Aysgarth Station - Wensleydale Railway

[markindurham]

By the way Tornado and the P2 are not rival projects. Tornado was delivered and the P2 is being built by the same organisation who built, owns and operates Tornado.

I think he meant that there are two "rival" P2 Locomotives being built.

Agreed. However, I fancy that the Darlington gang will have their next newbuild (a V4?) after 2007 "Prince of Wales" running before the Doncaster P2 group are even halfway to completing their new "Cock o'the North", I'm afraid

 

[alexl92]

There only really needs to be a small fleet of locomotives capable of 90mph to keep West and East Coast steam going. Tornado is obviously going to head that roster, but the incoming P2 will no doubt be aimed at the same market (though it still baffles me that there seem to be two rival projects running simultaneously!) Any other locomotives like Bittern which get dispensation are only going to help matters.

Depends what you mean by small. When 60009 and 46233 both failed within a few days of each other ahead of railtours recently, 46100 was drafted in for both. But failing that, at present there's only 60103, 70013 or Tornado currently available on the mainline that could handle the same load on the same schedule - AFAIK a Jubilee wouldn't be able to? Taking into account that Tornado is DBC-operated only, and that 70013 is based in the south, that doesn't leave much breathing room on WCRC Class 7/8 trains.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say Network Rail decided that only class 7 & 8P locos were allowed to operate on the national network (i.e. those capable of hauling long trains at high speeds). You'd probably have to make sure that there was consistently a larger pool than there presently is, available to all companies - otherwise you'd risk a higher proportion of cancellations because instead of being able to draft in a pair of Black 5s you have to find a like-for-like replacement that's route cleared. I know there are 4494, 60007, 60532, 70000, 71000, 46201 and various Bulleid Pacifics under repair or restoration at the moment, plus the new P2 but even if a good number of those were available at any given time, the respective owners may not want all of them certified for 90mph.

On the other hand, Hosking & Co must have received sufficient reassurance that there is a future for steam on the mainline otherwise they wouldnt have plunged so much money into it, surely?

Agreed. However, I fancy that the Darlington gang will have their next newbuild (a V4?) after 2007 "Prince of Wales" running before the Doncaster P2 group are even halfway to completing their new "Cock o'the North", I'm afraid

I'd put a small bet that the V3 (A1 trust's #4) will be ready first

 

[Marmaduke]

On the other hand, Hosking & Co must have received sufficient reassurance that there is a future for steam on the mainline otherwise they wouldnt have plunged so much money into it, surely?

I don't think that any organisation will have been given any long term assurance - In industry, changes to plans are made daily. Look all the way back to the BTC decision in Beechings Day to end steam and not a steam locomotive ever to run on BR beyond a certain date INCLUDING privately owned locomotives that had been purchased from BR.

Alan Pegler bough the Scotsman straight out of BR in 1963 and he managed to pull a few strings to get his loco to remain on the main line up to a certain date beyond the steam ban.

There were many other locos that were not allowed to run on mainline, unlike the FS.

What I am saying is that today, next month, next year or whenever, situations change and these are usually driven by circumstances which occur. I think anything that potentially risks the network further is always going to be under threat.

Perhaps what happens then is restricted operations, fewer charters run on main line, more pushed onto branch lines, then leading in time to fewer and fewer operations.

I think the big two will be in the know as to where this is already going. WCRC seem to have the monopoly on the West Highland line and it could lead to other scenic lines that effectively get taken over in a formal way specifically for Steam but in a scheduled service?? A kind of hybrid owned heritage railway??

Perhaps thats where any railways like the WR with a mainline connection, with the p-way owned by NR and of interesting length and scenic value perhaps become interesting to a "Heritage" TOC faced with an uncertain future?

 

[mushroomchow]

You hit the nail on the head, @Marmaduke. I still see Mr. Smith's interest in Aysgarth as a prerequisite to the use of the WR as a WCRC outpost, especially given its mainline connection and sporadic services.

After all, it's not often these days that 22 miles of track that is A) pretty well maintained, B) of modern (ish) standards, C) with tourist potential if properly marketed and D) barely used finds itself potentially on the brink of sale or lease at cut-down prices. The more I think about it, the more logical it seems. They don't have to run a heritage railway every week of the year - heaven knows the Wensleydale struggles to do that now - but even if they did, that leaves a sizable stretch of line for safe testing of locomotives for their mainline fleet free for most of the year, with only the occasional MOD service to plan around.

 

[paul1609]

On the other hand, Hosking & Co must have received sufficient reassurance that there is a future for steam on the mainline otherwise they wouldnt have plunged so much money into it, surely?

I don't think that any organisation will have been given any long term assurance - In industry, changes to plans are made daily. Look all the way back to the BTC decision in Beechings Day to end steam and not a steam locomotive ever to run on BR beyond a certain date INCLUDING privately owned locomotives that had been purchased from BR.

Alan Pegler bough the Scotsman straight out of BR in 1963 and he managed to pull a few strings to get his loco to remain on the main line up to a certain date beyond the steam ban.

There were many other locos that were not allowed to run on mainline, unlike the FS.

What I am saying is that today, next month, next year or whenever, situations change and these are usually driven by circumstances which occur. I think anything that potentially risks the network further is always going to be under threat.

Perhaps what happens then is restricted operations, fewer charters run on main line, more pushed onto branch lines, then leading in time to fewer and fewer operations.

I think the big two will be in the know as to where this is already going. WCRC seem to have the monopoly on the West Highland line and it could lead to other scenic lines that effectively get taken over in a formal way specifically for Steam but in a scheduled service?? A kind of hybrid owned heritage railway??

Perhaps thats where any railways like the WR with a mainline connection, with the p-way owned by NR and of interesting length and scenic value perhaps become interesting to a "Heritage" TOC faced with an uncertain future?

I can't see that there would be sufficient income from a charter type operation to maintain a 26 mile line on a commercial basis. Lets face it the main problem that the Wensleydale has is that its been unable to generate enough income to maintain 22 miles of ex freight line on a volunteer basis. On a commercial basis using PW contractors etc the costs would go through the roof. This is of course without the reinstatement of the Redmire to Asygarth section. On my line we need a £1.7 million turnover to support an ex freight branch of 11 miles and are looking to increase that to £2.5 million to support our 3 mile extension. None of this is meant as a criticism of the Wensleydale or its volunteers.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

I can't see that there would be sufficient income from a charter type operation to maintain a 26 mile line on a commercial basis. Lets face it the main problem that the Wensleydale has is that its been unable to generate enough income to maintain 22 miles of ex freight line on a volunteer basis. On a commercial basis using PW contractors etc the costs would go through the roof. This is of course without the reinstatement of the Redmire to Asygarth section. On my line we need a £1.7 million turnover to support an ex freight branch of 11 miles and are looking to increase that to £2.5 million to support our 3 mile extension. None of this is meant as a criticism of the Wensleydale or its volunteers.

This discussion is getting interesting!

paul1609 you are looking at this from a "poor old" privately owned heritage operation point of view - A "heritage" TOC such as WCRC or Mr Hosking's operation is a totally different business model.

They own, run and manage locomotives that presently sojourn onto main Line metals - Take another look - Probably the best know main line operation but classed as a secondary diversionary route is the S&C. The second most well know branch is the Fort William - Mallaig. Both have scheduled & steam services, both are very scenic and both have a strong connection with WCRC locomotives & operations.

So move forward and picture a "secondary" network of the S&C, Waverley Route and a connection beyond Glasgow to Fort William. With a fantastic east-west connection Northallerton to Garsdale on the S&C via the Wensleydale Railway.

Too fantastic to contemplate? I think not. The shape of things to come on the network is evolving very quickly. Don't forget the railways were built for freight, then passengers and now the network is at breaking point with very few paths. HS2 is a result of trying to build fat into the network, not really about speed - thats an added bonus. The use of steam on the mainline has its days numbered. I see in 10 years an east & west coast line that will be barred to steam.

I think NR will though have the vision to understand that steam needs to be offered in something more than a small fix on a heritage line - I think they will work with the two "Heritage" TOC's and anymore that appear to look at paths on scenic lines that don't interfere with the network. I also believe that this "partnership" would help in keeping main secondary routes alive.

The Wensleydale though is an unusual proposition. Its privately operated but the p-way is owned by NR via a lease, so like anything leased, as you don't own it, investment opportunities could be construed as limited?

Someone with deep pockets and the will, could link the line to S&C at Garsdale and yet another optional through route in time!

Yes years off, perhaps NR won't instigate steam bans just yet, but they must be thinking about it in the 20 year picture?

 

[Freeman]

As theTrackMaster said, this thread is becoming very interesting indeed. Someone with VERY deep pockets could reinstate the entire line through to Garsdale and unlike the section to Redmire, could own outright the 18 miles from Aysgarth to Garsdale on the Settle & Carlisle. Forming a 40 mile east-west route through to the East Coast Main Line. The western section is by far the most scenic in fact it's entire length is within the Yorkshire Dales National Park. Potentially one of the finest scenic railways in the UK. This of course was always the WR's long terms aim but they never will achieve the impossible dream, maybe Smith and Co. can do it.

The cost would be huge though with the many bridges and tunnels - would 20 million be enough? I doubt it.

 

[Marmaduke]

Theres a rumour going round that a member of the WRA(T) has appeared and is now buying Aysgarth instead of the one frequently mentioned on this Forum - Anyone heard this?

 

[alexl92]

Theres a rumour going round that a member of the WRA(T) has appeared and is now buying Aysgarth instead of the one frequently mentioned on this Forum - Anyone heard this?

Ooh - it just got even more interesting still!

One thing I would say about WCRC getting involved is that whilst their current operations are fairly comprehensive in terms of owning, maintaining and operating locos, stock and tours, they do not currently have any responsibility for infrastructure of any kind, so that would increase their outgoings quite significantly.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

Interesting indeed - Not heard this one but wouldn't surprise me. At the end of the day, if there is an offer that is significantly more than the "one & only" they have got AND its favourable in terms of possible ongoing input into the site; How could the WR PLC refuse?

At the end of the day surely the WR PLC has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders to get the best possible deal.

Similarly the WRA(T) should support this and encourage, neigh implore the PLC Board to consider any possible, better financial options, or else in the case of future WRA(T) appeals, these should be brought into question by its members, given there is an "easy win" of potentially more monies on the table through the sale of the Aysgarth "jewel".

What surprises me, that there is not more forum comment here on this subject about increasing the potential sales revenue and in turn helping the WR not only survive but give them some breathing space.

Someone said to me recently on the subject that if the deals done, you can't unpick it. Yes probably morally right, HOWEVER to me it doesn't look as though the deal has been done yet and as such why isn't the WR PLC Board looking for the best deal available?

Seems as though there are some on the board who for whatever reason, want to either bury their head in the sand or turn a blind eye to this potential? I think they should at some point give an explanation to the Shareholders and WRA(T) members and account for their actions IF the circumstances do not change and the sale remains at the £400k mark. Its only right and proper.

 

[Marmaduke]

Agreed Trackmaster - Simple really!! Go to open market with Aysgarth spelling out sales criteria wishes; (i.e Retained with rail future etc) - Ask for sealed bids "offers over" - Take top 2 bids and interview potential buyers - Accept highest and best offer - Hopefully this should result in more monies to WR that that currently offered?

 

[AndyY1951]

In my opinion, "the best possible deal" doesn't necessarily mean only the highest financial return. An offer which includes the ability to return the railway to and through Aysgarth would be the best possible deal.

 

[alexl92]

All absolutely right about the ‘best’ deal, but haven’t we already established that those in power are clearly less interested in getting the best and more interested in simply getting all responsibility for the site off their shoulders ASAP? If they really wanted the best deal they’d have put it on the public market at a higher price and negotiated.

 

[TBirdFrank]

Until the deal is done under English property law there is no deal.

close the book - walk away - and set up a new deal on better terms if there is one out there is the right and proper thing to do - morally, financially, for the sake of the members and the railway.

 

[unslet]

As a member and shareholder,I feel that progress is finally being made at the Wensleydale Railway.

Much work is going on.To name a few,the passing loop work started at Leyburn,upgrading of crossing wig-wag lights,shed steelwork being erected at Leeming Bar,track renewals,the superb renovation of Scruton station and much more.

I have to agree with AndyY1951 that the "best deal" for the railway includes the possibility of extending the Railway,not one inch of which has been achieved so far.This is not intended to denigrate the efforts of all at the Railway.Just a statement of fact.

I bought shares in the Railway,not as an investment,but as a form of donation,for which I received a sheet of fancy paper.I am sure many members of this forum have done exactly the same thing at railways up and down the country.The sale of Aysgarth,to me,was a big statement of intent which will prove to be a turning point at the Railway.I hope my optimism is justified,if not,too bad.The Railway was going nowhere as things stood.

 

[Worf]

I fail to see how selling off the family jewels to a low offer can invoke much optimism!

 

[AndyY1951]

I also am a member and shareholder who also bought the shares as a form of donation. Selling Aysgarth, if there is no guaranteed provision to extend to and through it, is certainly a statement of intent - a statement that the organisation has given up any long-term ambition of reconnection to the S&C. In that event I most certainly won't be buying any more shares, and whether I renew my membership when the time comes is undecided.
I await developments..................
Andy

 

[unslet]

Andy,I cannot disagree with anything you have written.

In my opinion,under the previous regime,the Railway had not a snowball's chance in hell of reaching Garsdale.At least the sale of Aysgarth offers some chance of progress being made in this regard.I know I am in a minority here,but that's life.I prefer to be an optimist.

 

[Marmaduke]

So.......Aysgarth Station site has been sold according to my friend - He's just received confirmation from the WR mailing system.

Anybody know to whom and for what value?

This is a new era for the site....Any thoughts on this. I guess only time will tell whether it is good or bad. Of course the real question is how the surplus monies will be spent by the WR PLC....Hopefully wisely and in some form where investment into the business ensures increased sales revenue and profit?

 

[DarloRich]

So.......Aysgarth Station site has been sold according to my friend - He's just received confirmation from the WR mailing system.

Anybody know to whom and for what value?

This is a new era for the site....Any thoughts on this. I guess only time will tell whether it is good or bad. Of course the real question is how the surplus monies will be spent by the WR PLC....Hopefully wisely and in some form where investment into the business ensures increased sales revenue and profit?

It is very easy to find out. Do a search of the Land Registry in a few days. That will tell you who owns the site, how much it was bought for, whether any conditions have been entered into the title etc. You could probably get hold of a copy of the transfer documents. it will cost you a couple of quid. That should stop a lot of the wibble, although somehow I doubt it.

 

[IanD]

Hopefully wisely and in some form where investment into the business ensures increased sales revenue and profit?

Experience would suggest you don't hold your breath waiting for that.

 

[backontrack]

So.......Aysgarth Station site has been sold according to my friend - He's just received confirmation from the WR mailing system.

Anybody know to whom and for what value?

This is a new era for the site....Any thoughts on this. I guess only time will tell whether it is good or bad. Of course the real question is how the surplus monies will be spent by the WR PLC....Hopefully wisely and in some form where investment into the business ensures increased sales revenue and profit?

Let's hope something good can come of this. If we can get a railway from Redmire to Aysgarth...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So.......Aysgarth Station site has been sold according to my friend - He's just received confirmation from the WR mailing system.

Anybody know to whom and for what value?

This is a new era for the site....Any thoughts on this. I guess only time will tell whether it is good or bad. Of course the real question is how the surplus monies will be spent by the WR PLC....Hopefully wisely and in some form where investment into the business ensures increased sales revenue and profit?

Aysgarth Station appears in the February update of the commercial dataset from HM Land Registry. However proprietor remains WRC(P) Ltd, perhaps one of the charges have been amended (two are lenders, one a lease to Wensleydale Railway PLC). I'm not sufficiently interested to invest £3 and buy a copy of the title deeds. Title NYK206724 if anyone fancies a punt. But there can be a delay in purchasers putting their paperwork through.

 

[Freeman]

Aysgarth Station appears in the February update of the commercial dataset from HM Land Registry. [/QUOTE]

The Station was the subject of a £150k mortgage from a supporter who enabled it to be originally acquired some 20 years ago. WRC failed time after time to keep up the repayments, clearly repaying the supporter went to the back of the queue when money was tight (which was always!). Eventually it was rolled over into a new mortgage and paid in instalments but there was a final sum of £25k which was disputed. This held up the sale as it could not go through whilst there was a charge on the property.

This was recently settled allowing the sale to Smith to proceed.

 

[Marmaduke]

Someones just confirmed to me that Mr Smith has indeed purchased the site.

This could be the start of a new era for the WR PLC, assuming some partnership is being created?

There are however some reservations I have which would need to be overcome to "complete the circle" so to speak;
1). Whose going to fund the Aysgarth - Redmire build? I hear WR PLC is looking at quickly getting the track down to Castle Bolton which is good, but rest difficult even after managing to convince land owners to sell, still got to build it.
2). Wheres the money and resource coming from to operate extended services, not to mention build a suitable signalling system on the existing line from Leeming Bar to Redmire, never mind to Aysgarth? The big issue I've always felt with the WR, is the single line working, minimal amount of service and time to wait for a train for return. Would any partnership allow this to happen?
3). If there was some kind of partnership, whats in it for the other party? Whats their pay back? Would it be formal with a partner taking a shareholding in the PLC?

Many questions I know, but at the end of the day, its got to be a viable railway, or else the sale of Aysgarth will have all been in vain and the railway will be in a worse place than before.

I do hope that the WR PLC has a robust business plan going forward? Only time will tell.

 

[alexl92]

Re: the single track issue - does the length of the line and double track in certain stations allow for multiple-train working? I know the NYMR can manage 3 trains on 18 miles of track using a section of double track; what capacity would the WR have if signalling allowed?

 

[Marmaduke]

Re: the single track issue - does the length of the line and double track in certain stations allow for multiple-train working? I know the NYMR can manage 3 trains on 18 miles of track using a section of double track; what capacity would the WR have if signalling allowed?

With loops at Leeming Bar, Constable Burton, Leyburn one would have thought with a proper signalling section interface multiple train would indeed surely be the plan?

I'm sure with all the "positives" being paraded, the WR PLC Board must be considering a scheme? Either way, if you wish to introduce additional trains into the system a absolute block signalling system needs to be introduced?

 

[Marmaduke]

So.....most disconcertingly the "Aysgarth issue" still seems to be a pretty major topic judging by the letter pages of this quarters WR's Relay magazine (Issue 78). For anyone whose not read it, get your hands on a copy and read it thoroughly end to end as it makes for interesting reading.

Read all the letters, but dwell on a Mr Robert Barrett's, because he hits on some very serious points, which a lot of members and share holders alike have long thought.

Mr Barrett suggests that " its very apparent that negotiations between certain members of the plc and the buyer have been ongoing for some time".

When you read other contributions, particularly from the WRA(T) Chair and the WR General Manager, there is in the case of the former; he mentions the sale of Aysgarth and the reasons why, yet the latter's vague reference is made in the last paragraph of "the tough decisions we made last year....".

Clearly whilst the sale of Aysgarth generated a lot of feeling, this isn't about the sale, its about how the sale was conducted. Whilst there is a lot of questions still over whether it should have been sold, that is not the point.

Its the manner in which it was sold that is at the top of peoples minds and this won't go away until the WR PLC & WRA(T) explain it in detail.

The members and shareholders no longer need to know WHY the decision to sell it was made, both sides get that, but the devil is in the detail, because as it stands there are some serious questions to be had to allay the concerns.

Questions therefore that WR PLC & WRA(T) need to consider and answer;

• How did the buyer become aware of the availability of Aysgarth?
• Did the buyer or does the buyer know any members of the present WR PLC Board either through past business or on a personal basis?
• Why was Aysgarth NOT advertised on the open market?
• Why since the sad demise of the sitting tenant did the WR PLC not negotiate an increased price for the site?
• Why did the WR PLC NOT, given it was such a massive decision to sell Aysgarth, go out to ballot the shareholders over its decision to sell?
• When did the WRA(T) Committee consult with its membership to align itself with the WR PLC to operate "in concert" to sell Aysgarth?
• What influence do WR PLC Board members who are members of WRA(T) have over the WRA(T) committee?
• Did the WR PLC know in advance of the sale that in due course some £50k would have to be spent on clearing a past claim for services of a DMU?
• The WR PLC clearly has a Business Plan or wish list for the future, but where is the money coming from to operate this Plan because the sale proceeds from Aysgarth won't extend to infinity?

The WR PLC Board and WRA(T) owe it to the shareholders and members of the WR to address these questions once and for all and then if answered correctly, perhaps this whole sorry saga can be put to bed once and for all, allowing the WR to grow as it was always intended.

In my opinion, the only issue is that I feel the sale proceeds weren't enough. If it had been £500/600k, the issues would by now have gone away and we would have been re-joicing from proffering from a reluctant sale!!

 

[Worf]

I totally agree, however, what is the incentive for them to answer any of the questions. The got the vote they wanted at both AGM's by sweet talking those present with "golden unicorn" promises from the magic money tree that is (was) Aysgarth station. In my opinion, they will continue to dismiss any "rumblings" until the money (if there is any left) finally runs out. I get the feeling that they would rather do this than "come clean". There are too many skeletons in the various cupboards. (Apologies for all the cliches ! )

 

[AndyY1951]

The latest edition of 'Relay' arrived today, with no clarification of the issues but a bunch of letters from very unhappy members.
It also contained my membership renewal form, but I'll not be renewing after being a member for many years. The money will go towards a further donation to the GCR Canal Bridge refurbishment where I have confidence it will be used constructively.