Bakerloo Line Refurb?

[Russel]

The line north of Queens Park is called the Buckaroo for a reason!

The line beyond Queens Park always puts a smile on my face, such a contrast between the 72 stock and the Pendolinos that fly past them a few feet away at 100+ MPH.

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder if Khan and TfL are counting on a Labour Government to give them a long term deal? The Bakerloo Line Upgrade is on the cards;

 

[yorksrob]

If only we could have kept our lovely slammers for fifty six + years (sigh).

 

[Snow1964]

Seriously, though, there was the small matter of a global pandemic during the 5-year exemption period, which might give TfL an excuse for not completing the modifications in time?

But a 2 year pandemic doesn't justify extra 5 years

The legislation was 2010, didn't do it within 9 years, wanted extra 5 years and now another 5 years.
Does it really take 19 years to alter some handrails and make announcements compliant ? The floor slopes maybe, but the extra 5 years extension request for others is taking the mick.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

But a 2 year pandemic doesn't justify extra 5 years

The legislation was 2010, didn't do it within 9 years, wanted extra 5 years and now another 5 years.
Does it really take 19 years to alter some handrails and make announcements compliant ? The floor slopes maybe, but the extra 5 years extension request for others is taking the mick.

Fair point.
They managed well enough in getting announcements about wearing masks on every train (and still had them long after they were no longer mandatory)

 

[Blindtraveler]

Covid is simply not a valid excuse anymore

 

[brad465]

I confess I tend to avoid the Bakerloo line as much as I can, with the old stock and general poor feeling of the line the main reasons. However sometimes other factors also influence this: if I'm travelling with a bike then I have to use the Circle Line, but I find that for someone fairly mobile and knowing where they're going, the Elizabeth Line and Northern line can be quicker going from Paddington-Charing X, changing at Tottenham Court Rd. I accept not everyone can do this nor would want to.

 

[bramling]

But a 2 year pandemic doesn't justify extra 5 years

The legislation was 2010, didn't do it within 9 years, wanted extra 5 years and now another 5 years.
Does it really take 19 years to alter some handrails and make announcements compliant ? The floor slopes maybe, but the extra 5 years extension request for others is taking the mick.

Agree. This shows that TFL may well be very good at making political statements (for example naming Overground lines in a blatantly political way), but aren’t so good at what they are actually meant to be doing which is delivering a transport service.

There is no excuse for this having dragged on for so long. Poor management, quite simply.

 

[renegademaster]

If ORR grant a further extension, WCRC will be kicking up a big fuss

 

[CarrotPie]

If ORR grant a further extension, WCRC will be kicking up a big fuss

Though one could argue the Bakerloo is more important to communities than WCRC...

 

[Nym]

But has had a lot more time to make their stock compliant and a much bigger budget

 

[trebor79]

But has had a lot more time to make their stock compliant and a much bigger budget

People can't stick their heads out of the windows or open the doors whilst the train is moving on the Bakerloo though. And the doors are interlocked such that the train will not start/will stop if a door does open.
Bit different to WCRC.

 

[birchesgreen]

Little anecdote from the Bakerloo today, i overheard a couple of youths (in their hoodies and expensive trainers, you know the youth that they have these days) talking on a train earlier today. One said that the trains were old but "posh" presumably because of the transverse seating. Means nothing but it amused me.

 

[Nym]

People can't stick their heads out of the windows or open the doors whilst the train is moving on the Bakerloo though. And the doors are interlocked such that the train will not start/will stop if a door does open.
Bit different to WCRC.

Point of clarity,
Although specifically mentioned with the '/' symbol.

The door interlocks on 1972TS do not apply the brakes and will not directly apply the brake.

One should also note there there is no excuse for this taking 14 years so far for these trains to be made compliant, or a realistic exemption set be applied for.

For the most part, in no particular order the work that was needed for RVAR 2010.

• Wheelchair Bays - The design has been at the preliminary stage for at least 9 years, with viable planning for a prototype and fleet planning for at least 7 years.
• Passenger Information System - There have been design(s) for at least 10 years, three sets of design have been done to the concept level, and one was done to at least the pre-preliminary level with a prelim design done for the EKE Electronics system, essentially a 1992TS "lite" system, around 6 years ago.
• Grab Rails and Applicable Exceptions - Known 10 years ago.
• Seat Height Exception - Known to be permanent 10 years ago.

I know there's other issues like step free access that at the time was handled by staff attendance and manual ramps, but we all know where TfL went with "Staff" a while back.

There is literally, not figuratively, literally, no excuse, other than human (management) issues, for this taking so long.

 

[notverydeep]

One should also note there there is no excuse for this taking 14 years so far for these trains to be made compliant, or a realistic exemption set be applied for.

Many of the delays to rolling stock improvement projects that have manifested themselves over the last several years, stem at least in part from the transfer of the network of London's strategic roads (Trunk Roads - basically the 'red routes') from the Highways Agency to TfL. With these 380 kilometres of roads came a huge maintenance liability, but essentially none of the corresponding maintenance funding and so this has had to come from other sources. This in turn clearly impacts investment prioritisation...

 

[class397tpe]

Many of the delays to rolling stock improvement projects that have manifested themselves over the last several years, stem at least in part from the transfer of the network of London's strategic roads (Trunk Roads - basically the 'red routes') from the Highways Agency to TfL. With these 380 kilometres of roads came a huge maintenance liability, but essentially none of the corresponding maintenance funding and so this has had to come from other sources. This in turn clearly impacts investment prioritisation...

The roads didn’t get a good deal either, basically zero improvements over the past 24 years. Some very obvious pinch points that could be cheaply improved, and antiquated and dangerous junction layouts, left untouched.

 

[TrenHotel]

I wonder if Khan and TfL are counting on a Labour Government to give them a long term deal? The Bakerloo Line Upgrade is on the cards;

A lobbying group of councils has been pushing for the upgrade and the Lewisham/Hayes extension in one go:

https://centrallondonforward.gov.uk...P_001F_Bakerloo-Extension-Revised_Digital.pdf

The Bakerloo Line Upgrade and Extension is a
London-wide strategic imperative. As this document
has outlined, the existing line plays a significant role
in supporting London, and more broadly, communities
nationally. The Bakerloo Line Upgrade and Extension
will unlock opportunity to:

• Underpin the London and UK economy
• Enable London’s Culture, Tourism and Knowledge
Corridor
• Achieve Net Zero
• Future Proof Transport
• Accelerate Place Led Growth
• Create Economic Resilience

Without investment in the Upgrade, there is a serious
risk of failure which will impact London and the UK’s
competitiveness. But this is not just about transport,
the Extension brings huge opportunity to unlock and
accelerate ambitious growth plans to bring benefits
to residents and businesses across London, and
support a net zero economy.

This report therefore arrives at a pivotal moment in
time – an opportunity to invest in the Bakerloo Line
Upgrade and Extension to future proof London.
The scale of this major infrastructure project means
there is a long-lead in time to realise the full breadth
of social, economic and environmental benefits
outlined in this report.

However, this should not mean that decisions and
commitments cannot occur now. UK Government,
Transport for London and the boroughs must continue
to work together in the short term to bring certainty
and deliver commitments on the future direction of
the projec

 

[yorkie]

Just a general reminder this is a thread to discuss updates relating to Bakerloo Line refurbishment

Ant discussion of anything else, such as roads or a possible extension, should be posted in the relevant forum section for that topic (i.e, in those cases, Other Transport and Speculative Discussion, respectively)

Many thanks

 

[Busman]

Are the 1972 Stock currently having a further refurbishment? I've seen some stock on the morning services having a new handrail either side of the door and all the rails seem relatively fresh on the trains I've seen and new seats?

Even that is a better refurb than the Central line.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened for @Edvid to post an update.

 

[Edvid]

Some updates from recent Programmes & Investment Committee papers.

3 October papers (see page 154)

Expected outputs to March 2027
[...]
Bakerloo Line RVAR
50% wheelchair bays and grab poles by March 2025 and 100% by March 2027. PIS planned on 50% trains by then.

11 December papers (see page 43)

7.10.3 Bakerloo and Central lines: On the Bakerloo line, wheelchair bays have been fitted on 15 trains. The return-to-service date [for the first RVAR-compliant (if exemptions agreed) train] has moved from November to the end of December 2024 due to the need to move the additional assurance testing. [...]

I don't know how long these things usually take, but it's been more than 8 months since the consultation ended and a decision on TfL's exemption requests is still pending.

 

[Nym]

In 2017, there was a plan to have all this done by the end of 2021, but... yet, here we are.

 

[thomalex]

By 2027. Goodness me

I’m not sure know exactly needs to resign but someone should be

 

[Russel]

By 2027. Goodness me

By then, I'd be surprised in an order for replacement stock hadn't been placed and under construction, so it makes me wonder why they pouring money into the 72 stock for the few years they have left.

 

[Dstock7080]

By then, I'd be surprised in an order for replacement stock hadn't been placed and under construction, so it makes me wonder why they pouring money into the 72 stock for the few years they have left.

see post #11

 

[Goldfish62]

By then, I'd be surprised in an order for replacement stock hadn't been placed and under construction, so it makes me wonder why they pouring money into the 72 stock for the few years they have left.

Simply because an order for replacement hasn't been placed. TfL needs external Capital funding from the government for that and it has yet to be forthcoming.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't know how long these things usually take, but it's been more than 8 months since the consultation ended and a decision on TfL's exemption requests is still pending.

It's a request, doesn't mean it will automatically be granted.

There could be a number of savvy groups that have pointed out they have had about 15 years to make changes, and it's only cost cutting not to do so, rather than technically impossible.

If TfL are trying to get too many years (because they don't know when replacement trains might arrive) then it makes it harder to grant an exemption due to longer period covered.

 

[stuu]

By 2027. Goodness me

I’m not sure know exactly needs to resign but someone should be

How about the previous government ministers who got into stupid arguments with the Mayor over the TfL budget? Or the idiot who agreed to no operational support from the government?

 

[boiledbeans2]

First completed refurb was out on Monday

 

[kacper]

First completed refurb was out on Monday

Would you know the carriage numbers?