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Battery electric trains or Hydrogen Trains?

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swt_passenger

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I can see batteries being used to allow a higher peak power draw, allowing longer trains this way. I would not however expect to see trains powering each other via 3rd rail, as the substation sections are short and so trains would need to be in the right places at the right times (I.E. Useless in disruption!)
Trains do power each other - it’s exactly how third rail regeneration works, because the “short substation sections” are connected together in most normal circumstances.

Onboard software checks for voltage rise on the supply side and reverts to rheostatic braking if there is no receptivity.
 
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NSEFAN

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Trains do power each other - it’s exactly how third rail regeneration works, because the “short substation sections” are connected together in most normal circumstances.
Regenerative braking is more about making use of power which would otherwise be dissipated as heat, and therefore wasted. Trains are still limited by the peak power delivery of the substation, as you can't assume that another train will be providing energy to allow for a greater current demand. What seemed to be described earlier is using batteries from multiple trains in order to power each other, allowing an increase and hence longer trains. I can see that being done with on-train batteries acting as bulk capacitors, so the peak draw during acceleration can effectivley be spread out during braking and linespeed running, but again you can't assume that other trains will always be around to provide that power instead.
 

edwin_m

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Regenerative braking is more about making use of power which would otherwise be dissipated as heat, and therefore wasted. Trains are still limited by the peak power delivery of the substation, as you can't assume that another train will be providing energy to allow for a greater current demand. What seemed to be described earlier is using batteries from multiple trains in order to power each other, allowing an increase and hence longer trains. I can see that being done with on-train batteries acting as bulk capacitors, so the peak draw during acceleration can effectivley be spread out during braking and linespeed running, but again you can't assume that other trains will always be around to provide that power instead.
This is down to a complex balance of power, weight and cost. If the batteries are on board the train then the train is heavier and needs more power to accelerate at the same rate - so is it actually counterproductive? My gut feel at the moment is that it would be, but I can't support that with any evidence. Putting the batteries on the trackside gets round that issue and also removes limits on battery weight and volume, but makes the idea less effective because the resistance of the third rail between the train and the batteries limits the possible current in both directions and dissipates some of the stored energy as heat. Hence there is a tradeoff between larger and possibly more efficient batteries and smaller ones closer together, and they also need to consider fault conditions and engineering isolations when all sources of power have to be disconnected. There's also a whole raft of questions about charge/discharge rates to support hard acceleration and deceleration - capacitors are better than batteries in this respect but worse for amount of energy stored in the same weight or volume. And obviously whatever is done has to be cost-effective - what is the financial benefit of better acceleration?

Another issue is the developing technology paradox which I first recall seeing mentioned by Arthur C Clarke in relation to interstellar travel. If the performance and price of batteries is improving dramatically then there's an argument to do nothing now because you'll be able to do something much better in five years time.
 

reddragon

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This is down to a complex balance of power, weight and cost. If the batteries are on board the train then the train is heavier and needs more power to accelerate at the same rate - so is it actually counterproductive? My gut feel at the moment is that it would be, but I can't support that with any evidence. Putting the batteries on the trackside gets round that issue and also removes limits on battery weight and volume, but makes the idea less effective because the resistance of the third rail between the train and the batteries limits the possible current in both directions and dissipates some of the stored energy as heat. Hence there is a tradeoff between larger and possibly more efficient batteries and smaller ones closer together, and they also need to consider fault conditions and engineering isolations when all sources of power have to be disconnected. There's also a whole raft of questions about charge/discharge rates to support hard acceleration and deceleration - capacitors are better than batteries in this respect but worse for amount of energy stored in the same weight or volume. And obviously whatever is done has to be cost-effective - what is the financial benefit of better acceleration?

Another issue is the developing technology paradox which I first recall seeing mentioned by Arthur C Clarke in relation to interstellar travel. If the performance and price of batteries is improving dramatically then there's an argument to do nothing now because you'll be able to do something much better in five years time.
The 14,000+ electric buses in China use ultra-capacitors for their quick charge / discharge capabilities, but charge and each bus stop! They have a small battery back up too as capacitors only hold their charge for a relativity short time.

A capacitor had 5% of the capability of a battery for storage until the recent 1000 fold increase being rolled out today. A mix of batteries & capacitors on the train and at sub-stations would achieve huge savings if designed well. Of course so rapid is the current development that every 18 months doubles the output AND halves the cost giving a 4 fold benefit.
 

TwistedMentat

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I wonder if you could also use trackside batteries spread along a third rail section to improve energy efficiency. Basically you could charge the batteries at a lower current so less power loss. Then when a train comes by the nearest battery pack provides the main boost. The fallback setup being what currently exists with the whole rail section powered from the transformer.

You could even start getting tricky and reducing the transformer spec and rely on the battery for the peak power draw as trains roll by.

Seriously, the idea of using grid scale battery storage along tracks is really interesting. I wonder if any track owners have started thinking about it.
 

HSTEd

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I wonder if you could also use trackside batteries spread along a third rail section to improve energy efficiency. Basically you could charge the batteries at a lower current so less power loss. Then when a train comes by the nearest battery pack provides the main boost. The fallback setup being what currently exists with the whole rail section powered from the transformer.

You could even start getting tricky and reducing the transformer spec and rely on the battery for the peak power draw as trains roll by.

Seriously, the idea of using grid scale battery storage along tracks is really interesting. I wonder if any track owners have started thinking about it.

I ran some calculations, indicating that the best bet would simply to make cheap low voltage connected substations and put them every few hundred metres, because that drastically reduces losses to joule heating - the losses are proportional to the square of the current so even supplying a few percent of the load close to the train results in substantial savings.
 

xotGD

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You could adopt on-the-go battery change-out using the technique previously used with mail bags...

I suspect we'll see batteries as a bi-mode option to allow electric trains to bridge the gaps between the wires, whereas hydrogen will replace diesel as the primary fuel on non-electric trains
 

superkev

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There's an excellent article in this months modern railways where Roger Ford rubbishes both.
Of interest he quotes an overall efficiency of an hydrogen train where the hydrogen is produced by electrolysis of just 30% compared with 85% for electrification
K
 

D365

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This is down to a complex balance of power, weight and cost. If the batteries are on board the train then the train is heavier and needs more power to accelerate at the same rate - so is it actually counterproductive? My gut feel at the moment is that it would be, but I can't support that with any evidence.

The Valence battery pack from the Class 379 trial weighed in under 8 tonnes, which is less than a 5% increase in mass per four car unit.

There's also a whole raft of questions about charge/discharge rates to support hard acceleration and deceleration - capacitors are better than batteries in this respect but worse for amount of energy stored in the same weight or volume.

The aforementioned battery system is apparently capable of capturing most/all energy from regen, although it may require some kind of forced cooling.

Another issue is the developing technology paradox which I first recall seeing mentioned by Arthur C Clarke in relation to interstellar travel. If the performance and price of batteries is improving dramatically then there's an argument to do nothing now because you'll be able to do something much better in five years time.

The Class 379 trial specified a target lifespan of five years, which in this case is quite ideal.
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder this thread is to discuss Battery electric trains or Hydrogen Trains?

It is good to see this thread is back on topic, please keep it that way :)

If you wish to go off-topic, or reply to someone who has already done so, please create a new thread (if there is not already a suitable thread) in an appropriate forum. Feel free to link to it here (as done by edwin_m), as this is much better than moderators having to split a thread (which can be very time consuming and problematical). Thanks :)
 

broadgage

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I see there is an Australian solar powered train. Whilst the British climate, even with changes, is unlikely to be able to support this could solar power be an addition to batteries?

Pesuming that this is the same "solar powered" train that I have seen* then it is a fairly standard battery powered train with a small supplement from solar modules mounted on the train. Interesting, certainly, worthwhile, arguably yes. But not as new or as interesting as is implied. The great majority of the power used is obtained by plugging the train into utility power to recharge the batteries.
The depot is fitted with a large grid tied PV array, so it could be argued that the train is indirectly "solar powered"
The same could be said of any UK battery train if sufficient PV modules were installed on railway property.

*Seen and read about on line that is, not by personal inspection !
 

broadgage

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Over the last few months there have been a number of good but used lithium iron phosphate batteries for sale on ebay. I strongly suspect that these are the ones used for the trial battery powered train.
If so, they are still in good condition, I know someone who purchased several.
 

D365

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Over the last few months there have been a number of good but used lithium iron phosphate batteries for sale on ebay. I strongly suspect that these are the ones used for the trial battery powered train.
If so, they are still in good condition, I know someone who purchased several.

Would you mind PMing me the links, if you have them?
 

broadgage

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There are several vendors of these on ebay.
Suggested search term is "12 volt lithium battery", restricting the search to used items.
Some of the results will be small batteries for cordless tools, but several are for relatively large 12 volt (12.8 volts in fact) of 200 amp hours or thereabouts.
I have no connection with any of the sellers.
 

edwin_m

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Over the last few months there have been a number of good but used lithium iron phosphate batteries for sale on ebay. I strongly suspect that these are the ones used for the trial battery powered train.
If so, they are still in good condition, I know someone who purchased several.
May Modern Railways says Vivarail used those batteries for a while in a 230 prototype but have now got some better ones. So if they were "buyer collects Long Marston" you may well be right.
 

D365

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May Modern Railways says Vivarail used those batteries for a while in a 230 prototype but have now got some better ones. So if they were "buyer collects Long Marston" you may well be right.

Yeah the Class 379 batteries were passed on to Vivarail. I believe the company has continued working with Valence.
 

Jonny

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I suspect that an issue with hydrogen-powered trains, that could prove a deal-braker in the UK, is that the low loading gauge would prevent rooftop tanks (hydrogen leakage rises up and away) which could be used in other railway systems.
 

HSTEd

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Isn't the entire UK bus fleet something under than 10,000 vehicles?
Perhaps the work of a few years but perhaps we should just go all electric on a national scale.
 

edwin_m

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I read something the other day that China is building circa 3,500 electric buses a year.

This one, linked from London Reconnections, suggests it is many times more than that.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry
The numbers are staggering. China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

All this is starting to make an observable reduction in fuel demand. And because they consume 30 times more fuel than average sized cars, their impact on energy use so far has become much greater than the passenger sedans produced by companies from Tesla Inc. to Toyota Motor Corp.
Note that the "30 times more fuel" doesn't mean the consumption per mile of a diesel bus is that of 30 cars, it takes into account that the average bus spends much more of its time operating than the average car.
 

The Ham

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reddragon

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That simple fact is why there is no reason against us having battery / capacitor powered trains with power points at stations.

Heavy freight is another matter!
 

xotGD

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That simple fact is why there is no reason against us having battery / capacitor powered trains with power points at stations.

Heavy freight is another matter!
For freight it needs to be hydrogen. We could take a lesson from the steam era and carry the fuel in a tender behind the locomotive.
 

hwl

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For freight it needs to be hydrogen. We could take a lesson from the steam era and carry the fuel in a tender behind the locomotive.
For freight its LNG which is being used in the States and Russia. LNG virtually eliminates NOx and PM emissions and existing Locos can be retrofitted (kits are available for EMD 710 engines)
 

InTheEastMids

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That simple fact is why there is no reason against us having battery / capacitor powered trains with power points at stations.

Reinforcing the electricity networks around major stations to deliver the power to recharge the trains could add quite a lot of cost to this concept, although that cost would be specific to each case.

An alternative would be to build a substation where the rail network intersects the 400 kV transmission system, and then create a new electricity network connection into the town along the rail corridor... perhaps using some kind of overhead line... :idea::lol:
 

xotGD

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For freight its LNG which is being used in the States and Russia. LNG virtually eliminates NOx and PM emissions and existing Locos can be retrofitted (kits are available for EMD 710 engines)
While LNG has a greatly reduced carbon footprint v diesel, it is still a source of greenhouse gas emissions. Hydrogen is needed if the locomotive is to be zero carbon.
 

xotGD

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It has just occurred to me that a steam locomotive burning sustainable wood rather than coal could be the answer to railway decarbonisation...
 

reddragon

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My basic calculations,

1000 litres of Diesel @ 10 kwh per litre = 10,000 kWh
Diesel engines are up to 45% efficient / but no more than 40% on large engines, so 4000 kwh is provided to the transmission
The electric transmission is 80% efficient so 3200 kwh gets to the track

A battery loses 10% on transmission so a battery size of 3520 kW is required without allowing for regen or idling. If we allow for those a battery of about 3000 kw would power a diesel loco with a 1000 litre tank.

Older UK locos hold about 3500 litres whereas a class 66 holds 6400 litres, hence a 66 would need a battery of around 20,000 kwh if no charging was possible all day.

Current battery packs are down to 190 kg for 50 kwh, that would be a 75 ton battery!

An power plant weighs about 50t for the engine + alternator, plus 7t for the fuel.

So a battery is not a million miles away in weight! Cooling it might be another matter of course.
Cost, currently at £125/kwh = £2.5m, but is that so much more than a diesel / alternator set?

A class 66 that goes under the wires at any point (or the class 88) may not actually need such a large battery anyway!

Anyone with better figures out there?
 
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