No, we're saying that the system that the TOCs and ORR seem to think is acceptable, is fundamentally flawed and that drivers carrying out duties that they are not trained to do only serve to paper over the cracks. It will go horribly wrong for a driver at some point if they do this.
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Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure
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R
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That does not suggest that the 800s were designed with the perfectly reasonable assumption that the ramps would be in multiple use every day.
Yes, it's a bit of a saga. No idea why.I’ve actually never even seen a 222 on board ramp (which is rather worrying).
The fact you need to isolate things on an 800 to deploy a ramp just seems utterly bonkers.
Even on class 170 you have to do an awkward lift from ground level without any handles to get the thing lined up perfectly with some runners. If you don't line it up with the runners, or put it in slightly out of alignment, then it gets jammed solid and requires significant persuasion to move. All in a tiny space behind the large toilet.
I once found an agency assistance worker in a spot of bother with one. He'd got it out of line and tried to force the cupboard door shut, ripping it off it's hinges in the process. Oops.
On board ramps on cramped UK trains are a huge pain. Station mounted ones are much easier to use, generally!
12LDA28C
Established Member
I'm well aware of risk assessment and competence management, thankyou. I'm also aware that on the few occasions when I've helped a passenger on or off a train myself using a ramp that the risk of getting it wrong is pretty small and I've made my own judgement as to the risks involved. It's not like a driver is being asked to work a train over a route they don't sign, is it? Now that would certainly not happen due to the risks involved but the two events are not really comparable.
quite clear you do not understand the basic principles of Employer's Liability and the Liability an Organisation has towards the public / customers
there is also a PUWER ( Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations ) aspect to this and tangentially there may be LOLER (Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations) implications with regard to equipment used to assist passengers with impaired mobility ( although LOLER less of an issue for the worker than the the organisation / managers)
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The only thing you isolate on an 800 is the door auto close system, it’s one turn of a t key whilst at the door. 99% of the time it’s already isolated, takes 2 seconds to do.I’ve actually never even seen a 222 on board ramp (which is rather worrying
The fact you need to isolate things on an 800 to deploy a ramp just seems utterly bonkers.
Then you have to use a t key to fold a metal flap to extend out so that the ramp can be fixed onto it.
Time to clear up the cleaners thing - here is a link to Ms Grey-Thompson giving an interview with LBC, around a third of the way in she states:
“I did have an offer of help from one of the cleaning staff, but they don’t have access to the ramp, they’re not trained, they’re not insured, I’m not going to risk someone’s job…”
So, it would appear that the much-maligned cleaners did offer assistance. Of course, we don’t know exactly what help was offered, and whether or not the cleaners duly alerted other colleagues, but we can at least put to bed the repeated suggestions that they just walked on by.
The link below is to the interview on LBC’s “X” (Twitter) page, and is accessible without a login.
x.com
“I did have an offer of help from one of the cleaning staff, but they don’t have access to the ramp, they’re not trained, they’re not insured, I’m not going to risk someone’s job…”
So, it would appear that the much-maligned cleaners did offer assistance. Of course, we don’t know exactly what help was offered, and whether or not the cleaners duly alerted other colleagues, but we can at least put to bed the repeated suggestions that they just walked on by.
The link below is to the interview on LBC’s “X” (Twitter) page, and is accessible without a login.
x.com
x.com
Time to clear up the cleaners thing - here is a link to Ms Grey-Thompson giving an interview with LBC, around a third of the way in she states:
“I did have an offer of help from one of the cleaning staff, but they don’t have access to the ramp, they’re not trained, they’re not insured, I’m not going to risk someone’s job…”
So, it would appear that the much-maligned cleaners did offer assistance. Of course, we don’t know exactly what help was offered, and whether or not the cleaners duly alerted other colleagues, but we can at least put to bed the repeated suggestions that they just walked on by.
The link below is to the interview on LBC’s “X” (Twitter) page, and is accessible without a login.
x.com
I don't think anyone was suggesting the cleaners wouldn't help, it's that they couldn't help (for the reasons TGT states and those listed in the thread)
There were various suggestions that the cleaners made their “not insured” excuses and simply left her to it; the interview implies that in fact Ms Grey-Thompson declined their offer of assistance, citing them being “uninsured” herself. That’s a rather different perspective.
The ramp on an 80x is not a good bit of design; both the process of deploying it and of getting it in and out of the cupboard is time consuming and faffy for the staff who do it!
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I think this is one of those issues which I have been in, in a different context, where if one is asked a question publicly or online, one has to be seen to give the 'official' answer whereas in reality many people would not want to discourage others from using their initiative.
father_jack
Established Member
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Boot all passengers off and run ECS and pax are picked up by next train- no driver, game over.
But at a station you can have four or five different ones for different traction scattered to the four winds behind poles in locked holders with sometimes differnet opening methods, easier having train ones so you can't go wrong !!!
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RJ
Established Member
Where I’m based, all TOC staff are ramp trained. That’s platform, gateline and ticket office staff. Incoming unbooked assists are notified to the platform phone, or ticket office if it can’t be reached. Something has to go wrong for an assist to be missed.
Ramp training is important. In training videos we see real incidents involving inappropriate use, wheelchairs have tipped over and objects have fallen down onto the tracks. It has to be the right type of ramp for the class of train, lugs have to be used correctly if present, lugged ramps can’t be used with trains without lug holes and the ramp has to be secured properly. Also people with wrist injuries or certain other medical conditions might not be able to use them safely.
A passer by who isn’t ramp trained can only realistically help by summoning someone who is trained which might not necessarily be a quick process at a station like King’s Cross.
Ramp training is important. In training videos we see real incidents involving inappropriate use, wheelchairs have tipped over and objects have fallen down onto the tracks. It has to be the right type of ramp for the class of train, lugs have to be used correctly if present, lugged ramps can’t be used with trains without lug holes and the ramp has to be secured properly. Also people with wrist injuries or certain other medical conditions might not be able to use them safely.
A passer by who isn’t ramp trained can only realistically help by summoning someone who is trained which might not necessarily be a quick process at a station like King’s Cross.
It doesn’t take long, but it is crucial it is carried out for anyone who is going to use the ramp.
It's probably around an hour or so. Do it as a group and have some practice too. Probably need to appreciate the train stock to (some have buttons that prevent auto-close, for instance).
perhaps an hour or so in the class room to cover off the Health and Safety side, the regulatory side of things and basic principles of operation and then 30 -60 minutes per type of stock to cover the variations and actually deploy the ramps
RJ
Established Member
There are different types of ramps and there are ways to fumble it and cause injury...if something can go wrong, at some point, with someone, it will. It doesn't matter how long the training takes - if it's not done then the person operating the ramp can cause problems.
I actually meant other passengers. I recall once helping a driver carry an internal door along a platform which was hanging off its hinges. It was rather heavy. Neither of us were trained to unscrew screws or carry doors; we just got on with it.
Fair enough. I was probably being unnecessarily facetious.
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I found this blog, and its comparison's of being around and about in Paris and London of interest: https://stepfreelondon.uk/comparative-accessibility-paris/
2 wrongs don't make it better, London has a lot to improve on.
I think now is a good time to draw this discussion to a close as everyone has now had a chance to have their say. 
On the wider issue of solutions for wheelchairs on trains, please see this thread.
On the wider issue of solutions for wheelchairs on trains, please see this thread.
Solutions for wheelchair access to trains
Moderator note - spilt from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/baroness-tanni-grey-thompson-yet-another-assistance-failure.272989/ London's buses all have automatic ramps. How difficult is it to fix them in the doors in the wheelchair areas?
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