Avanti - Trainee Train Drivers - Multiple Locations (28/02/23)

[irish_rail]

It was everybody’s first day once.

Yeah but strangely there wasn't a glut of incidents last time there was new intakes. Feels like the changes made to the selection process are not necessarily for the better, though we will see in the fullness of time.

 

[y4d344]

Has anyone received an email from opc about half an hour ago -
Hello there
Thank you so much for applying for the role of Trainee Driver with Avanti West Coast.

We are working with Avanti to undertake some research. This research will look at the usefulness of practice materials that are given to candidates when invited to sit assessments for the trainee train driver process.

We would be really grateful if you could share your opinions about the practice materials you were given by undertaking a survey.

The survey is voluntary, and will have NO impact on your assessment results, it is for The OPC research purposes only.

 

[BuryDen]

Has everyone here applying for Liverpool heard either way now?

Anyone applying for Manchester heard anything either way yet?

I've more or less convinced myself it's a no for me, so not half as stressed as I have been this last week or so, but it'd be nice to be able to draw a line under it all.

Submitted first 5 tests on 11/3 for Manchester. Deadline was 13/3. Heard nothing yet.

 

[TK.]

Submitted first 5 tests on 11/3 for Manchester. Deadline was 13/3. Heard nothing yet.

Exactly the same here.. keeping fingers crossed

 

[Bjynwa]

Applied for Liverpool and Manchester. Assessment deadline was 14th, completed a day earlier. Not had anything for second assessment invites, so preparing for the worst, but still hoping...

Same as you. Applied to both Liverpool and Manchester and not heard back after first assessments. Don't fret, I'm sure we will hear one way or another soon

 

[Sorcerer]

I have a friend not on the forums who applied for Liverpool depot and heard back saying he didn't meet the standards after the initial questionnaire and situational judgement test. They are getting back to people, so once again it must be emphasised that anyone whose not heard back yet should remain patient unless you haven't even received the first questionnaire, in which case you've most likely not made it through the initial sift.

 

[DanielWhitt]

Has anyone received an email from opc about half an hour ago -
Hello there
Thank you so much for applying for the role of Trainee Driver with Avanti West Coast.

We are working with Avanti to undertake some research. This research will look at the usefulness of practice materials that are given to candidates when invited to sit assessments for the trainee train driver process.

We would be really grateful if you could share your opinions about the practice materials you were given by undertaking a survey.

The survey is voluntary, and will have NO impact on your assessment results, it is for The OPC research purposes only.

I did, I also nearly choked on my food and had a sinking feeling at the same time, I just saw OPC

 

[y4d344]

Does anyone know how much time we have for the M7SJT? on the email it says 80 mins but the practice material says 45mins

 

[badger85]

Does anyone know how much time we have for the M7SJT? on the email it says 80 mins but the practice material says 45mins

70mins for 25 questions

 

[y4d344]

70mins for 25 questions

Sweet, was the questions similar to the practices ones?

 

[badger85]

Sweet, was the questions similar to the practices ones?

Yeah, all random scenarios basically

 

[myotherhobby87]

Anyone else still waiting for Wolverhampton?? My deadline was 15th but completed it late on 13th.

Thanks and good luck all

The same for me, still Waiting................

 

[Sparrowman]

Probably too late now to hear anything for today, hopefully they will start emailing out again tomorrow.

 

[Spincity]

I don't doubt for a minute that these tests will get you a certain amount of drivers who with training will be naturally more suited to the job than someone who may have to work at it a little more, but that doesn't mean to say they are any more suited than someone else but struggles with tests. My point being that that half of the Drivers Trainers in the rail industry haven't sat these tests and have gained the knowledge via experience, gained over a period of time, they have also moved with the times, adapted and overcome new technology and the ability to use newer train equipment, which inherently are more complicated and take more knowledge to run, but have still been able to do it, without the need for testing. The problem is, which is the same for most industries, companies with a limited number of job and massive amount of applications, are able to cherry pick the very best but these are the very best at passing tests, not who will necessarily be the better train driver, in this instance. I'm A HGV driver by trade, and we have a driver shortage in the industry, wages have gone through the roof, and the hauliers believe now that because they have more applications that they know what to do with, they place these massive employment processes and tasks, testing days etc, in an attempt to select the best of the best, to cut down on damages, accidents, incidents and legal issues, but all they have done is found people who can pass a test. The issue is they are useless drivers when left alone and have caused more damage, accidents and incidents in recent years that they know what to deal with, including drivers who once they become employed, portray a very different outlook than they did during the interview, especially when it comes to safety and legal compliance, which in industries such as this as well as hgv driving, safety is

Good points… the issue I have found is people train and train, practise and practise to pass an almost set criteria.
You then employ them… then you find the real ‘them’ and you have given yourself a 40 year headache.
It’s the training teams responsibility to train them, I mean, after all, they passed selection process right?
… and some of the decent ones, who didn’t know the rules of the game, miss out when they were the better candidate with miles more natural ability

So removing the tests and select potential drivers on what measurement….what do you define as ‘decent ones’ and how do you know they would have been a ‘better candidate’. If they have the natural talent don’t these tests specifically identify those with this potential. But please expand on how you’d identify these naturals?

I don't doubt for a minute that these tests will get you a certain amount of drivers who with training will be naturally more suited to the job than someone who may have to work at it a little more, but that doesn't mean to say they are any more suited than someone else but struggles with tests. My point being that that half of the Drivers Trainers in the rail industry haven't sat these tests and have gained the knowledge via experience, gained over a period of time, they have also moved with the times, adapted and overcome new technology and the ability to use newer train equipment, which inherently are more complicated and take more knowledge to run, but have still been able to do it, without the need for testing. The problem is, which is the same for most industries, companies with a limited number of job and massive amount of applications, are able to cherry pick the very best but these are the very best at passing tests, not who will necessarily be the better train driver, in this instance. I'm A HGV driver by trade, and we have a driver shortage in the industry, wages have gone through the roof, and the hauliers believe now that because they have more applications that they know what to do with, they place these massive employment processes and tasks, testing days etc, in an attempt to select the best of the best, to cut down on damages, accidents, incidents and legal issues, but all they have done is found people who can pass a test. The issue is they are useless drivers when left alone and have caused more damage, accidents and incidents in recent years that they know what to deal with, including drivers who once they become employed, portray a very different outlook than they did during the interview, especially when it comes to safety and legal compliance, which in industries such as this as well as hgv driving, safety is paramount.

I spent many years in the fire service. The instructors joined the fire service when a 36” chest with 4” chest expansion was required. When I joined this wasn’t needed, more appropriate selection tools were used. Does that mean that I was less capable as I didn’t go through sep cation based on chest size?

 

[y4d344]

Just finished my VSE/M7SJT. I don't know if I did well. Should I be expecting an email anytime soon as when i pressed finish test it just logged me off.

 

[badger85]

Just finished my VSE/M7SJT. I don't know if I did well. Should I be expecting an email anytime soon as when i pressed finish test it just logged me off.

No, as per the first email you got from them with the practice material, they'll let you know within 20 days of the deadline

 

[y4d344]

No, as per the first email you got from them with the practice material, they'll let you know within 20 days of the deadline

Fingers crossed! good luck to everyone doing the VSE/M7SJT

 

[Akeem20]

Fingers crossed! good luck to everyone doing the VSE/M7SJT

Can you attach the practice material would love to have a look?

 

[y4d344]

Can you attach the practice material would love to have a look?

i don't know if i'm allowed to. can anyone confirm if i'm

 

[beeman05]

I’ve not heard for polmadie yet either way. Waiting with baited breath

Same! Fingers crossed folks

 

[Chippychips]

i don't know if i'm allowed to. can anyone confirm if i'm

I don't see the point in doing this. Practice materials will be supplied to everyone successful anyway. OR if you do, do it in a PM/DM.

Also in regards to the comments on tested vs untested, you all make interesting points. But ultimately, if you were a TOC and can afford the luxury of cherry picking and filtering the best candidates, why wouldn't you? I know I would.. even if I didn't have to!
Leaving it to 'experience' or 'on the job' training is risky and time-consuming. Also, the tests are set/arranged by the ORR and RSSB, not the TOC's. Safety is paramount in this industry so how else can you tests someone's 'safety' abilities and attitude towards safety? Perhaps....Psychometrics?
Yeah, some good candidates might have unfortunately had a bad day not passing the tests but may have been excellent for the role, but that's a small price to pay.

Also, the tests are designed to measure reaction and attention. There's a lot of things that you have to do in a driver cab centred around reaction speed, being attentive, differentiating between different bells/tones/alarms etc, as well as the stuff going on outside of the train.

These tests are nothing more than evidence suggesting you have the 'CAPABILITY', of what it takes to be a Train Driver. Even though a rare portion don't pass or quit, it still gives the hiring TOCs a certified level of assurance.

 

[Horizon22]

So removing the tests and select potential drivers on what measurement….what do you define as ‘decent ones’ and how do you know they would have been a ‘better candidate’. If they have the natural talent don’t these tests specifically identify those with this potential. But please expand on how you’d identify these naturals?


I spent many years in the fire service. The instructors joined the fire service when a 36” chest with 4” chest expansion was required. When I joined this wasn’t needed, more appropriate selection tools were used. Does that mean that I was less capable as I didn’t go through sep cation based on chest size?

Not to mention that the thousands of applicants have to be sifted out somehow - a fair and standarised set of assessments is one of the best ways to do this, combined with other parts of the recruitment process.

 

[JohnnyOne]

Just done my VSE & M7SJT, No idea about the SJT, I just went with my head and didn't overthink, had it done in 30 minutes, non the wiser if I did well or not. The VSE 1 & 2 was fine the 3rd part took an adjustment, the paper example makes sense now but didn't before. Don't overthink it just have a crack at it.

 

[y4d344]

Just done my VSE & M7SJT, No idea about the SJT, I just went with my head and didn't overthink, had it done in 30 minutes, non the wiser if I did well or not. The VSE 1 & 2 was fine the 3rd part took an adjustment, the paper example makes sense now but didn't before. Don't overthink it just have a crack at IT

did you receive any email after finishing the test?

 

[JohnnyOne]

No didn't get an email.

 

[Sorcerer]

In case anyone is left wondering in future, you will not get emails confirming that your tests have been completed, and if the OPC tells you "there are currently no tests assigned to you" after finishing them, this means that you have completed them. Once your tests are done, that's it, you just have to play the waiting game for a bit. Furthermore, any tests you are due from now on should come with practice material, and while this material will not be the same as it is on the test, it's not designed to be. The purpose to make sure you have and hone the skills needed to complete the test and therefore proceed further into the trainee driver selection process. That is where everyone has made it this far currently stands.

 

[DanielWhitt]

I failed the M7SJT and VSE last year and after I finished the test, I received and email telling me I'd failed. This time however, I've not received anything yet ? I assumed it was all automated, if you don't reach the set targets, you got a sorry your not good enough email fairly quickly ?

 

[FlyinScotsman.]

I seen earlier in the thread a few have had rejection emails from Edinburgh. Has anyone actually received the VSE and M7 tests for Edinburgh or Polmadie yet?

 

[Aviator88]

The train driving side of things comes much later yes but becoming a train driver in 2023 isn’t just about what buttons to push or powers of concentration, they want the right PEOPLE too.

This, 100%. They're investing in people, not train drivers. These tests, which are moulded around the non-technical skills deemed most pertinent to safe train driving, are not going to generate the perfect candidate all the time, it's true. However, a significant amount of resources have been poured into this research over many, many years and, on average, using these tests increases the likelihood of new candidates succeeding in training and, subsequently, their ongoing employment as a train driver.

To play devil's advocate, there will of course be suitable people who are simply 'bad at tests', but there will be more than enough people of and above that calibre who are good at passing tests as well.

This leads into the crux of the issue - there is no way of knowing for sure how well a person will perform in a job. Somebody who can't pass the tests but would be an excellent driver, unfortunately is too much of a risk because the only way to find out is to give them a couple of hundred hours of expensive training first. In essence, the tests not only increase the likelihood of success - they also limit the financial exposure encountered by the TOC.

 

[FManc]

I failed the M7SJT and VSE last year and after I finished the test, I received and email telling me I'd failed. This time however, I've not received anything yet ? I assumed it was all automated, if you don't reach the set targets, you got a sorry your not good enough email fairly quickly ?

I think that changed for a recent internal campaign. No-one received the pass or fail email for a while after the tests.