Avanti running "Empty Coaching Stock" in both directions

[MKB]

With Avanti cancelling multiple services lately due to staff shortages/absences, I have noticed that their decisions as to which ones to cancel have been quite bizarre. They seem to target the busiest services before/after Liverpool matches on a regular basis, that is when they are not downgrading them from 11-car to 9-car. The resulting chaos in recent weeks on match days has been amongst the worst I have ever experienced on the trains.

Yesterday, Avanti ran the 17:03 Euston-to-Liverpool on time but without passengers, meaning that many fans will have missed all but the final 30 minutes of the Liverpool/ManU game (as the next two trains were heavily delayed).

What was unusual was that the same train then ran back to Euston at 19:47, again without passengers. I'd like to think that the reason this happened was because Avanti expected to have staff at Liverpool, and that changed en route. Otherwise, it would seem to be environmental madness to be running literally an empty train in both directions, as opposed to sending it off to a depot/sidings for a few hours. Is there really no mechanism for preventing pointless running of ghost trains?

 

[zwk500]

Sometimes they can step the drivers up or nip onto the depot, but aren't all the Liverpool trains fully electric anyway?

 

[Watershed]

With Avanti cancelling multiple services lately due to staff shortages/absences, I have noticed that their decisions as to which ones to cancel have been quite bizarre. They seem to target the busiest services before/after Liverpool matches on a regular basis, that is when they are not downgrading them from 11-car to 9-car. The resulting chaos in recent weeks on match days has been amongst the worst I have ever experienced on the trains.

They will no doubt be "targeting" it simply based on what turns become uncovered. Liverpool services are 'self contained' to a degree, so there is less of a passenger impact than if e.g. they cancel an Anglo Scottish service - which may have 2 crew changes en-route, resulting in even more disruption as crew are then out of position.

Obviously ideally you would cancel a Manchester or Birmingham in preference to a Liverpool service, I'd have said, but it doesn't always work out in a way that allows this to happen. for example, if the only available driver/TM was Manchester based, and couldn't make it to Liverpool and pass over to Manchester without busting their hours, or being late to book on the next day due to the minimum 12 hour rest period.

Yesterday, Avanti ran the 17:03 Euston-to-Liverpool on time but without passengers, meaning that many fans will have missed all but the final 30 minutes of the Liverpool/ManU game (as the next two trains were heavily delayed).

What was unusual was that the same train then ran back to Euston at 19:47, again without passengers. I'd like to think that the reason this happened was because Avanti expected to have staff at Liverpool, and that changed en route.

That's the most likely scenario, yes.

Otherwise, it would seem to be environmental madness to be running literally an empty train in both directions, as opposed to sending it off to a depot/sidings for a few hours. Is there really no mechanism for preventing pointless running of ghost trains?

It's possible that both 'ghost' trains needed to run because for example the 17.03 had a Liverpool driver who insisted on getting back within their booked diagram rather than waiting for a later service, and vice versa on the return working with a Euston driver. Obviously there is a notable marginal cost to running even an empty train (traction electricity, track access charges and adding mileage to the unit) but sometimes it's still the least worst option.

Traincrew are normally only required to work 15 minutes over their booked shift length so in the case of a foreseeable 'delay' like this, they could insist on working their booked train (even if ECS) rather than passing on the next service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sometimes they can step the drivers up or nip onto the depot, but aren't all the Liverpool trains fully electric anyway?

Very occasionally Voyagers have been used on Liverpool services.
Liverpool drivers work some of the Euston-Chester/Holyhead Voyagers.
Arriving back at Chester once on a Voyager, I was surprised to be following its VT driver on to a Merseyrail train to Liverpool!

 

[Howardh]

Compared to "empty flights" running empty trains is nothing environmentally!

 

[al78]

Compared to "empty flights" running empty trains is nothing environmentally!

True but irrelevant. Wasting energy is a bad thing whoever is doing it.

 

[seagull]

A few possibilities:
1) With all the trainee drivers currently out and about, running the train could have been valuable driving hours for one of them.
2) With the lack of Euston drivers (who AFAIK are the only ones who can take a train to Wembley depot) it may have been impossible to "get rid of" the set to Wembley and undesirable to have it blocking a platform at Euston for hours.
3) Train crews needing to return to Liverpool and/or needing to return to Euston. Less likely, but possible if going over hours or affecting the next day's shift might have become a factor.

 

[Howardh]

Do these "empty" trains show on realtime trains?

 

[spyinthesky]

Do these "empty" trains show on realtime trains?

Yes

 

[quantinghome]

True but irrelevant. Wasting energy is a bad thing whoever is doing it.

Surely the quantity of wasted energy and its source are relevant? One does significantly more environmental damage than the other. We have to be able to distinguish between splinters and planks.

 

[MKB]

Do these "empty" trains show on realtime trains?

Yes. That's how I knew about them. It shows the original train as cancelled, them a new service marked "VST" running at the same time but listed as "Empty Coaching Stock".

 

[And]

I think the constraints and challenges which exist when operating train services is under-estimated, though I'm sure some operators take slightly more risks than others. Certainly in the current franchise world, often small margins exist between profit and loss, despite this sometimes having some apparently crazy and short-sighted consequences.

 

[MKB]

Surely the quantity of wasted energy and its source are relevant? One does significantly more environmental damage than the other. We have to be able to distinguish between splinters and planks.

Whataboutery is dangerous. You'd never make a decision on anything in life because there's always some worse scenario.

If, overall, a decision can save energy without adverse consequences, you should make it. Doesn't matter what happens elsewhere.

 

[Howardh]

Yes

Yes. That's how I knew about them. It shows the original train as cancelled, them a new service marked "VST" running at the same time but listed as "Empty Coaching Stock".

Thanks, one more question, if a train reches it's destination and then is run empty to the depot, does that show on RTT?

 

[Watershed]

I think the constraints and challenges which exist when operating train services is under-estimated, though I'm sure some operators take slightly more risks than others. Certainly in the current franchise world, often small margins exist between profit and loss, despite this sometimes having some apparently crazy and short-sighted consequences.

In the current world, operators aren't on franchises at all, but effectively concessions or management contracts whereby their costs are fully reimbursed by the DfT/funder and in return they remit all revenue to the funder.

They are guaranteed make a small profit provided they don't mess up by incurring disallowable costs, and they have the possibility of earning a slightly larger profit if they meet the targets set by the DfT/funder.

The decision as to whether to cancel a train will be made in exactly the same way, and based on the same criteria, as pre-Covid.

Thanks, one more question, if a train reches it's destination and then is run empty to the depot, does that show on RTT?

Provided there is a schedule for it, yes. Occasionally trains are run to/from nearby depots without a formal schedule but this is discouraged nowadays.

 

[37078xotTE]

Thanks, one more question, if a train reches it's destination and then is run empty to the depot, does that show on RTT?

Yes

 

[quantinghome]

Whataboutery is dangerous. You'd never make a decision on anything in life because there's always some worse scenario.

If, overall, a decision can save energy without adverse consequences, you should make it. Doesn't matter what happens elsewhere.

Well we don't know what lay behind the decision to run the train so we're into the realms of speculation.

If we want to be serious about addressing the environmental cost of our energy use then we must have some sense of priority. So much of our time is wasted tinkering around the edges rather than addressing the main threats.

 

[whoosh]

Possibility:

Could it be that the Train Manager was the same for both trips and was unavailable?

17:03 Euston to Liverpool
19:47 Liverpool to Euston

But the driver for the 17:03 might've been booked a PNB (break) then work the 20:48 Liverpool to Euston. So that may have to have been cancelled (with knock on effect of displaced stock for the following day - and yet a further cancellation!) if there was no other option available to get them to Liverpool.

Traincrew are on different terms and conditions regarding the parameters of hours worked and when and if breaks are given. Quite often traincrew don't stick with each other all day. Eurostar seem to keep a crew together (and a lot of the time with the same set), and a few years ago South West Trains put more focus on doing so to kerb knock-on delays.

But most of the rest of the railway....



I'm sure if you trawled the archives with enough of a fine-toothed comb, you'd discover planes that have been flown empty for similar reasons when there haven't been enough cabin crew available - the number needed is based on the number of seats on the aircraft, not the number of passengers. Someone taken ill or involved in an accident at the last minute somewhere far flung - I bet it's happened.

 

[MKB]

If we want to be serious about addressing the environmental cost of our energy use then we must have some sense of priority. So much of our time is wasted tinkering around the edges rather than addressing the main threats.

Prioritisation is something you only need to do when you lack the resources/time to deliver on multiple ambitions. It's not generally an excuse to just ignore the stuff that has smaller outcomes. The little stuff is useful too and can be quite significant when done often. I'd never do household waste recycling if I did a cost-benefit analysis of my time. I find in life, that if you focus on the detail, the big stuff usually then sorts itself out, because the example-setting changes behaviour/mindsets more widely.

 

[D1537]

Yesterday, Avanti ran the 17:03 Euston-to-Liverpool on time but without passengers, meaning that many fans will have missed all but the final 30 minutes of the Liverpool/ManU game (as the next two trains were heavily delayed).

If I need to be somewhere at a certain time these days (a meeting, a course, a music concert, whatever) I ensure I don't book on the last possible Avanti which will make it there, because their service is simply too unreliable.

 

[MKB]

If I need to be somewhere at a certain time these days (a meeting, a course, a music concert, whatever) I ensure I don't book on the last possible Avanti which will make it there, because their service is simply too unreliable.

You're very lucky then. I was not affected yesterday as I was not starting in London, but I still had to take the last train before the match from my starting point, because to do otherwise would require the afternoon off work, and I have already maxed out my entitlement for the current year.

If I had to take an afternoon off work for every weekday evening football match and theatre show I go to by train, I'd have no annual leave left for vacations!

 

[swt_passenger]

This issue was already commonplace for Avanti as noted in a thread in the timetables forum last December:

Avanti - Extra empty stock workings?

For the past few weeks now Avanti have been running their services ECS to wherever it’s booked to go if there is no Train Manager. Last week one set did ECS EUS-BHM-EUS then the next working was also cancelled and it went EUS-MAN-EUS. Why all this empty running? Even if there is no crew to take...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D1537]

You're very lucky then. I was not affected yesterday as I was not starting in London, but I still had to take the last train before the match from my starting point, because to do otherwise would require the afternoon off work, and I have already maxed out my entitlement for the current year.

If I had to take an afternoon off work for every weekday evening football match and theatre show I go to by train, I'd have no annual leave left for vacations!

Alternatively, if I don't have any option but a single Avanti train, I'll just drive instead. I appreciate that probably wasn't an option for you in that circumstance.

 

[Davester50]

Environmental concerns about empty trains when travelling to a leisure activity that seems to use a lot of resources seems a bit odd.
You could have seen the same game, using less precious energy at home on TV, or in a pub showing the game.

 

[john prytherch]

On the evening of Tuesday 19 April, at about 8.5 pm, a pair of empty Voyagers (but with most train lights on) passed Warrington Bank Quay on the Up Goods. I'm sure there was some reason for this, but cannot easily guess what.

 

[voyagerdude220]

On the evening of Tuesday 19 April, at about 8.5 pm, a pair of empty Voyagers (but with most train lights on) passed Warrington Bank Quay on the Up Goods. I'm sure there was some reason for this, but cannot easily guess what.

9M61 19:42 Blackpool North to Birmingham New Street terminated at Preston on Tuesday and then ran empty towards Birmingham and Central Rivers depot due to no Train Manager free to work the train from Preston.

 

[L401CJF]

Alternatively, if I don't have any option but a single Avanti train, I'll just drive instead. I appreciate that probably wasn't an option for you in that circumstance.

This kind of sums up the whole industry in my eyes these days, a lot of services (some TOCs more than others) are so unreliable people just opt to drive instead. I've done it myself because unfortunately it's pot luck as to what you can rely on half the time!

 

[MKB]

Environmental concerns about empty trains when travelling to a leisure activity that seems to use a lot of resources seems a bit odd.
You could have seen the same game, using less precious energy at home on TV, or in a pub showing the game.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is a serious post rather than trolling. To suggest it's odd, is odd. No-one, not even staunch environmentalists, takes an absolutist position on green matters; otherwise, we'd never do anything that consumes energy other than the bare minimum to survive. Each of us has to strike a balance between minimising the damage we do, versus enjoying life. The very fact of undertaking discretionary activities that burn energy, ought to mean we are more, not less, focused on ensuring we do it in the most efficient ways possible.

 

[Davester50]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is a serious post rather than trolling.

It's more taking the Michael over a bit of a hyperbolic first post.
Lets face it, you had a legitimate concern over cancelled trains, but to use the Eco argument over a a trip to a very much energy intensive activity was a bit of an own goal.

I'd have left it at the cancellation question, before substituting it for an environmental concern.

 

[modernrail]

We

I think the constraints and challenges which exist when operating train services is under-estimated, though I'm sure some operators take slightly more risks than others. Certainly in the current franchise world, often small margins exist between profit and loss, despite this sometimes having some apparently crazy and short-sighted consequences.

We hear a lot about this. However, whilst it might be a significant job it is also a significant job that has been required since the advent of the railway, it done well in lots of countries and that some seem a lot better at doing than others in the UK.

It’s a bit like the recent nonsense in the air. BA and EasyJet have been badly shown up by other airlines that did not get it wrong - even Ryanair!!!

Planners have more tools available to them than ever before. I do understand Covid will have been challenging to manage but I do feel we need to start to move away from excuse making now and start to concentrate on singling our operators who consistently get this wrong and insist they do better.