Aysgarth Station - Wensleydale Railway

[Flying Phil]

Would that possibly be D###d S###h then? Would that be so bad? Or will we have to wait and see?

 

[ThetrackMaster]

I think its a case of any one, no matter who it is, if they are a corporate person, you really must be wary as to their intentions. As you say, everyone must wait and see to determine whether an involvement at this level is good or bad.

 

[Worf]

Mentioned also in this article http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...cians___a_train_ride__39_s_a_damp_squib__too/

 

[duffield]

OK so now I know, thanks.

 

[Rover]

Yeah me too. I read the article and for a while I thought it was The Queen!

 

[lyndhurst25]

Exactly what language is that newspaper article written in? I've tried putting it through Google Translate and I'm still none the wiser!

 

[Worf]

Yeah me too. I read the article and for a while I thought it was The Queen!

Well, she has had a few Jubilees in her time!

 

[IanD]

Exactly what language is that newspaper article written in? I've tried putting it through Google Translate and I'm still none the wiser!

And people say the art of journalism is dead!

 

[reddragon]

I am a shareholder at Wensleydale and have chosen not to donate anything more to this bottomless pit of gloom.

I have sent large sums to the WHR extension and latterly GWSR extensions as those railways are well manged & supported, so I see my donations turning into track laid / things happening.

For me to do so at Wensleydale, I need to see a well managed organisation that spends wisely without fantasy management and crayons on old plans. I am sure I am not alone in that view.

Certainly not an easy railway to run / manage, maybe a lost cause, I only wish things were different.

Not sure how this could change.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

I am a shareholder at Wensleydale and have chosen not to donate anything more to this bottomless pit of gloom.

I have sent large sums to the WHR extension and latterly GWSR extensions as those railways are well manged & supported, so I see my donations turning into track laid / things happening.

For me to do so at Wensleydale, I need to see a well managed organisation that spends wisely without fantasy management and crayons on old plans. I am sure I am not alone in that view.

Certainly not an easy railway to run / manage, maybe a lost cause, I only wish things were different.

Not sure how this could change.

Whilst I am not a shareholder, I share your views as do a lot of people on here and many members that I communicate with.

I think MARMADUKE made a number of good observations a page or so back where he basically questioned where & how the donated money had been spent, because I don't see a lot of evidence that its been spent on those appeals it was intended?

I suspect that its been used. to prop up the Operations of the WR, which then gets back to the original line of this thread many months ago; Why was \ is Aysgarth being sold?

At the PLC AGM, it was informed that the Aysgarth sale would pay off the mortgage and the remaining surplus used effectively to support operations.

This of course only presents the clear issue that the WR is loosing money and rather than face up to the facts and somehow address it, the PLC Board takes the flawed view to capitalise probably its most key asset to throw more money at the operational losses.

This is not a sound business decision. The PLC should look at where its losses are, address it, even if it means a shorter operation and build up from there.

What has happened since the Aysgarth announcement is nothing short of disgraceful and the members need to really consider as to what is happening at the WR, because wrong decisions now will be regretted in the future.....if indeed there is a future as we know it for the WR?

Appeal money should be for projects not to bail out the Operations!!

Finally, I know its been said many times, but given the WR needs every last penny, why has the sale price not being reviewed upwards given the vacant tenancy? There's a £100k + that should have been asked for on top of what was initially agreed. Given that the sale has not yet been concluded, the PLC Board......and WRA(T) ON BEHALF OF ITS MEMBERSHIP should have been pushing this, alas I fear not though!!!

 

[Worf]

I didn't realise that you can just change the aim you are fundraising for, but the "Aysgarth ambition" fund raiser appears to have had the "Aysgarth" removed, even though the URL link remains the same! https://www.justgiving.com/campaigns/charity/wensleydale-railway/aysgarth

Incidentally, the charities commission seem to be totally uninterested in what is going on, and never even reply to requests for information. Not really surprising when you remember the millions that "disappeared" from "Kids Co"

 

[Shenandoah]

The last paragraph, in post 281 by Worf, reminds me of the recent WSR saga where it appears both sides of the fight were unable to enlist support from the CC.

 

[Marmaduke]

I didn't realise that you can just change the aim you are fundraising for, but the "Aysgarth ambition" fund raiser appears to have had the "Aysgarth" removed, even though the URL link remains the same! https://www.justgiving.com/campaigns/charity/wensleydale-railway/aysgarth

Incidentally, the charities commission seem to be totally uninterested in what is going on, and never even reply to requests for information. Not really surprising when you remember the millions that "disappeared" from "Kids Co"

I've just followed the above link and I have read quite a few of the messages and there seems an awful lot of people who mention Aysgarth in some shape or form either about getting there or some support.

I just wonder, thinking out aloud, how may would now believe they've donated under false pretences? Is this allowed? Certainly if Id paid into the appeal I would have focused on the original headline of "Aysgarth Ambition" which as Worf suggests, has now vanished. I would if Id been a donator felt "short changed"?

Surely you can't simply start an appeal like this and do as you wish, aren't there rules?

 

[ThetrackMaster]

I've just followed the above link and I have read quite a few of the messages and there seems an awful lot of people who mention Aysgarth in some shape or form either about getting there or some support.

I just wonder, thinking out aloud, how may would now believe they've donated under false pretences? Is this allowed? Certainly if Id paid into the appeal I would have focused on the original headline of "Aysgarth Ambition" which as Worf suggests, has now vanished. I would if Id been a donator felt "short changed"?

Surely you can't simply start an appeal like this and do as you wish, aren't there rules?

Thats an interesting comment Marmaduke - I think you've probably got the attention of a few on here? Yes got to say I also didn't think you could just do what you wished. Presumably there are those who should be monitoring whats happening or else anyone could start an appeal without redress?

I suppose JUST GIVING organisation needs to look within and carry out audits on some of these appeals. I must admit over last couple of years seen a few appeals with various organisations, not just this one, which are questionable on how they are ran.

Again question is, this appeal is at £151k - hows this money been spent?

 

[Marmaduke]

Ive just heard from someone who suggests HNRC has or is removing all his locomotives from the Wensleydale Railway. Has anyone heard this too? I was of the understanding that HNRC supported the WR with locos, so who and where are the operations going to get motive power from if this is the case?

Any thoughts on this, has anyone heard same. Seems as though if true this could be a bit of a problem for loco availability going forward?

 

[Worf]

Ive just heard from someone who suggests HNRC has or is removing all his locomotives from the Wensleydale Railway. Has anyone heard this too? I was of the understanding that HNRC supported the WR with locos, so who and where are the operations going to get motive power from if this is the case?

Any thoughts on this, has anyone heard same. Seems as though if true this could be a bit of a problem for loco availability going forward?

Not heard this, but if true, it sounds rather ominous.

 

[IanD]

Ive just heard from someone who suggests HNRC has or is removing all his locomotives from the Wensleydale Railway. Has anyone heard this too? I was of the understanding that HNRC supported the WR with locos, so who and where are the operations going to get motive power from if this is the case?

Any thoughts on this, has anyone heard same. Seems as though if true this could be a bit of a problem for loco availability going forward?

HNRC?

 

[matt]

HNRC = Harry Needle Railroad Company

 

[alexl92]

I suppose if the WR were starting a ‘partnership’ of sorts with the owner of a large TOC which owned/operated a large heritage diesel fleet, then HNRC may not wish to continue their involvement. I haven’t heard that elsewhere though.

 

[Freeman]

Why would Smith want to buy Aysgarth Station? The story going around is that it's a red herring to pretend it's to be a private hobby railway, more likely a foot in the door prior to controlling the entire Wensleydale Railway. That could be a good thing for the railway but would any volunteers want to work free for a commercial organisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would Smith want to buy Aysgarth Station? The story going around is that it's a red herring to pretend it's to be a private hobby railway, more likely a foot in the door prior to controlling the entire Wensleydale Railway. That could be a good thing for the railway but would any volunteers want to work free for a commercial organisation.

I reckon you'd have little trouble getting traincrew provided he's reasonable. Enough people want to play trains.

 

[Marmaduke]

Why would Smith want to buy Aysgarth Station? The story going around is that it's a red herring to pretend it's to be a private hobby railway, more likely a foot in the door prior to controlling the entire Wensleydale Railway. That could be a good thing for the railway but would any volunteers want to work free for a commercial organisation.

I think you are on the "right track" with this but the wider angle is this and you can read into it as you wish.

Network Rail would love in an ideal world to rid the network of steam, because the risk to timings, paths and damage to the P-Way is too great to accept in a modern railway.

Why did NR conduct a trial one night a few months ago with Tornado between York & Newcastle and back to see if it could sustain a speed of 95mph? Simply because in the wider scheme of things, perhaps only new builds or locomotives licensed by NR to go at 95mph will be allowed on the track in the future.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that perhaps only Tornado presently is capable of this and at best the rest of the main line steam fleet is only registered for 75mph running.

So going forward imagine what this would mean to some A Level "TOC's" whose primary business is provision of motive power for steam charters locos along with running heritage diesels?

They possibly at some time in the future will be faced with a massive dilemma with their business model.

Seemingly they may be faced with only two options; 1). You get out of the business - not easy if you have heavily invested!! 2). You spot hire to heritage railways - not good if a former TOC because there's too many doing this at bargain rates.

If you are really clever though there is a third option.

3). If you can't run your locomotives on the mainline, buy your own line. Lines like WR seem ripe for picking? No funds, no steam locos, nice scenery west end, potential to extend?

I think the organisation \ person who seems to be mentioned in this section of the forum would appear to fit the bill completely and the motive for purchasing Aysgarth is part of the overall master plan?

How many though on the WR PLC Board have thought of this.....or are they in on it too, but haven't yet confided in the membership as to their aspirations?

Time will tell and as FREEMAN suggests, a commercial operation will no longer be a haunt for volunteers.

 

[mushroomchow]

I am a shareholder at Wensleydale and have chosen not to donate anything more to this bottomless pit of gloom.

I have sent large sums to the WHR extension and latterly GWSR extensions as those railways are well manged & supported, so I see my donations turning into track laid / things happening.

You seem a generous fella - don't suppose you could lend us £9.5 million for a railway museum in Leicester could you?

 

[Freeman]

I
Seemingly they may be faced with only two options; 1). You get out of the business - not easy if you have heavily invested!! 2). You spot hire to heritage railways - not good if a former TOC because there's too many doing this at bargain rates.

If you are really clever though there is a third option.
3). If you can't run your locomotives on the mainline, buy your own line. Lines like WR seem ripe for picking? No funds, no steam locos, nice scenery west end, potential to extend?

I think the organisation \ person who seems to be mentioned in this section of the forum would appear to fit the bill completely and the motive for purchasing Aysgarth is part of the overall master plan?

How many though on the WR PLC Board have thought of this.....or are they in on it too, but haven't yet confided in the membership as to their aspirations?

Time will tell and as FREEMAN suggests, a commercial operation will no longer be a haunt for volunteers.

They are in on it too, I can assure you...

 

[mushroomchow]

Why did NR conduct a trial one night a few months ago with Tornado between York & Newcastle and back to see if it could sustain a speed of 95mph? Simply because in the wider scheme of things, perhaps only new builds or locomotives licensed by NR to go at 95mph will be allowed on the track in the future.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that perhaps only Tornado presently is capable of this and at best the rest of the main line steam fleet is only registered for 75mph running.

Bittern managed 90mph just fine - I imagine that would be sufficient for the modern railway? 95mph seems a little superfluous, especially as even now most steam specials don't tend to operate up and down the fastest stretches of track on a regular basis.

There only really needs to be a small fleet of locomotives capable of 90mph to keep West and East Coast steam going. Tornado is obviously going to head that roster, but the incoming P2 will no doubt be aimed at the same market (though it still baffles me that there seem to be two rival projects running simultaneously!) Any other locomotives like Bittern which get dispensation are only going to help matters.

75mph is plenty in reality - it's just following the average freight path timings, which aren't likely to increase for as long as 66s remain the backbone of the rail freight market. The challenge will be finding paths in an increasingly congested network, and ensuring the reliability of locomotives is as high as possible to avoid any disruption to the wider network, which will only become more acute as it becomes busier.

Now if we could just work on revoking that quite stupid speed restriction scale based on wheel diameter, which is far too broad-brush in its application, that'd be great.

...

What? Wensleydale? Oh right... It's a mess. The Aysgarth deal does strike me as a "foot in the door" job - but they need to seriously consider reducing overheads and developing a profitable "core" before building the line outwards again in a sustainable manner - and regular steam will be key to that. That article posted above sums it up - the whole operation seems incredibly haphazard and shoddily-run. No offence to those volunteers working there: it's more a fault with the board than your own, as the whole place needs some direction.

 

[Marmaduke]

They are in on it too, I can assure you...

I detect we are onto something here - Does anyone else have a view?

If this is so, it would be the biggest "sell out" to members and volunteers who have gave their time, effort and money to support this railway. I have thought for a while that the seemingly "innocent" way in which it just so happened this mystery buyer appeared out of the blue to ask to buy Aysgarth didn't quite ring true.

I know a lot of people share this view.

Then thinking about it a couple of facts to consider for the blinkered ones out there;
1). One valuation for Aysgarth, not multiple to get the best price for the Shareholder and since vacant tenancy NO interest in getting an increased price
2). WR PLC and WRA(T) common members to both organisations - Conflict of interest anybody?

Oh dear and the list goes on....

 

[Marmaduke]

Bittern managed 90mph just fine - I imagine that would be sufficient for the modern railway? 95mph seems a little superfluous, especially as even now most steam specials don't tend to operate up and down the fastest stretches of track on a regular basis.

There only really needs to be a small fleet of locomotives capable of 90mph to keep West and East Coast steam going. Tornado is obviously going to head that roster, but the incoming P2 will no doubt be aimed at the same market (though it still baffles me that there seem to be two rival projects running simultaneously!) Any other locomotives like Bittern which get dispensation are only going to help matters.

75mph is plenty in reality - it's just following the average freight path timings, which aren't likely to increase for as long as 66s remain the backbone of the rail freight market. The challenge will be finding paths in an increasingly congested network, and ensuring the reliability of locomotives is as high as possible to avoid any disruption to the wider network, which will only become more acute as it becomes busier.

Now if we could just work on revoking that quite stupid speed restriction scale based on wheel diameter, which is far too broad-brush in its application, that'd be great.

...

What? Wensleydale? Oh right... It's a mess. The Aysgarth deal does strike me as a "foot in the door" job - but they need to seriously consider reducing overheads and developing a profitable "core" before building the line outwards again in a sustainable manner - and regular steam will be key to that. That article posted above sums it up - the whole operation seems incredibly haphazard and shoddily-run. No offence to those volunteers working there: it's more a fault with the board than your own, as the whole place needs some direction.

Good points Mushroomchow, but its a bit more than that as regards NR.

When I worked in the rail sector, there aint too many managers or people in authority who like steam locos appearing on their network.

The argument was; Steam has a higher percentage risk of failure; The timings are seriously affected on paths due to support requirements at strategic locations for watering and coaling; Steam locomotives aside from the ones mentioned cannot sustain line speed requirements; Steam locomotives do in all honesty due to axle loadings and the hammering effect of motion, damage p-way.

I love steam engines, but get why people in authority hold such a view.

By the way Tornado and the P2 are not rival projects. Tornado was delivered and the P2 is being built by the same organisation who built, owns and operates Tornado.

 

[mushroomchow]

Sorry to keep dipping my toe into something I don't profess to fully understand - but presuming it is this D___ S____ fellow (and let's not beat around the bush now, since he's already been named in press sources), am I naïve for thinking that's a good thing long-term for the railway? He clearly runs a tight ship at Carnforth, and his involvement in any form with the railway could lead to items from the MPD stretching their legs on the WR - which I imagine would be beneficial for both parties, especially the steam-starved Wensleydale, which by the sounds of it relies on a single unreliable loco in Joem for all of its advertised services and regularly leaves punters disappointed - which, of course, is terrible for business.

This isn't to say there's any guarantee he'll end up with any operational interest in the WR itself, but worst-case scenario, a major TOC player owns an ex-station instead of a developer, and if it does go ahead the WR becomes a WCRC offshoot with the commercial backing and public exposure needed to realise its ambitions. I can understand the fears of volunteers being undermined, and those with shares and who are aggrieved at misleading charity drives deserve some sort of reimbursement. But quite simply I think it's either find new owners or watch your railway die, and you could do far, far worse.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

Sorry to keep dipping my toe into something I don't profess to fully understand - but presuming it is this D___ S____ fellow (and let's not beat around the bush now, since he's already been named in press sources), am I naïve for thinking that's a good thing long-term for the railway? He clearly runs a tight ship at Carnforth, and his involvement in any form with the railway could lead to items from the MPD stretching their legs on the WR - which I imagine would be beneficial for both parties, especially the steam-starved Wensleydale, which by the sounds of it relies on a single unreliable loco in Joem for all of its advertised services and regularly leaves punters disappointed - which, of course, is terrible for business.

This isn't to say there's any guarantee he'll end up with any operational interest in the WR itself, but worst-case scenario, a major TOC player owns an ex-station instead of a developer, and if it does go ahead the WR becomes a WCRC offshoot with the commercial backing and public exposure needed to realise its ambitions. I can understand the fears of volunteers being undermined, and those with shares and who are aggrieved at misleading charity drives deserve some sort of reimbursement. But quite simply I think it's either find new owners or watch your railway die, and you could do far, far worse.

Clear thinking perhaps on many counts, however it doesn't matter who it is or whatever input they do, its the manner in which the WR PLC Board, ably supported by WRA(T) have conducted themselves and seemingly continue to conduct themselves that vexes members \ volunteers.

It all "smoke & mirror" stuff. A lot of people have consistently injected cash into the WR through many many appeals and sponsorship and if that just simply vaporises and goes to someone to take it over for commercial operations, that takes a bit to swallow.

Aysgarth was emotionally a big decision to sell by the PLC (well some perhaps, because from what I listened to, there was no more emotion attached to selling Aysgarth as it would be selling your garden shed!!)

We were told the WR needed to sell Aysgarth to raise vital funds to allow the railway to survive. What next for the erstwhile PLC Board? Lets sell 51% of the shareholding to someone in exchange for more brass.

What I am getting to, is the Board needs to stop pontificating and communicate to the members \ volunteers their 5 year intentions, instead of apparently grinding along with no clear sense of direction.

If and its a small if, the WR PLC Board considered this approach, then perhaps two things would happen; A) The membership and volunteers alike would see, perhaps endorse and engage with, going forward to achieve the forward plan and B) If after doing this, they tried and it failed and the only hope was engaging with an outside organisation to survive, then the members and volunteers would probably accept the position more easily?

We've had a few years now of apparently misguided adventures by the WR PLC Board and barring a few new additions of directors within the last year, we've still essentially got the same team that has "ping-ponged" the venture along from one "good" idea to the next. Does the board need an overhaul - New fresh dynamic Business & Rail professionals with connections? Mr Davies has connections, so thats one - Any more?

 

[Freeman]

By the way Tornado and the P2 are not rival projects. Tornado was delivered and the P2 is being built by the same organisation who built, owns and operates Tornado.

I think he meant that there are two "rival" P2 Locomotives being built.