Banbury to Spring Road

[tony_mac]

according to the online routing guide, Spring Road has Banbury as a routing point, so only the shortest route is allowed.
The Nationalrail site shows both via Birmingham and Stratford as being ok - via Birmingham is usually the quicker route.

All of the stations on Birmingham to Stratford line have Banbury as a routing point, it could be a bit difficult for passengers to work out the shortest route for the stations in the middle, if I've got the rules correct.

It doesn't really matter to me, I was just looking for a cheeky way of reducing the cost of Banbury to Birmingham!

 

[clagmonster]

The only valid route is Bandbury-Tyseley-Spring Road, as this is the shortest distance. There are no easements. I was hoping Tyselely and Bordesley would be included in the Birmingham group, so as to allow doubling back, but sadly they aren't.

 

[glynn80]

But the OP is correct, in that the WebTIS's route you, via Brum.

 

[clagmonster]

Indeed. If you intend to go via either Birmingham or Stratford, I would advise that you use one of the websites which shows these as valid routes, get a seat reservation (if possible) and print out the booking confirmation.

 

[tony_mac]

the National Rail site allegedly 'applies the official National Rail Routing Guide provided by the Strategic Rail Authority' - which says travel via Birmingham is valid.

NRES also tells you to change at Birmingham.

On the ATOC site it says that you can use the printable version of the routeing guide - this says that you must travel via Stratford and not Tyseley.

How are the public supposed to know which to use? the shortest route information doesn't seem to be easily available - it's fairly obvious for Spring Road, but what about Shirley or Wood End?

I realise that the ticket would probably be accepted anyway, but I couldn't suggest to my mother that she uses it if it isn't officially valid.

 

[glynn80]

the National Rail site allegedly 'applies the official National Rail Routing Guide provided by the Strategic Rail Authority' - which says travel via Birmingham is valid.

The National Rail site and all the WebTIS's use an interpretation of the routeing guide. They often differ between themselves, taking different inferences from the various rules within the guide.

On the ATOC site it says that you can use the printable version of the routeing guide - this says that you must travel via Stratford and not Tyseley.

How are the public supposed to know which to use? the shortest route information doesn't seem to be easily available - it's fairly obvious for Spring Road, but what about Shirley or Wood End?

Yes it seems that the section B PDFs are not as regularly updated as the rest of the guide is. It might be worth contacting ATOC about that issue because as you rightly say how is a member of the public supposed to know that.

With regard the distances, the official source is the Electronic National Rail Timetable (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3828.aspx) although CORE is a computer program that will work those out the shortest distances for you and is much easier to use (http://www.davros.org/rail/routeing-guide.html).

 

[tony_mac]

ok, thanks, maybe I'm being stupid, but I still can't find the distance information!
and CORE is not working.

 

[glynn80]

ok, thanks, maybe I'm being stupid, but I still can't find the distance information!
and CORE is not working.

Yes CORE isn't operational at the moment, there is another site that has taken up CORE's data in a similar form, but I can't find the URL atm.

With regard to using the E-NRT to find distances, on the first page of each the different timetables, the left hand column lists the mileages to the nearest 0.25 mile.

 

[tony_mac]

well, that was fun, a 2800 page document to browse through to work out the permitted route!

But, if anyone is interested, from Wood End to the south is via Stratford, and stations further north is via Tyseley.

 

[glynn80]

well, that was fun, a 2800 page document to browse through to work out the permitted route!

But, if anyone is interested, from Wood End to the south is via Stratford, and stations further north is via Tyseley.

I've got the shortest route from Wood End to Banbury as follows

Shortest route from Wood End to Banbury
Distance: 42 miles 59 chains
From Wood End
to Wilmcote,
to Hatton,
to Leamington Spa,
to Banbury.

So you cannot actually double back into Stratford upon Avon and will need to wait for your connection at Wilmcote.

Also, the boundary seems to be Wythall and Whitlock's End, with Wythall being shorter via Wilmcote and Whitlock's End shorter via Tyseley.

 

[tony_mac]

yes, you're right - I hadn't considered the change at Wilmcote.
Enforcing that restriction would be utter madness, you would only have 3 valid trains a day!

 

[OwlMan]

There seems to be a major problem with the routeimg guide here:-

If you use the on-line interface you get the following:

Spooner Row Ely Norwich Peterborough
Spring Road Banbury Group Birmingham Group Coventry
SPRINGBURN Glasgow Group Routeing Point Member

However if you clivk on information and then download section B you get this

Spooner Row Ely Norwich Peterborough
Spring Road Stratford U Group Tyseley
SPRINGBURN Glasgow Group Routeing Point Member

It is anyone's guess which is right and it also shows what a mess the routeing guide is!!!!

Which one is right??
And what chance is there of a normal passenger understanding this.


PETER

 

[glynn80]

It is anyone's guess which is right and it also shows what a mess the routeing guide is!!!!

Which one is right??
And what chance is there of a normal passenger understanding this.

Yes tony_mac mentioned this above.

The online version is the version that ATOC seem to update regularly whenever a change to the routeing guide is implemented.

The section B PDF downloads don't seem to be updated at the same time though and there are still some routes supposedly valid in the printed version which were taken out of the online version over a year ago.

The public could easily get confused over issues like this, although I doubt it is going to be a wide spread problem. The average member of the general public is rarely going to consult the routeing guide and if they did would most likely look at the online version anyway.

It may still be worth an email to ATOC just to let them know though...

 

[John @ home]

If you use the on-line interface you get the following:

Spring Road Banbury Group Birmingham Group Coventry

However if you click on information and then download section B you get this

Spring Road Stratford U Group Tyseley

The introduction of Stratford U Group is one of the more significant changes I've spotted between the 2008 and 2009 versions of the Routeing Guide. I was not aware that the change had not been carried forward into the on-line interface.

Which one is right??

As with most errors made by a vendor, a Court is likely to rule in favour of the purchaser where there is ambiguity.

John

 

[glynn80]

The introduction of Stratford U Group is one of the more significant changes I've spotted between the 2008 and 2009 versions of the Routeing Guide. I was not aware that the change had not been carried forward into the on-line interface.

That is really weird as I was convinced the PDF documents were the ones lagging behind on updates.

Although checking just now, it seems as if many of the errors have been corrected since I posted two days ago. Perhaps ATOC do read the forum!

 

[tony_mac]

That is really weird as I was convinced the PDF documents were the ones lagging behind on updates.

The date given on the online guide is May 2009; the date given on the PDF is January 2009, so that's what I thought as well.

I think it means that travel from Banbury to Spring Road (and any other station on that line) must now go via Stratford as Tyseley is not an appropriate routeing point. That's not a good change - but at least you don't have to change at Wilmcote.

BTW, a 'normal' passenger would probably ring NRES and be told to change at Birmingham.

 

[John @ home]

the National Rail site allegedly 'applies the official National Rail Routing Guide provided by the Strategic Rail Authority'

Where does this quote come from? I think it would be worth following this up, to track changes to the ownership of the National Routeing Guide following the abolition of the Strategic Rail Authority.

My first question is: Is the National Rail Routing Guide the same thing as the National Routeing Guide?

John

 

[tony_mac]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/site_help/faqs/journey_planner_faq.html

 

[John @ home]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/site_help/faqs/journey_planner_faq.html

Thanks for the link.

The first National Routeing Guide was approved by the then Rail Regulator in September 1996. A revised guide was approved by him on 6 August 1997. [see http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5510 ]

Since then, the Strategic Rail Authority has been created, then abolished. Although the words in the link provided by tony_mac

How does the site work out the routes I can take?

The journey planner applies the official National Rail Routing Guide provided by the Strategic Rail Authority. This guide sets out which routes are valid for travel on one ticket. ...

remain on the NRE site, it seems they were written between the creation and abolition of the SRA, and are now out of date.

I hope to find out which body or bodies have been allowed to approve NRG changes since 1997, and who holds that authority today.

John

 

[OwlMan]

The date given on the online guide is May 2009; the date given on the PDF is January 2009, so that's what I thought as well.

I

Not quite:
The list of Stations (section B) has a Last Updated date of 03/09/2008 (at the bottom of each section) in the online guide.
The routeing points section has a Last Updated date of 31/03/2009 (at the top of each section) in the online guide.


The creation date of the pdf files was 09/09/2008.

Peter

 

[glynn80]

I hope to find out which body or bodies have been allowed to approve NRG changes since 1997, and who holds that authority today.

John

I have also been seeking this information.

Wikipedia states under the Office of Rail Regulation functions, that it is the body responsible for approving changes to the National Routeing Guide and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

However the ORR website makes no mention of this fact and I remember speaking to somebody at the Department for Transport whose responsibility IIRC was to authorise changes to the NRCoC. Whether this means the routeing guide changes approval functions have also been transferred to the DfT, I do not know, but I'm sure a FOI request could clear things up.

 

[glynn80]

Thanks for the link.

The first National Routeing Guide was approved by the then Rail Regulator in September 1996. A revised guide was approved by him on 6 August 1997. [see http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5510 ]

Since then, the Strategic Rail Authority has been created, then abolished. Although the words in the link provided by tony_mac

I have now managed to trace the fact that the DfT are now the body responsible for "change approval" to both the National Routeing Guide and the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement.

Passengers can also contact the DfT if they feel a route that perhaps used to be in the guide and has now been withdrawn, was done so without proper consideration.