Avanti West Coast contract extended for six months

[Dan G]

False. ASLEF did not withdraw Rest day working at Avanti.

Not officially. But 80% of drivers stopped taking overtime, all at the same time.

Bottom line is AWC have overcome that, with service improving significantly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

DfT clearly didn't want to put Avanti into the OLR camp, and mention the staff issue with overtime/RDW as being a contributory factor to recent performance.
Whether the same largesse will extend to TPE we'll have to see, but they have a few weeks to get off the bottom rung of the performance ladder.

It's six months off, but FirstGroup may have two 5/10-year contracts in the bag before the next election (GWR and Avanti).
Labour would find it hard to unpick those in its "nationalisation" agenda.

Meanwhile the backlash has started (My London):

MSN

Outrage as Avanti West Coast will continue running London-Manchester trains despite most services being delayed​

Controversial train operating company Avanti West Coast has been awarded a second, additional six months of running London's main intercity services to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, North Wales, the Lake District and Scotland by the government. This is despite months of backlash, with both the Mayors of London and Manchester, Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham, calling on the government to rescind the contract due to poor performance.

The text of the piece is reasonably factual, but the headline is, well, outrageous.

 

[Watershed]

False. ASLEF did not withdraw Rest day working at Avanti.

Not officially, perhaps. But frankly this line of defence seems just as unbelievable as BoJo claiming he wasn't breaking any guidance when he held his lockdown parties...

Indeed, there's no evidence of coordinated RDW withdrawal.

What other explanation can you give for almost all drivers stopping RDW overnight during an industrial dispute? One can accept that they were unhappy with their conditions, but for most of them to be happy to work RDW one day and almost none the next, does seem an incredible coincidence to put it mildly.

ASLEF's continued denial of any connection stretches credulity. Surely, in any event, their aim would be better served if they admitted that they were behind it and used it as a bargaining chip...

 

[43066]

What other explanation can you give for almost all drivers stopping RDW overnight during an industrial dispute?

You mean other than the points I made up thread?

ASLEF's continued denial of any connection stretches credulity. Surely, in any event, their aim would be better served if they admitted that they were behind it and used it as a bargaining chip...

In which case why wouldn’t they simply do so? It’s no secret that an “official” rest day work ban would be possible. If anything that tends to suggest it was simply drivers deciding amongst themselves without any involvement from the union ASLEF.

 

[185]

Not officially, perhaps. But frankly this line of defence seems just as unbelievable as BoJo

What other explanation can you give for almost all drivers stopping RDW overnight during an industrial dispute?

A fair shortage during the kids holiday period made 50 times worse by both former Managing Director Whittingham and former Transport Minister Shapps both wrongly slating drivers who...

....then really did withdraw their labour. One person in their resourcing said he'd gone from 40ish rest day work volunteers per day down to 3.

Total incompetence. FirstGroup & Tory style.

 

[Krokodil]

What other explanation can you give for almost all drivers stopping RDW overnight during an industrial dispute? One can accept that they were unhappy with their conditions, but for most of them to be happy to work RDW one day and almost none the next, does seem an incredible coincidence to put it mildly.

It came about the time that Grant Shapps was talking about banning strikers from recouping their lost wages through overtime. So it's no wonder that people said "you need my overtime more than I do" in response.

ASLEF's continued denial of any connection stretches credulity. Surely, in any event, their aim would be better served if they admitted that they were behind it and used it as a bargaining chip...

Can you prove that this is organised? Any branch meeting minutes or whatever? You ought to be careful, lest you find yourselves libelling someone.

 

[Carlisle]

ASLEF's continued denial of any connection stretches credulity. Surely, in any event, their aim would be better served if they admitted that they were behind it and used it as a bargaining chip...

Why would the union need to do that,? Considering Avanti were already busy moving those bosses on who’d attempted to put such allegations into the public domain they need do no more than keep stumm

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you prove that this is organised? Any branch meeting minutes or whatever? You ought to be careful, lest you find yourselves libelling someone.

It depends what one means by "organised".

Did the Unions do it? Almost certainly not - if they wanted to do a formal withdrawal of overtime they have processes to do that legally.

Did staff talk about it in the messroom, tell their mates about it in the pub, ask if they're still doing overtime and if so why? Almost certainly, if I was in that position I would be doing.

 

[CAF397]

Not officially, perhaps. But frankly this line of defence seems just as unbelievable as BoJo claiming he wasn't breaking any guidance when he held his lockdown parties...


What other explanation can you give for almost all drivers stopping RDW overnight during an industrial dispute? One can accept that they were unhappy with their conditions, but for most of them to be happy to work RDW one day and almost none the next, does seem an incredible coincidence to put it mildly.

ASLEF's continued denial of any connection stretches credulity. Surely, in any event, their aim would be better served if they admitted that they were behind it and used it as a bargaining chip...

You do realise that rest day working is a personal preference?

At my TOC there appears to be a new Rest Day Working deal imminent that is seen by management to sort out all our performance problems. But as I've not worked a Rest Day since December 2021, I'm not in any rush to work them now. A fair number of my colleagues are of the same opinion. When we have been publicly named and shamed by company management and government, our salaries paraded around in public, attempts at slicing up our T&Cs just to pay for our own payrise, then you will realise we don't need a Union to tell us what to do.

 

[43066]

It depends what one means by "organised".

Did the Unions do it? Almost certainly not - if they wanted to do a formal withdrawal of overtime they have processes to do that legally.

Did staff talk about it in the messroom, tell their mates about it in the pub, ask if they're still doing overtime and if so why? Almost certainly, if I was in that position I would be doing.

You’d potentially be in very hot water if you were overheard saying anything in a mess-room which could be construed as inciting unlawful industrial action - it could potentially lead to an accusation of gross misconduct. I’ve known ASLEF reps to actively shut any such discussions down!

 

[12LDA28C]

Avanti WC was doing OK until Aslef withdrew overtime working as part of their pay dispute.

If you call relying heavily on RDW and overtime to run the advertised service 'OK' then you have a different idea of how to run a railway than many people, including me.

 

[Krokodil]

It depends what one means by "organised".

Did the Unions do it? Almost certainly not - if they wanted to do a formal withdrawal of overtime they have processes to do that legally.

Did staff talk about it in the messroom, tell their mates about it in the pub, ask if they're still doing overtime and if so why? Almost certainly, if I was in that position I would be doing.

I don't doubt that some drivers made public their decision not to volunteer for overtime. In the same way that "they've declined my leave request even though there's spare cover - I'm doing no more favours for them".

Watershed was trying to insinuate was that this was ASLEF's responsibility, something which is clearly untrue.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Reading First Group release they advise Andy Mellors now MD with immediate effect which is a good move that will calm things down and allow progress to be made from here..

Yes AWC got themselves in a mess but they've largely delivered on their promises for the Dec22 TT changes unlike their sister company TPE which remains mired in chaos on a daily basis and im sure Andy Burnham would rather see given to OLR.

 

[baza585]

Reading First Group release they advise Andy Mellors now MD with immediate effect which is a good move that will calm things down and allow progress to be made from here..

Yes AWC got themselves in a mess but they've largely delivered on their promises for the Dec22 TT changes unlike their sister company TPE which remains mired in chaos on a daily basis and im sure Andy Burnham would rather see given to OLR.

Spot on.

I suspect TPE will be sacrificed for political reasons but under Mellors control, Avanti will continue to improve slowly, so long as IR don't get even worse.

Burnham needs to focus on his bus franchising which isn't going well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Burnham needs to focus on his bus franchising which isn't going well.

Appears to be going fine to me. There are some issues preceding it with companies deciding they no longer want to run commercial services, but that was always going to happen as part of the transition.

Burnham seems to be interested in all modes and in integration. This is absolutely excellent.

 

[Confused52]

Reading First Group release they advise Andy Mellors now MD with immediate effect which is a good move that will calm things down and allow progress to be made from here..

Yes AWC got themselves in a mess but they've largely delivered on their promises for the Dec22 TT changes unlike their sister company TPE which remains mired in chaos on a daily basis and im sure Andy Burnham would rather see given to OLR.

Why will Mellors make any difference when according to many commenters here the company is incompetent in most ways they can think of. If changing the MD can change things a great deal the old one can't have actually been the real problem because organisations can't change that fast.

From the commenting I would expect this thread not to last until tomorrow and I actually want to know the answer.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why will Mellors make any difference when according to many commenters here the company is incompetent in most ways they can think of. If changing the MD can change things a great deal the old one can't have actually been the real problem because organisations can't change that fast.

From the commenting I would expect this thread not to last until tomorrow and I actually want to know the answer.

Whittingham was incendiary and fractured management staff relationships.

 

[Confused52]

Whittingham was incendiary and fractured management staff relationships.

So is the contention is that a degree of non co-operation will be reversed enough to make things start to get better? If so, why on earth wasn't something done earlier? (and thanks for the swift reply) (as in after the remarks that are effectively still being debated here today)

Actually I see Whittingham stepped down last September, so there was just a delay in appointment.

 

[MotCO]

Burnham needs to focus on his bus franchising which isn't going well.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Krokodil]

Whittingham was incendiary and fractured management staff relationships.

Granted, but rebuilding relationships won't happen quickly.

 

[Silverlink]

National Express it is for me then for the next 6 months

 

[Sorcerer]

I can't say I'm surprised at the news to be honest. Aside from a series of improvements already made, the problems facing Avanti are mostly systematic, and so changing management won't immediately bring about changes. As we've seen on the forums themselves, Avanti have attempted to recruit more drivers to bring back services, which cannot be said for TransPennine Express since I haven't even seen a smidge of recruitment efforts from them, therefore I'll be astounded if they don't get their contract terminated. I know I said the problems are systematic, but management still has a role in these series of absolute shambles.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can't say I'm surprised at the news to be honest. Aside from a series of improvements already made, the problems facing Avanti are mostly systematic, and so changing management won't immediately bring about changes. As we've seen on the forums themselves, Avanti have attempted to recruit more drivers to bring back services, which cannot be said for TransPennine Express since I haven't even seen a smidge of recruitment efforts from them, therefore I'll be astounded if they don't get their contract terminated. I know I said the problems are systematic, but management still has a role in these series of absolute shambles.

Listening to Mark Harper responses in parliament he pointed out that NR Infrastructure problems are causing as many issues for Avanti as their own problems. He was on his brief as well as one of the MPs from NW started her question by saying her train had been cancelled and he had clearly been given the NR ops report as said it had caused by a points failure causing one cancellation and two part cancellations with trains starting back from different locations. Thing is AWC were in good shape till Whittingham managed to fracture relations so its just a question of restoring the working environment that existed. I can't see anyone doing anything better any quicker than just keeping the current AWC executive under pressure. The LNER OLR team is basically the Virgin team as they bailed out for financial reasons from a functioning entity so not sure they are the panacea people what to believe. The other issue here is TPE are looking as though they are in a doomsday loop and unable to make progress so OLR need to be kept on standby.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

National Express it is for me then for the next 6 months

Any particular reason?
The train service pretty much seems to be delivering what it says on the tin.

 

[Horizon22]

You’d potentially be in very hot water if you were overheard saying anything in a mess-room which could be construed as inciting unlawful industrial action - it could potentially lead to an accusation of gross misconduct. I’ve known ASLEF reps to actively shut any such discussions down!

People are smart about such things - unofficial WhatsApp groups and channels, colleagues just chatting etc. I don't think anyone who has ever been in employment is naive enough to suggest these things can't happen.

Ultimately people are individually asked by rosters & resourcing to work rest days. If lots of people suddenly go "no thanks guv" then that will be seriously detrimental to the service. Nobody is necessarily doing anything "unlawful" or worthy of "gross misconduct" in such a case. It's indicative of a wider morale problem. The government might start going up in arms about "unlawful industrial action" but I bet they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

We can all agree that work shouldn't be routinely covered by overtime but we know it is (and the railway is by far the only sector to do so) and has been for decades.

For various reasons, Avanti's resourcing has now stabilised compared to where it was in Autumn and Winter. Whether it is sustained is a different matter.

 

[Silverlink]

Any particular reason?
The train service pretty much seems to be delivering what it says on the tin.

Prices are ridiculous & the last 3 times I booked Avanti they have either been delayed or cancelled. Can’t beat a £4.90 coach ticket

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Can’t beat a £4.90 coach ticket

That is subjective, depends on what value you attach to each of time and money.

Prices are ridiculous

Fares are unlike to change regardless of operator as DfT sets the revenue targets.

 

[Class 170101]

Fares are unlike to change regardless of operator as DfT sets the revenue targets.

And sets the regulated fares as well

 

[sk688]

Strange incidents on Avanti when doing London to Liverpool return using them, on both the outbound and inbound journey the TM advised that due to a " network wide issue " plug sockets would not be working on the train. It was a refurbed 11 car unit on the way out and an unrefurbed 9-car on the return leg but curious as to what network wide issues would cause just the plug sockets to be unusable

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strange incidents on Avanti when doing London to Liverpool return using them, on both the outbound and inbound journey the TM advised that due to a " network wide issue " plug sockets would not be working on the train. It was a refurbed 11 car unit on the way out and an unrefurbed 9-car on the return leg but curious as to what network wide issues would cause just the plug sockets to be unusable

A known fault requiring them all to be turned off until fixed, presumably.