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Avanti - Trainee Train Drivers - Multiple Locations (28/02/23)

Aviator88

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
314
Green signal, green signal, green signal, green signal... oh hang on, I needed a junction indicator at that one, I'm going to Manchester today, not Preston - now I've accepted a 'wrong route'.

This is a brilliant and very informative post - thanks for taking the time to write it out!

Regarding the point above about Junction indicators... Is there always enough time to stop between the indicator and the junction? I've noticed that when passing Rugby on the through road, there's not a lot of time between passing the indicator and where the line diverges towards the Trent Valley or Birmingham. Would this be a case of looking out for flashing yellows beforehand?

Obviously this is all stuff that will be taught in the classroom, I'm just curious if it's  always possible to stop in time, at least in theory.
 
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Val3ntine

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2015
Messages
376
Location
London
This is a brilliant and very informative post - thanks for taking the time to write it out!

Regarding the point above about Junction indicators... Is there always enough time to stop between the indicator and the junction? I've noticed that when passing Rugby on the through road, there's not a lot of time between passing the indicator and where the line diverges towards the Trent Valley or Birmingham. Would this be a case of looking out for flashing yellows beforehand?

Obviously this is all stuff that will be taught in the classroom, I'm just curious if it's  always possible to stop in time, at least in theory.

Yes flashing yellows, preliminary route indicators for high speed turnouts. For lower speed ones you are normally checked down by signals to a red which clears once the speed is low enough and if the section ahead is clear.
 

whoosh

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,375
This is a brilliant and very informative post - thanks for taking the time to write it out!

Regarding the point above about Junction indicators... Is there always enough time to stop between the indicator and the junction? I've noticed that when passing Rugby on the through road, there's not a lot of time between passing the indicator and where the line diverges towards the Trent Valley or Birmingham. Would this be a case of looking out for flashing yellows beforehand?

Obviously this is all stuff that will be taught in the classroom, I'm just curious if it's  always possible to stop in time, at least in theory.

Depends on the speed of of the divergence.

Low speed you'd get checked down to a Red. When it cleared you'd get the junction indicator.

There are some you get checked down and the single yellow will have the junction indicator.

You can get greens all the way if the divergence is 10mph or less, under the speed of the main route.


I'm glad you mentioned flashing yellow signals. So, in a four aspect signaling area, you'd get flashing double yellow, flashing single yellow, single yellow with junction indicator.

There are two risks with this:
1. You're expecting the divergence, and get a flashing sequence at a location regularly. But today they are steady, not flashing, so you are actually approaching a red. It's a subtle difference, if you are on "autopilot" and also something called "confirmation bias" can kick in - you are expecting to see a flashing sequence for the diverging route at that location.
You can end up SPADing the junction signal if it's at danger.

2. You are concentrating on the speed of the divergence, and forget that its a single yellow at the junction signal. There are places where the signal will change up, if all is well and the route ahead is clear, so your flashing double yellow, flashing single yellow, single yellow with junction indicator [that normally changes up to green on approach], concentrating on getting the speed for the points, now you're past the signal and its out of sight - and there's a Red Ahead out of sight. Again, you can end up having a SPAD.

We have what management like to call 'Personal Protection Strategies'. Things you do to remind yourself of things coming up, or to maintain situational awareness. 'Risk Triggered Commentary', or RTC is one of these. So you talk to yourself at locations where there is a high risk of mistakes.
 

Aviator88

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
314
Thank you @Val3ntine and @whoosh.

When the recruitment process is so focused on reinforcing how important the skill of 'concentration' is for a train driver, you naturally think of concentrating on the line ahead, looking out for obstructions and signal aspects etc.

Whilst this is undoubtedly part of it, your posts have been really helpful in demonstrating that it's more about concentrating on  everything. That means juggling between what's going on right now (the micro), as well as always being hyper aware of the bigger picture (the macro).

Very, very helpful. Thanks again, and apologies for the thread tangent.
 

FManc

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2011
Messages
396
This is a brilliant and very informative post - thanks for taking the time to write it out!

Regarding the point above about Junction indicators... Is there always enough time to stop between the indicator and the junction? I've noticed that when passing Rugby on the through road, there's not a lot of time between passing the indicator and where the line diverges towards the Trent Valley or Birmingham. Would this be a case of looking out for flashing yellows beforehand?

Obviously this is all stuff that will be taught in the classroom, I'm just curious if it's  always possible to stop in time, at least in theory.

Your example at Rugby is an interesting one as if you’re on the Down Fast (through road) both diverging lines are 125mph at Rugby Trent Valley Junction. You get a PRI (Preliminary Route Indiactor) for this junction, well two, which gives you an indication of what route you’re taking so the move can be done entirely on green signals (no flashing yellow sequence). It’s one of the few places I know of on the WCML where if you notice the PRI is sending you wrong route, you have to react immediately if you’re doing 125mph and it’s a VERY harsh brake, the highest without going into emergency if you want a fighting chance to stop in-time to challenge the routing at the junction signal.
 
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danmcw11

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2024
Messages
10
Location
glasgo
Hi dan thanks for the reply. Are you a Polmadie applicant heading to Crewe for your stage 2 computer tests and cbi? I emailed the OPC and was advised not to have 2 applications live with 2 different TOCs. I was led to believe that as long as you dont fail any of the stage 1 or stage 2 tests then its fine. Any one else experience similar?
Yes polmadie applicant. At crewe today, heading to assessment centre shortly. Thats a bit misleading as i was told otherwise i guess we just wait & see. Have you completed stage 2 test already?
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,319
Your example at Rugby is an interesting one as if you’re on the Down Fast (through road) both diverging lines are 125mph at Rugby Trent Valley Junction. You get a PRI (Preliminary Route Indiactor) for this junction, well two, which gives you an indication of what route you’re taking so the move can be done entirely on green signals (no flashing yellow sequence). It’s one of the few places I know of on the network where if you notice the PRI is sending you wrong route, you have to react immediately if you’re doing 125mph and it’s a VERY harsh brake, the highest without going into emergency if you want a fighting chance to stop in-time to challenge the routing at the junction signal.
You would do well to stop for a couple of our route. Trent jcn on the mml just after Redhill tunnel and East Midlands parkway is the main one.
 

boabocs

Member
Joined
26 Apr 2023
Messages
10
Location
Glasgow
Yes polmadie applicant. At crewe today, heading to assessment centre shortly. Thats a bit misleading as i was told otherwise i guess we just wait & see. Have you completed stage 2 test already?
Not had an invite to Stage 2 yet. Latest email was an apology for the delay and thought everyone waiting in Scotland was at the stage stage. Never realised they had invited applicants to stage 2 yet. Just a waiting game i suppose. Been a year so what another few months

Not had an invite to Stage 2 yet. Latest email was an apology for the delay and thought everyone waiting in Scotland was at the stage stage. Never realised they had invited applicants to stage 2 yet. Just a waiting game i suppose. Been a year so what another few months
Good luck today btw
 

Harvinder

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
271
Depends on the speed of of the divergence.

Low speed you'd get checked down to a Red. When it cleared you'd get the junction indicator.

There are some you get checked down and the single yellow will have the junction indicator.

You can get greens all the way if the divergence is 10mph or less, under the speed of the main route.


I'm glad you mentioned flashing yellow signals. So, in a four aspect signaling area, you'd get flashing double yellow, flashing single yellow, single yellow with junction indicator.

There are two risks with this:
1. You're expecting the divergence, and get a flashing sequence at a location regularly. But today they are steady, not flashing, so you are actually approaching a red. It's a subtle difference, if you are on "autopilot" and also something called "confirmation bias" can kick in - you are expecting to see a flashing sequence for the diverging route at that location.
You can end up SPADing the junction signal if it's at danger.

2. You are concentrating on the speed of the divergence, and forget that its a single yellow at the junction signal. There are places where the signal will change up, if all is well and the route ahead is clear, so your flashing double yellow, flashing single yellow, single yellow with junction indicator [that normally changes up to green on approach], concentrating on getting the speed for the points, now you're past the signal and its out of sight - and there's a Red Ahead out of sight. Again, you can end up having a SPAD.

We have what management like to call 'Personal Protection Strategies'. Things you do to remind yourself of things coming up, or to maintain situational awareness. 'Risk Triggered Commentary', or RTC is one of these. So you talk to yourself at locations where there is a high risk of mistakes.
This is very interesting indeed, is there a video on this?
 

danmcw11

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2024
Messages
10
Location
glasgo
Not had an invite to Stage 2 yet. Latest email was an apology for the delay and thought everyone waiting in Scotland was at the stage stage. Never realised they had invited applicants to stage 2 yet. Just a waiting game i suppose. Been a year so what another few months


Good luck today btw
Thankyou. There was 2 polmadie, 2 edinburgh and liverpool applicant today. Not sure how they process the selection.
 

Spincity

Member
Joined
23 Nov 2019
Messages
133
Location
London
Yes polmadie applicant. At crewe today, heading to assessment centre shortly. Thats a bit misleading as i was told otherwise i guess we just wait & see. Have you completed stage 2 test already?
Avanti do CBI, other TOCs won’t take the result, and can’t sit MMI for 6 months. So will have a big impact on other applications
 

nalla

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2024
Messages
5
Location
winsford
limerickboyo, we both joined the forum same day, dont suppose you did your stage 2 on 29th feb by any chance at crewe
 

Limerickboyo

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2024
Messages
5
Location
England
No. I have passed the all the OPC stages. waiting for the DMI interview with Aventi but at the moment the last email they sent me was them saying sit tight as there are no dates for the DMI yet and they will email when a slot is available
 

Crdif

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2023
Messages
9
Location
Glasgow

nalla

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2024
Messages
5
Location
winsford

danmcw11

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2024
Messages
10
Location
glasgo
How many turned up?

When did you get finished
Sorry only just seeing this. There were 5 in my group 2 females 3 males split between polmadie edinburgh & leeds applicants. I was the first cbi before lunch so i was away around 12;30

Polmadie applicant, just received email stage 2 passed. Now to wait for DMI.
 
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