Avanti Superfare

[Watershed]

This is a great idea and wish more long distance TOCs (at least those with a lot of empty seats) would copy!

Just to be clear though, do you get the ticket time straight after you paid for it?

No, the website (when it was publicly accessible) said that you would receive the ticket 24 hours before travel.

It's a decent concept in my view, but the 7-21 day purchase window needs to be expanded if it's to become popular.

 

[ainsworth74]

This appears to have actually launched properly this time!

Note: Below was originally in separate thread.

Looks like Avanti are toying with a new way of filling seats which would otherwise go unused via something called Superfare. Website: https://avantisuperfare.co.uk/

Seem to boil down to picking the day and rough time (morning, afternoon or evening) you want to travel but Avanti then picking the train on that day. Booked between 7 and 21 days before travel and the exact time along with the ticket will be emailed the day before. Seems to only be available between London and Manchester, Liverpool, Preston and Birmingham (or vice versa). Fares are £12 for Birmingham, £15 for Liverpool, £20 for Manchester and £22 for Preston. No railcard discounts. They otherwise seem very similar to Advance Purchase tickets in their conditions (other than it seems you cannot refund them even if the train is cancelled, just travel on the train before or after). Full details on the website (scroll down for Terms and Conditions along with FAQs, I'd post more but they've seemed to block your ability to copy paste so the summary will have to do.

An interesting idea to try and eek out some more sales from passengers who aren't fussed about when exactly they travel but just want a good deal.

 

[Benjwri]

other than it seems you cannot refund them even if the train is cancelled, just travel on the train before or after

Where has this idea come from? The only point in their terms which deal with refunds is:

12. There are no refunds or exchanges. Please double check your ticket before you buy

This doesn't specifically bar refunds for disruption, and since point 16 states NRCoT applies, I would say this is overridden by Condition 30.1, and therefore they are entitled to a refund. Certainly to claim this wasn't the case Avanti would be standing on very shaky ground.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where has this idea come from? The only point in their terms which deal with refunds is:

This doesn't specifically bar refunds for disruption, and since point 16 states NRCoT applies, I would say this is overridden by Condition 30.1, and therefore they are entitled to a refund. Certainly to claim this wasn't the case Avanti would be standing on very shaky ground.

To be clear I said "it seems" as I don't agree with them and agree with you, Condition 30.1 applies. However I was basing it on something in their FAQ which says to the question: "What if my train is cancelled?" that "You can use your ticket on an Avanti West Coast service to the same destination immediately before or after your booked train". Hopefully it's just poor drafting (and too much cynicism on my part) that they explicitly say no refunds/exchanges but don't clarify that that doesn't apply in case of cancellations.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't want to be negative for the purposes of being negative, but I do have two thoughts that spring to mind:

1. A 5 hour window seems way too wide given you only know the day before you travel (especially given the morning window starts quite early, and the evening window ends fairly late.
2. Why can't they just release more advance tickets? Given according to brfares there is a ~£20 advance tier, this feels like its essentially selling tickets for the same price but adding even more faff to them! If they do want to try something different where the passenger gets inconvenienced a bit more but they pay less, IMO it should actually be priced below existing fares!

 

[superalbs]

But this way, they can allocate the tickets to whichever train is actually running.

I don't want to be negative for the purposes of being negative, but I do have two thoughts that spring to mind:

1. A 5 hour window seems way too wide given you only know the day before you travel (especially given the morning window starts quite early, and the evening window ends fairly late.
2. Why can't they just release more advance tickets? Given according to brfares there is a ~£20 advance tier, this feels like its essentially selling tickets for the same price but adding even more faff to them! If they do want to try something different where the passenger gets inconvenienced a bit more but they pay less, IMO it should actually be priced below existing fares!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Fare simplification's going well, then?

 

[All Line Rover]

Bloody hell, another website to be dealing with and yet another fare type.

It was bad enough when Virgin Trains offered its lowest fares through the Megabus website. (At just £1, I thought it was ok to put up with the inconvenience!)

 

[Joe Paxton]

But this way, they can allocate the tickets to whichever train is actually running.

That, and trains which are more likely to be lightly loaded - i.e. trains with fewer Advance tickets sold on them, and also fewer (non-Advance) reservations.

 

[Skymonster]

Interesting. I suspect, should similar be offered by TOCs more relevant to me, I might be tempted for leisure journeys that weren’t time sensitive - a few days away where when I didn’t mind what time of the afternoon I travelled out, or what time in the evening I came back. Of course, with no railcard discounts (and no child reductions for families), tried and trusted Advances might sometimes be cheaper.

I note the website is Seatfrog and help is also facilitated by Seatfrog until 24 hours from departure. Seems like Seatfrog might be becoming the railway equivalent of a Bucket Shop for Avanti’s distressed inventory. I wonder if Seatfrog is buying the inventory in bulk at below published prices and is taking some consequent revenue risk, like Bucket Shops did?

 

[mrmartin]

At least these tickets do offer a good discount on the walk-up fare, albeit with more restrictions.

The problem I have with advances (esp in GWRLand where I now am) is that they offer very little saving for a huge reduction in flexibility.

Personally I wouldn't consider advances unless they offered at least £40 saving on the cheapest walk up return for longer distance journeys, which these tickets do (if you ignore LNWR).

Some of the savings in GWR land are absolutely useless, with the advances mostly being 10p less than a single (so actually more expensive than getting an open return if you have a return journey), and the next bucket down being about £10 cheaper (saving a fiver on a return).

 

[Benjwri]

Some of the savings in GWR land are absolutely useless, with the advances mostly being 10p less than a single (so actually more expensive than getting an open return if you have a return journey), and the next bucket down being about £10 cheaper (saving a fiver on a return).

Where are you travelling? GWR Advances offer huge savings on peak time trains. In fact I’m making a journey this morning in the peak that an advance has saved me £100 on the anytime fare.

 

[mrmartin]

Where are you travelling? GWR Advances offer huge savings on peak time trains. In fact I’m making a journey this morning in the peak that an advance has saved me £100 on the anytime fare.

I rarely do long distance travel in the peaks, which maybe it is a bit odd.

 

[Trackman]

Anyone booked one yet?
I was going to do a journey in a couple of weeks but I cant get back on Sunday because of engineering works.
The 24hrs hours notice works fine for me.

 

[mangyiscute]

At least these tickets do offer a good discount on the walk-up fare, albeit with more restrictions.

The problem I have with advances (esp in GWRLand where I now am) is that they offer very little saving for a huge reduction in flexibility.

Personally I wouldn't consider advances unless they offered at least £40 saving on the cheapest walk up return for longer distance journeys, which these tickets do (if you ignore LNWR).

Some of the savings in GWR land are absolutely useless, with the advances mostly being 10p less than a single (so actually more expensive than getting an open return if you have a return journey), and the next bucket down being about £10 cheaper (saving a fiver on a return).

I find the complete same, but that is also because I tend to plan trips around the UK say a maximum of a week beforehand since then I know for example the weather will be good, but it does usually mean all of the cheap advances have gone. However, sticking to off peak and with a bit of split ticketing knowledge, the prices are not too dissimilar (plus more during COVID there were often cheap advances available the day before)

 

[mrmartin]

I find the complete same, but that is also because I tend to plan trips around the UK say a maximum of a week beforehand since then I know for example the weather will be good, but it does usually mean all of the cheap advances have gone. However, sticking to off peak and with a bit of split ticketing knowledge, the prices are not too dissimilar (plus more during COVID there were often cheap advances available the day before)

Thing is on PAD CDF (my main route) even just checking now 3 months in advance (latest that advances are available), the cheapest tickets are £27.60 each way, so £55 total. This is not all trains on those days by any measure either (in the peaks the advances are a lot more expensive).

A super off peak return is £89. It's really marginal to me whether that is ever worth it for me. Firstly I don't usually know plans or make plans 3 month in advance in the UK. Then I've got to worry about getting a specific train etc. If my plans change in the meantime I can't get a refund, etc etc, and this is in the utterly best case.

However someone did make a good point about peak travel which is a much bigger saving and is likely for work so less likely to be "cancelled", and the saving is likely to be much more from the anytime fare.

 

[duncanp]

Choosing Morning, Afternoon or Evening is quite a gamble about when the journey will be.

So no real difference to a normal Avanti service then.

 

[Howardh]

Just had a look now for Manchester/Euston next week (Weds) £20 out and £20 return which looks OK, but the risk is being allocated a return train in the evening which is too late for my onward connection at Piccadilly. There are now a couple of trains Picc>Bolton between 12 and 1230am; Think the 2133 from Euston to Picc will do it but the 2203 certainly wouldn't.

However at £40 return it's not that much better than an advance return with given trains using a railcard. Trainline are showing singles at £28 on the 2133 without r/c right now so there's no saving for me.

But a good initiative and hope it's well used!

 

[Snow1964]

Only seems to between 5 stations.

Completely useless if you need to connect at either end, as have to buy the other ticket separately and might not know the time, so can't buy cheap advance tickets for the connection.

Also it appears morning service could depart before you can get a connecting train, or evening might arrive after last connecting train of day has already departed.

Not sure yet another ticket type is helpful

 

[Howardh]

Only seems to between 5 stations.

Completely useless if you need to connect at either end, as have to buy the other ticket separately and might not know the time, so can't buy cheap advance tickets for the connection.

Also it appears morning service could depart before you can get a connecting train, or evening might arrive after last connecting train of day has already departed.

Not sure yet another ticket type is helpful

For those - a bit like myself - I wonder if once you have been given the time, and it's inappropriate, would you be able to walk on to an earlier train and pay the difference? I think not as this is a stand-alone ticket, not even sure you could upgrade to standard + (??) but if I wasnn't railcard user I might give it a go. After all, £20 + £45 for a night in the Britannia in Manchester isn't much different than the standard single if you could excess.

However I agree that yet another ticket option isn't helpful. I'd rather Avanti release more cheap advances up to the day of travel, especially for First if there's room.

 

[Benjwri]

For those - a bit like myself - I wonder if once you have been given the time, and it's inappropriate, would you be able to walk on to an earlier train and pay the difference? I think not as this is a stand-alone ticket, not even sure you could upgrade to standard + (??) but if I wasnn't railcard user I might give it a go. After all, £20 + £45 for a night in the Britannia in Manchester isn't much different than the standard single if you could excess.

However I agree that yet another ticket option isn't helpful. I'd rather Avanti release more cheap advances up to the day of travel, especially for First if there's room.

Do we actually know what ticket this gives you? I was under the impression it’s just a standard advance single, so could be excessed.

 

[Howardh]

Do we actually know what ticket this gives you? I was under the impression it’s just a standard advance single, so could be excessed.

Superfare

Travel fast for less with Superfare tickets. Be matched to an empty seat, get a bargain fare for an Avanti West Coast train. Fares are low whenever you go.

www.avantisuperfare.co.uk

Unfortunately it appears I can't copy the details on to here, whether it's a bug on my PC or the site won't let me copy and paste, so I've included a couple of screenshots. If anyone can cut and paste from that page I'd be grateful!

It says nothing about excessing if you get a different train, although the final point is

"bookings are subject to our terms and conditions and National Rail's conditions of travel"

Screenshot of T's and C's

 

[PG]

Do we actually know what ticket this gives you? I was under the impression it’s just a standard advance single, so could be excessed.

It is listed on BRfares so, in theory, should be able to be excessed.

 

[Snow1964]

It is listed on BRfares so, in theory, should be able to be excessed.

The rules seem to include :
12) There are no refunds or exchanges.

Sort of implies cannot be exchanged as part payment towards another ticket type.

 

[tornado]

I remember around 15 years ago getting a £1 deal with Virgin for a similar "afternoon" train deal to London Euston.

 

[standish1]

Not much use for Wigan or Warrington

 

[zero]

Grr I forgot about this, as for once I actually am flexible on LIV-EUS next week, bought an advance at £39 when I could have got one of these for £15. No flexibility on any other trips for the next 3 months

 

[Trackman]

The rules seem to include :
12) There are no refunds or exchanges.

Sort of implies cannot be exchanged as part payment towards another ticket type.

That's the way I look at it, no excess - it would be a new ticket like with a standard on the wrong timed train.
---
OK I've mentioned this a few weeks back, has anyone made a journey yet?
Just wondering about the email notification timescale, OK they say min 24Hrs, the booking window ends 7 days before, curious on when these emails go out so I can make plans.

 

[Merseysider]

How long until we find Superfares on sale before regular Advances?

I was going to book one for the 1st April but of course that's a strike day... again... so no tickets... again...

 

[philosopher]

Just had a look now for Manchester/Euston next week (Weds) £20 out and £20 return which looks OK, but the risk is being allocated a return train in the evening which is too late for my onward connection at Piccadilly. There are now a couple of trains Picc>Bolton between 12 and 1230am; Think the 2133 from Euston to Picc will do it but the 2203 certainly wouldn't.

However at £40 return it's not that much better than an advance return with given trains using a railcard. Trainline are showing singles at £28 on the 2133 without r/c right now so there's no saving for me.

But a good initiative and hope it's well used!

My suspicion is that travellers who book the evening slot will usually end up travelling on the last or perhaps penultimate train of the day. Similarly those booking the morning slot on weekends I suspect will end up on the earliest train of the day. Some travellers will be ok with a very early start or late finish to their journey, but for those who are not, I doubt this scheme would be much use to them.