Balfour Beatty Rail wins electrification contract

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is Warrinngton - Wigan - Preston 125mph for non-tilt stock?

So will the 350s be able to hit their proposed new speed of 110mph? How much else of the WCML north could they run at 110 for? Might knock some time off current journeys, especially running via Wigan.

As it stands at the moment, 125 tilt/110 non-tilt stops at Acton Grange Jn south of Warrington and does not resume until a mile or so north of Wigan.
Not sure why, maybe junctions etc.

So the line speed (for all trains) comes down to 90 through Warrington, 80 at Dallam and Winwick, 90 at Golborne and then 110 on towards Wigan which is back to 80.

Not very good for a tilting railway. I don't know if there are improvements coming (eg Winwick Jn has just been replaced). You would have thought that tilt speeds of 100 would be possible at all these places. Otherwise why have tilt?

So 110mph 350s, as it stands, won't suffer through lack of tilt on this bit.

 

[Minstral25]

Delivery of the Desiro City stock for Thameslink puzzles me. The much reviled Bombardier took 25 months from order to passenger service for the Cl 379 which was not a simple follow on order. The 172s which were a substantial redesign of the 170 (or 171) took 31 months from order to passenger service. Why then is the delivery of Desiro City in 37 months from today such a problem? Especially now the signalling will not require lots of new on board equipment for the initial delivery.

A question not just the people of the North-West want to know but also the commuters of the South-east when they will be able to breathe out on a train.

Seems really strange when there is a shortage of rolling stock everywhere that these are being delayed to 2015 before first delivery.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will extensive work be required over Chat Moss to ensure good foundations for the OHLE Masts?

Will Ordsall Lane Jn to Euxton Jn & Blackpool North to Preston be closed in separate phases or will the entire line close until electrification is complete?

If this is the case, will we see a Rail Replacement Bus from Manchester to Preston & Blackpool North?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will Ordsall Lane Jn to Euxton Jn & Blackpool North to Preston be closed in separate phases or will the entire line close until electrification is complete?

Electrification itself (ie putting up masts and wires) doesn't generally require block closures, it is usually the structures such as tunnels and bridges that require additional clearance that cause the time consuming problems. Once that's done putting up the wires is something that can be done with overnight possessions. I wouldn't expect any long closures outside normal weekend timescales.

The high profile problems come when they try and remodel a railway that is already electrified - such as at Rugby a couple of Christmases ago...

 

[Whistler40145]

Farnworth & Chorley Tunnels are likely to require the trackbed lowered. I am not sure if several road bridges between Blackpool North & Preston will have sufficient clearances for OHLE & Careleton Crossing?

Also, is the trackbed over Chat Moss solid enough for erection of OHLE Masts?

 

[ole man]

Farnworth & Chorley Tunnels are likely to require the trackbed lowered. I am not sure if several road bridges between Blackpool North & Preston will have sufficient clearances for OHLE & Careleton Crossing?

Also, is the trackbed over Chat Moss solid enough for erection of OHLE Masts?

Floating Foundations, this part of the job carries the risk everybody is worried about

 

[Whistler40145]

Were floating foundations used in the Sandbach area with the subsidence caused by Salt Mining?

 

[ole man]

Yes they were, although recently that problem seems to have become less of a problem, you could also adjust the heights of the OLE structures themselves

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Passing Parkside Junction this morning I noticed what looks like a contractors compound being set up immediately south and east of the M6 bridge; is this Balfour Beatty starting work?

 

[lancastrian]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...riangle-electrification-contract-awarded.html

Balfour Beatty Rail announced on November 11 that it had been awarded a contract by Network Rail to undertake electrification and minor signalling works under Phase 1 of the Northwest Triangle scheme to electrify routes around Liverpool and Manchester.

Due for completion by December 2013, Phase 1 covers the installation of 25 kV 50 Hz overhead electrification on 30 km of double track between Castlefield Junction in Manchester and Newton-le-Willows Junction, as well as the curve onto the West Coast Main Line at Lowton Junction.

Phase 2 of the programme will involve wiring the remaining 21 km of double track between Earlsfield and Bootle Branch Junction, completing electrification between Manchester and Liverpool Lime Street. This is due to be energised by December 2014*.

Phases 3 and 4 will see the remaining sections from Huyton to Wigan, Ordsall Lane Junction to Euxton Junction via Bolton, and finally Preston to Blackpool North electrified by December 2016.

*So 2014 is still the expected year for Manchester-Liverpool electrification to be complete, earlier than anything will be released from Thameslink, never mind delivering fully refurbished stock before the wires are ready, as the previous government proposed.

While they are still electrifing these North West Lines, lets hope that in the Government will increase their investment in the North of England, and not stop with these lines.

The need to carry on and electrify the following lines:

• Oxenholme to Windermere
• Lancaster & Hest Bank to Morecambe
• Carnforth to Barrow
• Manchester Victoria & Guide Bridge to York via Huddersfield & Leeds
• Manchester Victoria & Preston to Leeds via Bradford
• Rose Grove to Colne, with redoubling and rebuilding through to Skipton
• Northallerton to Middlesborough & Newcastle via Stockton & Sunderland
• York to Scarborough
• Leeds to Hull
• Doncaster to Gilberdyke, via Goole

I also feel that there may be other infill lines in the North which it would be very benefical to include.

 

[Blindtraveler]

i wonder if the delay to the Thameslink stock is being caused by the potential order which has not yet been0officially placed but wil shortly have to be for the final run of 350s for LM0with the high spec add ons for Manchester Scotland?

It wil certainly ce good to have less local traffic clogging these runs up and the 110 MPH running wil be good too. I just hope that the upgraded spec internally is to a good enough qualitty for this length of trip i.e a better seat than has ever been put into a deziro before, enough plugs and wifi?

 

[sprinterguy]

The need to carry on and electrify the following lines:
Manchester Victoria & Guide Bridge to York via Huddersfield & Leeds

"Manchester to Leeds" electrification has been announced earlier today, although it is not yet clear as to exactly what scope it will extend. I would hope that as well as the core Manchester - Leeds - York stretch it would also include:

Leeds to Hull
Doncaster to Gilberdyke, via Goole

Plus, as you also mention in your list, Northallerton to Middlesborough.

[*]Northallerton to Middlesborough & Newcastle via Stockton & Sunderland

It's highly unlikely that the Durham Coast route will ever be electrified north of Thornaby/Middlesborough, as the Tyne & Wear Metro extension gets in the way between Sunderland and Pelaw

[*]York to Scarborough

I think that for the sake of one train an hour, it is likely that the Scarborough branch will remain unelectrified and be added onto the York - Blackpool service instead.

As for the other routes you have listed, I think that in the case of some of them there would be a greater benefit to be derived from a North West electrification Phase 2 that would cover Buxton, Southport, Kirkby, Marple & New Mills, plus as you list:

[*]Oxenholme to Windermere
[*]Carnforth to Barrow

 

[HSTEd]

"Manchester to Leeds" electrification has been announced earlier today, although it is not yet clear as to exactly what scope it will extend. I would hope that as well as the core Manchester - Leeds - York stretch it would also include:

Plus, as you also mention in your list, Northallerton to Middlesborough.

It's highly unlikely that the Durham Coast route will ever be electrified north of Thornaby/Middlesborough, as the Tyne & Wear Metro extension gets in the way between Sunderland and Pelaw

Well you never know, when the Tyne and Wear Stock comes up for replacement we could see dual voltage units ordered. One would hope anyway.

 

[lancastrian]

"Manchester to Leeds" electrification has been announced earlier today, although it is not yet clear as to exactly what scope it will extend. I would hope that as well as the core Manchester - Leeds - York stretch it would also include:

Plus, as you also mention in your list, Northallerton to Middlesborough.

It's highly unlikely that the Durham Coast route will ever be electrified north of Thornaby/Middlesborough, as the Tyne & Wear Metro extension gets in the way between Sunderland and Pelaw

I think that for the sake of one train an hour, it is likely that the Scarborough branch will remain unelectrified and be added onto the York - Blackpool service instead.

As for the other routes you have listed, I think that in the case of some of them there would be a greater benefit to be derived from a North West electrification Phase 2 that would cover Buxton, Southport, Kirkby, Marple & New Mills, plus as you list:

Yes I know that the Manchester to Leeds electrification was announced today, but know 'DaFT' thats all they will do. If it is an extension on from Manchester Victoria through to Leeds only, then they will as usual missed a really good oppotunity to do a decent well planned job.

If the route is as I have suggested, then if the fail to electrify the link from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, an don't continue through Leeds to York how on earth can they say that they are electrifing the Trans Pennine route. Stopping at Leeds will mean that we will have an electrified service Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds service, but no further even though the route to Newcastle is electrified from Coulton Junction all the way through to Newcastle.

On top of that to maintain the current full Trans Pennine service they will have to do all the above along with the lines:

• Northallerton to Middlesborough
• Leeds to Hull
• Doncaster to Gilberdyke

This will mean that we will have a decent electric Trans Pennine service.

But knowing 'DaFT' as I said they will proberbly just do the Manchester to Leeds route and no more.

If that is so, then all I can say is; "What a pile of pilliocks".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But knowing 'DaFT' as I said they will proberbly just do the Manchester to Leeds route and no more.

If that is so, then all I can say is; "What a pile of pilliocks".

Give them time.
Politics means that Osborne was addressing the restive business communities in Manchester and Leeds (Chambers of Commerce etc, councillors, voters etc), not railway folk.
Little things like where the wires will actually begin and end are of no matter to the Chancellor. No votes in uttering the magic words "Colton Junction".
Wait till DfT itself, in collaboration with NR, publish the details.
The important thing is the funding allocated for the scheme of £290m.
I expect NR can do the lot for that.

And they are not all idiots.

 

[Jonny]

It's not the last in real terms. Preston-Blackpool will be done at the same time as Manchester-Bolton-Preston but as Preston-Blackpool is shorter it should be completed first. Preston-Blackpool electrification serves no purpose by itself unless Blackpool-London trains are guaranteed and it is guaranteed that either electric trains will be ordered or pantograph vehicles will be ordered for Voyagers.

Sorry if I'm going seriously off-topic here, but lengthening the 4-car voyagers might cause some bay platform-related problems (apparently some "bays" at Reading, and from what I've seen of platforms 10/11 at Newcastle, there as well - 5 cars would foul the signalling overlaps and block the whole section up).

 

[HSTEd]

Will Blackpool South be thrown in with Blackpool North? Seems a shame to leave such a piece of single track line on its own like that.

 

[Whistler40145]

Should Salford Crescent to Wigan & Bolton to Wigan be included?

Both routes would be useful diversion routes if Preston to Manchester via Bolton & Wigan to Manchester via Eccles happened to be shut for engineering works.

 

[mbonwick]

• Lancaster & Hest Bank to Morecambe
• Carnforth to Barrow

I really don't think the service levels to Morecambe or passenger levels warrant electrification.

Same thing with the Furness line - plus the visual pollution it would create.

 

[sprinterguy]

Will Blackpool South be thrown in with Blackpool North? Seems a shame to leave such a piece of single track line on its own like that.

The trains on the Blackpool South branch come from Colne though, which is unlikely to be electrified at any point in the next couple of decades, if ever. Plus the service is only hourly.

Medium term, I think that the Blackpool South branch would be a good candidate for conversion to light-rail use, either using tram-trains on the current service from Colne tied in with the current Blackpool tramway, or simply turning the Blackpool South branch into an extension of the Blackpool tramway as far as Kirkham and diverting the Colne service to Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't think the service levels to Morecambe or passenger levels warrant electrification.

Same thing with the Furness line - plus the visual pollution it would create.

I agree with you about Morecambe but I think that it would be beneficial to electrify to Barrow. While the service is only hourly, the service runs from Manchester and as such the entirety of the services' journey as far as Carnforth will be under the wires within five years, with the section that traverses the WCML already electrified, which is a considerable proportion of the total journey length. It'd make sense for electric trains to be used on this service instead of running diesels under the wires all the way from Manchester to Carnforth. Plus, the service has the ability to fill a 3-car 185, so a three or four car EMU wouldn't be an excessive amount of passenger capacity on some trains.

 

[tbtc]

The trains on the Blackpool South branch come from Colne though, which is unlikely to be electrified at any point in the next couple of decades, if ever. Plus the service is only hourly.
...

I think that it would be beneficial to electrify to Barrow. While the service is only hourly, the service runs from Manchester and as such the entirety of the services' journey as far as Carnforth will be under the wires within five years, with the section that traverses the WCML already electrified, which is a considerable proportion of the total journey length. It'd make sense for electric trains to be used on this service instead of running diesels under the wires all the way from Manchester to Carnforth. Plus, the service has the ability to fill a 3-car 185, so a three or four car EMU wouldn't be an excessive amount of passenger capacity on some trains.

I agree with you on Blackpool North having a poor case for electrification (as things stand), but surely the same could be said of Barrow? The TPE service is only every couple of hours - to convert all DMUs on the Barrow line to EMU (even then, only hourly combined) you'd need to convert the whole Carnforth - Barrow - Whitehaven - Carlisle line (as the Northern units are doing Lancaster - Carlisle via the coast), or chop the direct service from Lancaster (etc) to Workington/Whitehaven etc.

I don't think either of those are realistic, which is why I think that the Barrow line will probably stick to an hourly DMU service from Lancaster (with only a token "through" service to/from Manchester, like Windermere currently gets).

As for the sudden fascination with electrifying routes with no/little passenger service (as "diversionary" routes), I like the idea in principle (I'd like electrification to be pretty comprehensive), but there are plenty busy lines that would be higher up my list of "routes to electrify" (to "save" Pacers) before we start worrying about "just in case" routes.

 

[mbonwick]

I agree with you about Morecambe but I think that it would be beneficial to electrify to Barrow. While the service is only hourly, the service runs from Manchester and as such the entirety of the services' journey as far as Carnforth will be under the wires within five years, with the section that traverses the WCML already electrified, which is a considerable proportion of the total journey length. It'd make sense for electric trains to be used on this service instead of running diesels under the wires all the way from Manchester to Carnforth. Plus, the service has the ability to fill a 3-car 185, so a three or four car EMU wouldn't be an excessive amount of passenger capacity on some trains.

Fair point, and I agree to an extent.
However, I believe that clearances may be an issue in several locations (not sure which).
There's also the fact that it's still signalled under Absolute Block - surely it would be better to modernise the signalling first?

Finally, on a personal note, I would hate to see overheads spoiling the view out over Arnside Viaduct. As things are, it blends nicely into the Lake District Fells behind - IMHO gantries would ruin that.

 

[Aictos]

The trains on the Blackpool South branch come from Colne though, which is unlikely to be electrified at any point in the next couple of decades, if ever. Plus the service is only hourly.

Medium term, simply turning the Blackpool South branch into an extension of the Blackpool tramway as far as Kirkham and diverting the Colne service to Manchester.

This is what I would like to see happen to the Blackpool South to Colne services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair point, and I agree to an extent.
However, I believe that clearances may be an issue in several locations (not sure which).
There's also the fact that it's still signalled under Absolute Block - surely it would be better to modernise the signalling first?

Finally, on a personal note, I would hate to see overheads spoiling the view out over Arnside Viaduct. As things are, it blends nicely into the Lake District Fells behind - IMHO gantries would ruin that.

But what about the OHL on the bridge at Berwick Upon Tweed, that blends in quite nicely also York as well which goes to prove that OHL can be attractive.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry if I'm going seriously off-topic here, but lengthening the 4-car voyagers might cause some bay platform-related problems (apparently some "bays" at Reading)...

Platform 3 at Reading is good for a 5 car Voyager, but not if extended to 6 car. The other west end bays are not accesible from the main lines.
Platform 7 at Reading is also OK for 5 cars but it goes permanently out of use from the timetable change.

Once the new platforms and western underpasses are available the possibilities at Reading are basically unlimited - and I also reckon they'll probably be available before any Voyagers are lengthened...

 

[Whistler40145]

Why is Reading being mentioned?

I thought we were talking about the Northwest Electrification projects.

 

[Viscount702]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...riangle-electrification-contract-awarded.html

Balfour Beatty Rail announced on November 11 that it had been awarded a contract by Network Rail to undertake electrification and minor signalling works under Phase 1 of the Northwest Triangle scheme to electrify routes around Liverpool and Manchester.

Due for completion by December 2013, Phase 1 covers the installation of 25 kV 50 Hz overhead electrification on 30 km of double track between Castlefield Junction in Manchester and Newton-le-Willows Junction, as well as the curve onto the West Coast Main Line at Lowton Junction.

Phase 2 of the programme will involve wiring the remaining 21 km of double track between Earlsfield and Bootle Branch Junction, completing electrification between Manchester and Liverpool Lime Street. This is due to be energised by December 2014*.

Phases 3 and 4 will see the remaining sections from Huyton to Wigan, Ordsall Lane Junction to Euxton Junction via Bolton, and finally Preston to Blackpool North electrified by December 2016.

*So 2014 is still the expected year for Manchester-Liverpool electrification to be complete, earlier than anything will be released from Thameslink, never mind delivering fully refurbished stock before the wires are ready, as the previous government proposed.

At what point is Victoria wired. The assumption was that it was in phase one but that is clearly not the case.

I am presuming the announcement of funding of the Ordsall Chord has affected this to the extent that it would be pointless to award any contract to carry out any electrification work from Ordsall Lane junction to Victoria until the final design for the Chord has settled and the layout settled in order that the electrification to Victoria makes provision for and allows for the building of the Chord in due course. However bearing in mind that electric traction from Victoria to Liverpool was supposed to start in 2014 will there be time to finalise the design of the Chord and having regard to that get the wires up in time.

On the other hand with the lack of the proposed 319's to operate the service to Liverpool could it be the case that wiring Victoria will be put back until the Chord is built and everything done in one go.

A further complication could be the announcement of the electrification of TPE to Leeds at least. However this and the announcement of perhaps bringing a decision on the HUB or elements of it forward to before June/July 2012 was done after the contract for Phase one was awarded.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why is Reading being mentioned?

I thought we were talking about the Northwest Electrification projects.

Because following up an earlier post jonny asked a slightly off topic, but reasonable question about whether longer Voyagers (having been extended to 5 or 6 car length to use the electrification in the north) would lead to problems elsewhere, eg Reading.

 

[tbtc]

Because following up an earlier post jonny asked a slightly off topic, but reasonable question about whether longer Voyagers (having been extended to 5 or 6 car length to use the electrification in the north) would lead to problems elsewhere, eg Reading.

I thought that was a fair question - there are a few bays around the country that may not be long enough for extended trains (e.g. if the three coach 185s are replaced by four coach EMUs then can the Newcastle bays accommodate them?)

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought that was a fair question - there are a few bays around the country that may not be long enough for extended trains (e.g. if the three coach 185s are replaced by four coach EMUs then can the Newcastle bays accommodate them?)

I know that it's only an example question, but yes they can. Platforms 9 and 10, and probably 11 as well, can all squeeze in 5 x 23 metre carriages (Super Voyagers excepted I imagine due to their slightly longer length compared to other units like 158s), and platform 12 is limited to four carriages IIRC.

 

[tbtc]

I know that it's only an example question, but yes they can. Platforms 9 and 10, and probably 11 as well, can all squeeze in 5 x 23 metre carriages (Super Voyagers excepted I imagine due to their slightly longer length compared to other units like 158s), and platform 12 is limited to four carriages IIRC.

Cheers.

Its one of these things that we don't consider when we hear "longer trains", sometimes it means existing bays etc can't be used - thanks for the clarification