like several taxis’ worth.

It is a bad cack-up by the railway, which appears to have multiplied by continuing errors and then topped by a crass PR letter. For most passengers it is simple: we wanted to get to Oxenholme, the train stopped at Oxenholme, but you had locked the gates so we couldn’t get out. Why? It is your train and your station.

I agree and fundamentally, I simply would not get back on a train to get a taxi back to somewhere that I currently am standing. All that they needed to do was fully accept blame, apologise and not in any way try and redirect blame elsewhere, and be aware that it is completely illogical to expect anyone to do what they had asked.

 

[BrianW]

Of interest? https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/OXN/details.html

'Audio announcements are broadcast throughout the station giving information about train running, platforms, security and safety announcements.Customer information screens are provided on the station concourse, displaying train running information, and on each platform showing the next train and service information.'

 

[pelli]

To be fair to Farron, someone did indeed tweet him and he responded quite soon after

The tweeter appears to not have been one of the trapped passengers, but rather the parent of one, and was a request to raise the issue in Parliament rather than a request for immediate assistance. The Twitter exchange between them and Tim Farron, lasting from 23:56 to 00:32, went as follows:

Not cool @AvantiWestCoast

London train arrived at Oxenholme station over 100 minutes late. The only way out of the station was to climb the locked gates! You couldn’t make it up
#utterdisgrace
#britishrailfail

@timfarron please raise in parliament

Good grief, that’s awful. @AvantiWestCoast how on earth was this allowed to happen? Diane, is everyone OK? I’m assuming some people simply couldn’t get over the gate?

The gates are firmly locked and everyone is trapped. I despair of our so called train service.

I am currently trying to get them on the phone…

That is beyond the call of duty. Thank you. I guess the fire brigade might be able to cut the gate open. Poor poor travellers - they must be shattered.

No reply, will call the emergency services now.

Thanks. It was my boy going over the gate. He is 6’2” and he said it was far taller than himself. The poor folk need rescued

I’ve just spoken to Cumbria police who were helpful and are now seeking a resolution… I’m not quite sure what that will look like, but they are on to it. Please keep me posted.

 

[43066]

To be fair to Farron, someone did indeed tweet him and he responded quite soon after - I went and had a look through his Twitter the next morning after seeing threads on here and media articles because I didn't believe it either, but he did indeed respond and then called the police when Avanti failed to answer him IIRC. I'm pretty sure I said at the time that an MP wouldn't be the first person I'd think to contact if I got into a situation like this!

I bet Farron paid them afterwards.

Perhaps I’ve been too cynical, then, but I struggle to understand why any normal person would contact their MP rather then calling the police directly in that situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I bet Farron paid them afterwards.

Perhaps I’ve been too cynical, then, but I struggle to understand why any normal person would contact their MP rather then calling the police directly in that situation.

The Tweet was clearly "make sure this awful TOC doesn't do it again", which much as I would love to see some Avanti management marched away in cuffs isn't going to happen

 

[Gloster]

I bet Farron paid them afterwards.

Perhaps I’ve been too cynical, then, but I struggle to understand why any normal person would contact their MP rather then calling the police directly in that situation.

It does seem to be a bit of a strange thing to do, unless the tweeter previously had experience of Farron immediately doing something practical and hoping that he would do so again. Remember, lots of MPs either wouldn’t see their twitter feed until their secretary brought it to their attention the following morning or would just say, ’Contact my office when it opens.’

 

[ricoblade]

Yes - if you were a passenger, wpuld you trust the railway to ensure that - after midnight - there would be enough taxis at Penrith to take them all back to Oxenholme ?

Absolutely not from multiple experiences of "don't worry, road transport will be provided" when it hasn't been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely not from multiple experiences of "don't worry, road transport will be provided" when it hasn't been.

Nor would I. And while I could afford to take a £50 Uber and pursue it, that's no good if there isn't one.

 

[MotCO]

Don't forget that there are lessons to be learnt here.

But will they? How often do we hear this hackneyed phrase, but does anything ever change?

 

[Dave W]

It does seem to be a bit of a strange thing to do, unless the tweeter previously had experience of Farron immediately doing something practical and hoping that he would do so again. Remember, lots of MPs either wouldn’t see their twitter feed until their secretary brought it to their attention the following morning or would just say, ’Contact my office when it opens.’

This does rather follow the line of Farron being a very good constituency MP, which is also my experience from ex-in laws who lived in Westmorland and also my brief dealings with him in a professional capacity.

I certainly don't criticise for people being cynical - and when Farron was leader of the Lib Dems he definitely loved the publicity - but in his role as being a local MP there are few better out there. Lots of unrated MPs are actually good at representing their constituents. Equally there are lots that aren't...

 

[Gloster]

But will they? How often do we hear this hackneyed phrase, but does anything ever change?

Indeed. ‘Lessons will be learnt‘ usually means that some junior member of staff is disciplined and they send out a letter that is carefully phrased so that when it happens again they can pass the blame down the hierarchy.