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Avanti West Coast cancellations

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6Gman

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Help Point.

I suspect there are some steps missing between "getting to the station" and "your MP getting the gate open", I doubt many MPs are monitoring their media accounts with a hotline to Network Rail at almost midnight.
Having met Tim Farron on a few occasions I suspect he is one of the few who probably are contactable in such a scenario.

Presumably people arriving at Oxenholme at that time of night would likely be locals and may well have had the number of their local councillor and/or MP on their phones. Given that Farron's party holds pretty much every council seat in that area it probably wouldn't take long for it to filter to him or his colleagues.
 
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E6007

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There are long running threads under General Discussion entitled ‘When will it all go wrong for the Tories / Johnson’ and similar ones for Labour, Greens and quite possibly others.
The whole current Avanti Up Cock Situation begs the question whether there is a ‘When did it all go wrong for Avanti’ thread or is this it and will Avanti just be cancelled full stop?
PS Other badly performing franchises are available but they don’t necessarily cover the parts of the country you want to travel to.
It's a pity we can't cancel the DfT. That's the source of most of the issues!
 

TUC

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My guess is the "many business" you refer to do not have staff that operate in safety critical roles like the railway does. You cannot just employ a part time train driver without them going through the same training process as a full time train driver for example
It still would be worthwhile investing in training part time and flexible staff. The benefits would more than justify the cost.
 

6Gman

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It still would be worthwhile investing in training part time and flexible staff. The benefits would more than justify the cost.
Odd then that the mainstream industry, as far as I am aware, has never done so.
 

43066

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It still would be worthwhile investing in training part time and flexible staff. The benefits would more than justify the cost.

So instead of spending £100k training one driver you’d spend £200k training two, each of whom will work part time.

I wonder whether the DfT will like that idea…
 
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Scotrail314209

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Side question, does anyone know why the headcodes for trains have seemingly shifted by one or a few numbers?

1S37 05:31 Euston to Glasgow is now 1S36

1M06 05:33 Glasgow to Euston is now 1M05

9S97 17:43 Euston to Glasgow is now 9S96

and so on.

Is there a reason for that?
 

LYuen

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thanks Trainbike46 it appears I can amend my booking to a service that is actually running (I assume that comes with a seat reservation) but I have to pay the price difference between what I paid originally and what the price is now. whilst the price difference isn't huge I just can't bring myself to pay any more to reward Avanti for their incompetence.


nlogax thanks I will do that.
Definitely don't amend your ticket! Take the next train after your original departure time, and remember to claim the delay repay when you finish your journey. Avanti is accountable for the disturbance they are causing.
 

DelayRepay

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They must in no way gain anything extra from being seperate drivers & that includes promotion. They must take the position of the least senior of the two..also for example 12hrs rest must be had for driver B even though driver A covered the previous shift. They also have the same rest day & Sunday count. Should either leave the job share the other has 3 months to find another or must go back to full time hours.

If Driver B is scheduled to work on Monday, would Driver A be allowed to work an overtime shift at the same time?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Side question, does anyone know why the headcodes for trains have seemingly shifted by one or a few numbers?

1S37 05:31 Euston to Glasgow is now 1S36

1M06 05:33 Glasgow to Euston is now 1M05

9S97 17:43 Euston to Glasgow is now 9S96

and so on.

Is there a reason for that?

A mistake is the most likely reason when the emergency timetable was created.
 

Dan_Frank

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If the new trains are open in the timetable than any ticket office should be able to make reservations for you, even if Avanti's contact centre staff have been instructed not to. Nobody should be having to buy new or upgraded tickets simply to make a reservation on a train that, for all effective purposes, they already hold a ticket for.
XAM2175 are you saying I can take my existing ticket to any National Rail station ticket office and get them to make a seat reservation on another train on the same day as my existing ticket ?
 

HamworthyGoods

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XAM2175 are you saying I can take my existing ticket to any National Rail station ticket office and get them to make a seat reservation on another train on the same day as my existing ticket ?

If the trains are open for reservations and aren’t sold out yes that is the case.
 

XAM2175

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XAM2175 are you saying I can take my existing ticket to any National Rail station ticket office and get them to make a seat reservation on another train on the same day as my existing ticket ?
If the trains are open for reservations and aren’t sold out yes that is the case.
As @HamworthyGoods has said, if reservations are available for the new train then yes.
 

muz379

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The culture is very adversarial, but that doesn’t generally translate to personal animosity between staff and their immediate line managers, in my experience. Albeit that varies by location!
To be fair I usually find that the culture locally between staff and immediate line managers(even reps) is often fairly good and theres a bit of mutual understanding as immediate line managers have had some time on the job . The adversarlal relationships usually exist further up the hierarchy , and even then its not unusual for immediate line managers to make off the record comments about their seniors as well .

Its one of those industries with an above average number of people that are genuinely enthusiastic about the industry as well , but that is generally reflected at the lower ends of the hierarchy not the upper ones , so there is a perception (not always correct) that those non railwaymen with no interest in the industry in senior positions dont understand the industry .
 

The Prisoner

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Given that Avanti have turned one of the best operated franchises* into arguably the worst in less than two and a half years should there be a countdown thread to them being binned off? The knives are sharpening.

There was clearly a kudos for working for Virgin which kept the staff valued and the service moving.

Certainly as a customer the WCML has gone utterly down the pan - I won't use it again for the foreseeable and am driving to the lakes now.

* Yes i know it's not a franchise any more, but it was when they took it.
 

Carlisle

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Odd then that the mainstream industry, as far as I am aware, has never done so.
Absolutely, but have part time drivers never happened because it wouldn’t make any financial or operational sense or because it’s known unions would go all out to oppose it or something else entirely.?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Given that Avanti have turned one of the best operated franchises* into arguably the worst in less than two and a half years should there be a countdown thread to them being binned off? The knives are sharpening.
There already is a break point at the end of October, when the current Avanti ERMA contract expires.
It is supposed to be replaced by a National Rail Contract for at least 4 years, and is being negotiated now.
It's up to DfT in the next couple of months to decide if they want to continue with Avanti, or to bring in OLR, or to rebid the contract.
 

philthetube

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It still would be worthwhile investing in training part time and flexible staff. The benefits would more than justify the cost.
the first problem would be finding people wanting to work part time who were able to do full time hours for the training, the amount that there is to learn, it would not be practical to train 2 days a week.
 

Bertie the bus

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There was clearly a kudos for working for Virgin which kept the staff valued and the service moving.
That is something that has been stated repeatedly on this thread. Virgin kept their staff happy and so they were prepared to work overtime and their rest days for Virgin. That is fine for a Virgin company but on the railway Virgin were only temporary franchise holders so having staff who loved Virgin and would do anything for them is of no use to future franchise holders and is no way to run a public transport system.
 

craigybagel

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That is something that has been stated repeatedly on this thread. Virgin kept their staff happy and so they were prepared to work overtime and their rest days for Virgin. That is fine for a Virgin company but on the railway Virgin were only temporary franchise holders so having staff who loved Virgin and would do anything for them is of no use to future franchise holders and is no way to run a public transport system.
And yet it worked pretty well for 22 years.....
 

cambsy

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I looked at the Avanti revised timetable, and it struck me, how low the service had dropped now, with just 4 trains an hour. From the 9 trains an hour off peak, and 11 an hour peak, which is as bad or worse then BR ran, before virgin came along and revitalised the WCML, Avanti should hang their head in shame, it a sad enticement to drop service levels so low. Virgin weren’t perfect, and had flaws, but personally I like them, as they had a forward thinking attitude, and revitalised a some what overlooked main artery for the UK, How i bet, the DFT, regret getting rid of virgin Trains on the WCML.
 

Bertie the bus

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And you think things would somehow be better now if Virgin had treated it's staff like c**p all those years?
No I don't and that isn't the point I'm making. The point I'm making is people should be recruited onto the railway who want to work on the railway, not who want to work for and love Virgin. Virgin were always temporary so having people who have a loyalty to Virgin was always storing up trouble because at some point they wouldn't be working for them but they would still be working on the railway.
 

philthetube

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No I don't and that isn't the point I'm making. The point I'm making is people should be recruited onto the railway who want to work on the railway, not who want to work for and love Virgin. Virgin were always temporary so having people who have a loyalty to Virgin was always storing up trouble because at some point they wouldn't be working for them but they would still be working on the railway.
I think you are missing the point, the reason why Virgin worked is because the staff were well treated, respected and not taken for granted, had Avanti treated staff in the same way they would not have had the issues they are having.

As soon as you take staff for granted, and assume that they will help out then things go wrong, Had Virgin treated their staff in the way that we hear that they are currently being treated the same issues would have arisen.

The people we are talking about did want to work on the railway and have, in many cases been on the railway for 30+ years, happily, until recently, they joined when BR were in charge and railway jobs were not the well paid jobs they are now. Many have decided that they don't need the current grief and have decided to retire early, as is their right.
 

Horizon22

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It'll be placed squarely on the driver/conductor/dispatcher involved. Because when something goes wrong its easier and more expedient to blame the person who makes the final mistake rather than anything organizational. That way you can dispose of the individual and continue to pretend everything else is fine. "You can't be tired, the spreadsheet says so" kind of situation.

To an extent; if it’s serious enough to involve an RAIB investigation, they will absolutely start looking at underlying factors including things like fatigue and workload.

I doubt you are going to get much help from a help point at close to midnight. Even if you got an answer they probably wouldn't do anything useful.

If it was a choice between a help point and Tim Farron it would be Tim Farron every time.

An emergency call point (the green button) would put you through to a 24/7 route control centre with railway staff. I agree pressing the blue button would be not much use and probably slower but would eventually get you there through National Rail Enquiries staff
 
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craigybagel

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No I don't and that isn't the point I'm making. The point I'm making is people should be recruited onto the railway who want to work on the railway, not who want to work for and love Virgin. Virgin were always temporary so having people who have a loyalty to Virgin was always storing up trouble because at some point they wouldn't be working for them but they would still be working on the railway.

I think you are missing the point, the reason why Virgin worked is because the staff were well treated, respected and not taken for granted, had Avanti treated staff in the same way they would not have had the issues they are having.

As soon as you take staff for granted, and assume that they will help out then things go wrong, Had Virgin treated their staff in the way that we hear that they are currently being treated the same issues would have arisen.

The people we are talking about did want to work on the railway and have, in many cases been on the railway for 30+ years, happily, until recently, they joined when BR were in charge and railway jobs were not the well paid jobs they are now. Many have decided that they don't need the current grief and have decided to retire early, as is their right.
Exactly this. Certainly when I worked for Virgin, I can't think of anyone who worked in a different way because of the company logo on their name badge. I also don't recall my own feelings towards the Virgin group being tested as part of the recruitment process. And my reasons for taking the job were nothing to do with a desire to work for the Great Bearded One himself and everything to do with getting a foothold on the railway - an industry I'm still proud to be part of many years later, despite the fact I left Virgin before the Avanti take over.

People were proud to work for a company that looked after us. Yes, the Virgin brand might have a bit more mystique than your average bus company - but morale was high back then because we were treated well. And the result of all of this was a TOC that provided a good service. What's not to like?
 

DelayRepay

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If Driver B is scheduled to work on Monday, would Driver A be allowed to work an overtime shift at the same time?

Certainly not. Why would they? You've lost me.

What I meant was:
Assume A and B are job share drivers. 'They' are booked to work on Monday and B is the individual working that shift.
The TOC has overtime available on Monday, and A would like to work as he wants the money.
Is A allowed to work the overtime shift on Monday given B is already working on Monday (so the overtime could not be worked if A and B were a single person).

If not, this seems rather silly - A is missing out on overtime which he wants to work, and the TOC is going to have to cancel services due to lack of a driver. Who exactly is benefiting here?
 

modernrail

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I looked at the Avanti revised timetable, and it struck me, how low the service had dropped now, with just 4 trains an hour. From the 9 trains an hour off peak, and 11 an hour peak, which is as bad or worse then BR ran, before virgin came along and revitalised the WCML, Avanti should hang their head in shame, it a sad enticement to drop service levels so low. Virgin weren’t perfect, and had flaws, but personally I like them, as they had a forward thinking attitude, and revitalised a some what overlooked main artery for the UK, How i bet, the DFT, regret getting rid of virgin Trains on the WCML.
It makes me so bloody angry. The WCML had huge amounts spent on it, taxpayer money. For years it worked well. Yes there were some things that were ridiculous under Virgin. The peak pricing and the Euston stampede being the main 2 for me, but generally, it worked. Every day thousands of people travelling at speed for work, to see family and friends, for holidays, not using cars. Massive increase in passenger numbers.

The whole thing has fallen apart because an idiot DfT appointed the wrong party, even though we all know exactly how bad Worst tend to be. Horrible little company. The DfT has then compounded the problem by focussing on completely the wrong oversight. Treasury has then compounded the issue by not understanding how important the line is to economic activity and prioritising getting involved in what it does not know about.

Now that heavily invested in infrastructure is running a pathetic turn up and hope shambles that, let’s be clear about this, wouldn’t have been allowed to happen in 99% of other countries. Give me one other example of a prime national infrastructure being allowed to slip so far so fast, anywhere in the world.

Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow are 4 of our biggest cities. Yet they are effectively without a functioning railway. The Government couldn’t give a toss, because it itself is just a bunch of absolute amateurs with zero skill and a lot of vacuous hot air. It does not even cross their tiny little minds that they should shut up and do some actual work for the people that elected them. They are too busy having some sort of freak show beauty parade in what is meant to be a politics free August.

Let’s face it, this is not the only area of total breakdown in public services. The country has got the country it asked for by prioritising entirely the wrong things over the last 5 years. Whilst being completely distracted by splitting the country down the middle, loads of really important stuff has fallen down the cracks.

The worst generation of leadership this country has ever been subject to. They say an era gets the leadership it deserves….
 

TUC

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the first problem would be finding people wanting to work part time who were able to do full time hours for the training, the amount that there is to learn, it would not be practical to train 2 days a week.
It would be quite reasonable, and not that unusual in other jobs, to expect staff who will be part-time to make themselves available for longer hours for training. In any event it is a route that should be explored to see how many applicants come forward. There is little to lose from testing it out.
 
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