https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68650114
Avanti to pay drivers an extra £600 a shift for overtime!
Avanti to pay drivers an extra £600 a shift for overtime!
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Avanti West Coast Cancellations
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distinctratio
Member
I honestly couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this.
Strange that no Secretary of State can resolve this issue of rest day working?
Mark Harper said as much during the Select Cttee. How much is this going to cost the railway? People moan about it being one of the most expensive systems well here’s proof !
Mark Harper said as much during the Select Cttee. How much is this going to cost the railway? People moan about it being one of the most expensive systems well here’s proof !
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
DafT are paying out far more than that on delay repay so not a big price to pay and thats why the've agreed to it. Of course this is the price for failing to train enough drivers over the last 20 years. Risk now is thats clearly the baseline for any operator that has a RDW agreement coming up for renewal.
distinctratio
Member
Ah right, this makes a lot more sense now.
Hellboydce
Member
Nothing to do with cancellations
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Sad Sprinter
Established Member
I think I’d rather talk about liveries…
It’s less than time * 2 for Avanti drivers, so not at all unreasonable for overtime in that respect. It won’t be far off other higher paying TOCs such as SWR and ARL.
Drivers at all TOCs do now need a significant pay rise to get us back to where we were in 2019 in real terms.
However, the BBC article is inaccurate:
AIUI the £600 is the total payment for a rest day, that will replace the prior arrangement of £125 plus basic salary. It’s not £600 plus basic, as implied above.
I’m not clear on whether the £600 is a minimum, based on an average 8:45 hour day, so that drivers could achieve slightly more per day for longer shifts.
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HurdyGurdy
Member
BBC reporting at it's best, there.
HamworthyGoods
Established Member
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The same deal as OLR agreed with TPE drivers.
The precedent has already been set, this was the deal agreed at TPE by OLR and that’s why ASLEF would only agree to the same at Avanti.
theironroad
Established Member
As Avanti is a DfT TOC, I assume that the DfT / RDG must have had some say in signing this RDW agreement off?
If so, think its done a big disservice to all other DfT TOC employees that ASLEF have agreed a deal like this while there has been ZERO movement on the national dispute and negotiations for a pay deal for base salaries. RDW payments aren't pensionable, so not only is the current multi-year pay freeze having impact now, but well into retirement too.
If Avanti/RDG/DfT wanted a new RDW agreement, it should have tied to movement on the bigger issue.
edit: having just read post 222 about it being a similar deal to TPE, than beggars even more incredulity.
If so, think its done a big disservice to all other DfT TOC employees that ASLEF have agreed a deal like this while there has been ZERO movement on the national dispute and negotiations for a pay deal for base salaries. RDW payments aren't pensionable, so not only is the current multi-year pay freeze having impact now, but well into retirement too.
If Avanti/RDG/DfT wanted a new RDW agreement, it should have tied to movement on the bigger issue.
edit: having just read post 222 about it being a similar deal to TPE, than beggars even more incredulity.
HurdyGurdy
Member
In what sense? Other than being a TOC which has a contract with DfT.
On the other hand Avanti (and TPE) have gone without RDW for some time, and ASLEF have been happy to sanction other RDW deals throughout the dispute, which many of us have been glad of to recoup lost pay on strike days.
Tying that (local) issue to the national dispute would have made the last two years a lot more financially difficult for many, so wouldn’t have been a good strategy in terms of keeping support. If this is the new benchmark that bodes well for lower paying TOCs in future.
theironroad
Established Member
As distinguished from TOCs that aren't governed by the DfT/RDG where ASLEF have managed to negotiate successful pay deals, such as the devolved nations and open access operators in England.
It is the DfT/RDG refusing to come to the table for English DfT run TOCs.
Wearsunscreen
Member
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What are you on about...
185
Established Member
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I could.
The £600 figure was cynically brought to the table by FirstGroup Plc knowing full well they were going to go to the politicians and the press with it just days later.
This scenario was discussed in messrooms at every TOC the length of the country - the £600 was a small price to pay for political gain against Aslef.
We generally agreed last week this will likely see another escalation of the industrial action - which last time occurred just hours after Mark Harper opened his mouth and denigrated the UK Railways drivers, effectively saying that they were paid too much for doing too little.
That would only be the case if they would otherwise have got a higher settlement than they actually will end up with. Rest assured that the government would have been tight-fisted with other grades regardless of what they did or didn't offer as a rest day payment.
As I wrote, if the drivers get all the pay the there’s little left for others, this is due to privatisation, before this grades were relatively similar now due to bargaining power drivers pay has gone up an awful lot more than others, just a reality and one managers, drivers and unions don’t want open up about.
I don’t blame drivers at all by the way, I’m amazed the signalmen were never as astute as this.
Quite simply you can run a railway without a cleaner for a day, or platform staff or barrier and ticket office staff.
Pay talks for some toc’s I would imagine get resolved within a morning for a driver whilst other grades within the same toc ask for the same increase and get refused and brushed aside.
*Tongue in cheek * Theyll probably get the franchise stripped on the 28th , government say we can't get out of any expensive deals struck(with our say so ) but we will take all the credit for increased perforamnce
You clearly haven't been keeping in tune with what has been happening of late . RMT members were offered a no strings pay increase for the same years ASLEF members are now out on the cobbles trying to get the same for .
When has any RMT member nationwide ever got £600 for a shift or pro rata that to their grade for overtime?
This isn’t a pay deal this is an overtime deal, vastly different.
HamworthyGoods
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I’m afraid you are wrong there.
£600 was the deal bought to the table by OLR at TPE to agree rest day work with ASLEF, who made it clear to Avanti they wouldn’t accept anything less than had been offered at TPE.
Some at the higher end of the grading structure in operations at network rail have fairly generous OT enhancements . Of course the RMT doesn't sanction RDW at any employers AFAIK in the same way ASLEF does so their ability to negotiate RDW agreements is somewhat different .
But the post of yours I was quoting referenced how you imagined "Pay talks" being resolved . Which was the point I was directly was responding to .
Well I was referring to a specific toc, but I can think of others where the pay talks are always before other grades, always, why is that?
Also once the drivers pay is sorted the other grades get the rest, no axe to grind just a reality of kpis and privatisation.
Some signalmen may get good overtime benefits but nothing like that at all.
Also once the drivers pay is sorted the other grades get the rest, no axe to grind just a reality of kpis and privatisation.
Some signalmen may get good overtime benefits but nothing like that at all.
As mentioned upthread, having gone to Manchester and back to London this weekend to see friends, this agreement is very welcome and already seems to be making a difference. There were few cancellations on the Euston-Manchester route this weekend, and trains seemed to run on time. The staff seemed cheerful and the trains well loaded, but not packed. If that's the outcome of this RDW deal, I definitely welcome it. If and when Avanti seems to be reliable again, it'll pay for itself via increased patronage. My experience this weekend has made me more likely to go to Manchester to see friends/family - the recent unreliability had really put me off.
Drivers probably do more have greater bargaining power than most other grades, but it isn’t a case of one pot which is distributed between grades; a lot of the driver increases have been due to selling things over the years. In relation to this dispute RMT members have now received a rise whereas ASLEF have not, as noted above, so it’s also not the case that ASLEF always comes first.
High grade signallers get similar pay to drivers and won’t be far off that for a Sunday, especially as they do 12 hours, and have other shift allowances that drivers generally don’t.
That’s good to hear; I know a few people who have said similar.
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irish_rail
Established Member
Nearly spat out my cornflakes reading this! Have you been on the moon the past 12 months? Whilst drivers continue to go to work with zero payrise after 5 years, other grades have ALL had rises that drivers are currently funding. Oh the irony.
ASLEF now need to only renew rest day working agreements to this new £600 going forward. Dft have to realise if its good enough for Avanti , then why not GWR or XC etc etc. Precedent well and truly set.
All toc’s?
But it is, the money given to drivers first and what’s left is given to others.
Signalmen don’t earn what drivers do per hour, saying they do as they doing 12 hours is disingenuous. Even then it’s not £600 but that wasn’t my point, my point was and is other grades will get a lower pay increase due to drivers getting the lions share, I include all toc’s in this and not solely ones in dispute.
It’s bargaining power no more no less.
Maybe a grain of truth in that as following privatisation the most prestigious & best paying domestic TOCs ie GNER & Virgin also appeared the keenest to outsource as many non frontline roles as possible.
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