Baroness Thatcher has died

[Johnuk123]

Also remember the decline in the coal mining industry started well before Thatcher. Harold Wilson's government shut far more pits than she did.

406 pits closed in the 1960s, with 315,000 job losses
146 closed in the 1980s, with 173,000 jobs lost

Interesting, so after all the talk about Thatcher destroying the coal industry single handed it was in fact the Labour party who did the vast majority of the closures.

 

[table38]

Interesting, so after all the talk about Thatcher destroying the coal industry single handed it was in fact the Labour party who did the vast majority of the closures.

I just spotted the disparity beteen manpower and output in that chart after 1988, so some of it was also about raising efficiency. That could of course be more mechanisation.

 

[Butts]

Interesting, so after all the talk about Thatcher destroying the coal industry single handed it was in fact the Labour party who did the vast majority of the closures.

Why is more not being made of this in the media as a riposte to the myth that Thatcher was solely responsible.

Has anyone heard a comment from "Brother Arthur" yet - he seems to have been very quiet

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I just spotted the disparity beteen manpower and output in that chart after 1988, so some of it was also about raising efficiency. That could of course be more mechanisation.

Yes, many of the pits that were closed (Somerset, Forest of Dean for example) in this period were older and less mechanised. Those that survived were generally more modern.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone heard a comment from "Brother Arthur" yet - he seems to have been very quiet

Still learning to balance those Shredded Wheat on top of his head.....

 

[SS4]

I don't think anyone in this thread claimed that she was a saint and is perfect. What a lot of people are asking for is some respect at someone's death. There is absolutely no requirement not to speak ill of the dead. Debate her rights and wrongs all you want, but dancing in celebration is not appropriate imo.

My apologies, I meant to say it in the context of the wider world rather than this thread. As for Central News my parents watch it so if I want food when it's on I've no choice

 

[Butts]

Still learning to balance those Shredded Wheat on top of his head.....

Or sulking about the loss of his recent case against the NUM that resulted in him having to pay the rent himself on his "Barbican Pad"

 

[table38]

On noes, someone is calling for a statue of her on the empty plinth in Trafalgar Square

It'd have to have good security or be encircled by a shark-infested moat, or it could end up being adorned with far worse than Wellington in Exchange Square in Glasgow

 

[Butts]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the age of deference and Government by Noblesse Oblige from patrician Liberal and Tory Aristocrats was not that bad in retrospect

 

[balne-wonderer]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the "poverty pockets" in Yorkshire or anywhere else.

Are you suggesting The Dearne Valley has never recovered from the loss of the pits ? Is there a high rate of unemployment there and or social deprivation?

Surely not everyone worked in mining , what about all the Public Sector workers who lived there ?

I can honestly say the Dearne Valley has never recovered and continues to be an area of incredible and upsetting deprivation. I once went out with a girl from Denaby who was from a mining family. Now i'm not from the best area of Leeds but I was taken aback, almost to the point of tears to see how primatively her family, and many others in that area lived. The country has simply forgotten about these areas and that all started and carried out by Thatcher.

Even now it troubles me what I saw during that period. Like I said, Cross Gates/Swarcliffe is hardly the most prosperous area of Leeds but I got first hand look at poverty in the Dearne Valley.

 

[SS4]

I'd rather see a plinth for Lloyd George although he's probably forever tied with Passchendaele

 

[Butts]

I'd rather see a plinth for Lloyd George although he's probably forever tied with Passchendaele

From my recollection (of readings) he was more "tied up" with his numerous mistresses

 

[12CSVT]

On noes, someone is calling for a statue of her on the empty plinth in Trafalgar Square

I remember this being suggested many years ago. It was also suggested at the time that the pigeons would be able to do to her what she did to us.

 

[Butts]

I can honestly say the Dearne Valley has never recovered and continues to be an area of incredible and upsetting deprivation. I once went out with a girl from Denaby who was from a mining family. Now i'm not from the best area of Leeds but I was taken aback, almost to the point of tears to see how primatively her family, and many others in that area lived. The country has simply forgotten about these areas and that all started and carried out by Thatcher.

Even now it troubles me what I saw during that period. Like I said, Cross Gates/Swarcliffe is hardly the most prosperous area of Leeds but I got first hand look at poverty in the Dearne Valley.

I appreciate what you are saying and am not doubting your sincerity.

Without appearing to be voyeuristic could you define what you mean by "living primitively" and are you comparing this with how they used to live prior to the closure of the mines ?

 

[341o2]

it should be remembered that she was anti railway

 

[ainsworth74]

it should be remembered that she was anti railway

How so? Because:

• ECML eletrification + IC225s
• Introduction of large numbers of Pacers and Sprinters
• Introduction of Networkers
• Support for Sectorisation
• Authorisations for various light rail schemes
• Beginning of Channel Tunnel as a rail link
• Reopening of quite a number of stations

All happened under her watch. At worst she was Laissez-faire when it came to the railways but I don't quite see how she was anti-railway? At least in terms of policy if not personal politics.

 

[Darandio]

it should be remembered that she was anti railway

But was instrumental in realising the dream of a Channel Tunnel....

That doesn't quite work out then, does it?

 

[Butts]

it should be remembered that she was anti railway

Is that why she commissioned The Channel Tunnel and the subsequent launch of Eurostar Services ?

 

[341o2]

I remember this being suggested many years ago. It was also suggested at the time that the pigeons would be able to do to her what she did to us.

not a unique suggestion as another joke after Cherie Blair got a bun in the oven was

"Tony's been practising his intentions for the British public"

 

[Railsigns]

it should be remembered that she was anti railway

Thatcher hated the railways. You know that it's true when a Tory MP uttered these words in Parliament:

"I had considerable doubt about the transport policy of the Conservative Government under my former right hon. Friend Margaret Thatcher. She was perceived, rightly, in many quarters as being hostile to the railways."

 

[ainsworth74]

Thatcher hated the railways.

Perhaps but they hardly did badly under her stewardship. Indeed I'd suggest they did worse under Major and the following Labour government! Not bad for someone who hated the railways...

 

[LE Greys]

Perhaps but they hardly did badly under her stewardship. Indeed I'd suggest they did worse under Major and the following Labour government! Not bad for someone who hated the railways...

That may have had more to do with Sir Peter Parker though.

 

[Butts]

That may have had more to do with Sir Peter Parker though.

Or dare I say it, the advertising campaign fronted by a certain Mr Savile who was a pal of Maggies !!

 

[Railsigns]

Perhaps but they hardly did badly under her stewardship.

That's rather at odds with the usual rubbish we get from Tory sympathisers about how privatisation saved the rail industry from terminal decline. Get your story straight, please.

Indeed I'd suggest they did worse under Major and the following Labour government! Not bad for someone who hated the railways...

Of the three (Thatcher, Major, Blair), Major certainly did the railways the most harm.

 

[ainsworth74]

That may have had more to do with Sir Peter Parker though.

Hence my earlier comment that at worst she took a Laissez-faire approach or alternatively that she basicly didn't meddle and let BR get on with it. Which meant that, because they had a crop of good managers at that point, they did rather well for themselves.

That's rather at odds with the usual rubbish we get from Tory sympathisers about how privatisation saved the rail industry from terminal decline. Get your story straight, please.

Not quite sure what story I need to get straight?

Of the three (Thatcher, Major, Blair), Major certainly did the railways the most harm.

Agreed.

 

[DarloRich]

I find it interesting that even a paper as left-wing as this thing can return a 50% positive vote on Thatcherism, even allowing for uncertainty. The simple fact is, as even a lot of apparently left-wing people accept, most of what she did was necessary. Sure, she may have overdone the odd thing, but who/what hasn't? As with Beeching, it was necessary surgery for the benefit of the future, not mad chopping. If the odd community here or there had to suffer to allow 90% or more to improve, then so be it...

ODD COMMUNITY??????????????? THOSE WERE THE LIVES AND FUTURES OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THROWN AWAY LIKE THEY WERE NOTHING.

I can not, without being banded from this site in an instant, express my contempt, disgust and bewilderment at this kind of ignorant, insulting and condescending twaddle. You are, frankly a fool. I dare not say any more as my anger at this type of post is rising rapidly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How so? Because the introduction of large numbers of Pacers all happened under her watch.

Oh no...you have hit my "sore point" with that relevation....

I always assumed that the introduction of the Pacers was something that was foretold in the Book of Revelations, written about in the Dead Sea Scrolls, cryptically referred to in the works of Nostradamus and in pictures on the walls of the tombs at Megiddo.

"And I saw a beast rising out of Newton Heath with faulty doors and poor suspension and missing carden shafts with ten areas of rust and seven faulty windows and a blasphemous name upon its destination board"
Based loosely upon Revelations : 13.

 

[4SRKT]

Or dare I say it, the advertising campaign fronted by a certain Mr Savile who was a pal of Maggies !!

And they will both be remembered by history for screwing miners.

 

[DarloRich]

I find it interesting that even a paper as left-wing as this thing can return a 50% positive vote on Thatcherism, even allowing for uncertainty. The simple fact is, as even a lot of apparently left-wing people accept, most of what she did was necessary. Sure, she may have overdone the odd thing, but who/what hasn't? As with Beeching, it was necessary surgery for the benefit of the future, not mad chopping. If the odd community here or there had to suffer to allow 90% or more to improve, then so be it...

and another thing. Those odd communities was where i lived and grew up. Those people thrown the scrap heap were my family and friends of my family. Those people destroyed were good, hard working, decent, people.

Don't you DARE tell me it was worth it for for the greater good. EVER. Why? because while you might have done alright the greater good still hasn't reached large portions of the "odd communities" she destroyed.

I am seething with rage.

 

[Butts]

And they will both be remembered by history for screwing miners.

Don't forget to add Arthur Scargill to that duo