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Battery powered train trials

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absolutelymilk

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After the trial of battery powered trains earlier this year

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...attery-powered-train-carries-first-passengers

A new battery-powered train will pick up its first passengers this week, signalling that the days of noisy and polluting diesel engines may soon be a thing of the past.

Following successful trials of a prototype at test tracks in Derby and Leicestershire last year, the modified Class 379 Electrostar battery-powered train – also known as an Independently Powered Electric Multiple Unit (IPEMU) – will run a weekday service for five weeks between Harwich International and Manningtree stations in Essex.

The IPEMU, which has been emblazoned with ‘Batteries Included’ livery, is the first battery-powered train to run on the UK’s rail network in more than half a century.

Network Rail said it will contribute to the company’s goal of reducing its environmental impact, improving sustainability and reducing the cost of running the railway by 20% over the next five years.

Should the trial prove successful, a fleet of battery-powered trains could be seen across the network...

are there any plans for further trials? It seems like a good solution to me for places where electrification is difficult due to tunnels, bridges etc. as we could electrify the rest of the line and then rely on small batteries to get through the bridge/tunnel without any risk of being stuck without power (as would be the case if they simply coasted as some have suggested)
 
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swt_passenger

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You need to check out the rolling stock section of these forums:

The most recent thread was last month, FGW had been asked to look at IPEMU (battery EMU) for the north downs route, and Newbury to Bedwyn:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116439&highlight=ipemu

Older thread about the trials:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110705&highlight=ipemu

I don't think there are any discrete trials planned for the moment, I'm pretty sure the temporarily converted Class 379 was returned to normal.
 
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47802

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suggestions on WNXX seem to be that a significant number of 387 for FGW could be IPMU as potentially seen as way of speeding up turbo cascades in the light of delayed electrification
 
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Chris125

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suggestions on WNXX seem to be that a significant number of 387 for FGW could be IPMU as potentially seen as way of speeding up turbo cascades in the light of delayed electrification

Hard to believe given the shortcomings of the 379 trial, but time will tell.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Could you please point me to sources where these shortcomings are aired?

Thanks in anticipation.

Dave

Modern Railways - April 2015 p42-43

Ian Walmsley (who most of you will know was formerly Engineering Development Manager with Porterbrook Leasing) has done the economics on it, with no help from the actual Class 379 team, who are doing a great PR act and some lousy engineering.

Walmsley did the calculations based on serving Sudbury and the battery size calculations came to 660kWh, rather than the 452kWh on the trail unit, which gives a cost for a single battery pack somewhere around £570,000. The life expectancy of the battery is around 2,000 cycles which equates to 5 years. I'm sure those of you who know the details of the 27.5 year MTU contract for the Hitachi Super Express program are shaking your heads at this stage (1 x 12V1600R80L engine comes to €800,000 with 27.5 years of maintenance support from the manufacturer)

Walmsley correctly but perhaps, in my view, over optimistically discounts the cost of the battery for bulk order and continual manufacturing cost reductions, giving a total cost on average of £300,000 for each battery pack. He doesn't explicitly commit but I'd suggest he's also working on manufacturing cost reductions offsetting inflation on the price of the battery packs and they'll remain around the £300k mark for much of their life, which gives a total cost of £2m for batteries alone over the 35 year life expectancy of a new build EMU.

£2m is just slightly more than the total cost for 1 vehicle of an EMU, and it's not a cost that can be written off/depreciated against, the battery pack costs money, 5 years later the next battery pack costs money and so on, there's going to be no discernible decrease in the leasing costs, which work out at something in the region of £17,000 per battery pack per month, going on Ian's figures.

If we go around sticking battery packs under even a fraction of the Class 387s they'll be receiving will be astronomically expensive. If they need to do it for all 37, you can see how expensive that gets each year - an additional leasing cost of £8m per year. £8m that someone will need to pay each year for the 5 years of the batteries life - either franchise or DfT. That's £40m to lease the batteries for just 5 years, though thankfully at the end of 5 years, they can be safely disposed of (we would assume the leasing fees will cover disposal costs). It is possible, I guess, that DfT might buy the battery packs, retain ownership and do something with the cost so it doesn't come out of the franchise, but it's still money being burned by someone, somewhere.

There's the thorny issue of track access charges too, I've never been able to find out how much the extra 8 tonnes of weight on the Class 379 unit would cost in a proper commercial setting, or how 12 tonnes of weight needed for a more sensible IPEMU implementation would impact on track access charges, but I'd expect the battery vehicle to be getting on for double the cost per mile for track access charges, so up from around 6.5p per mile to 12p or 13p, due to the way track access costs increase almost exponentially with increasing weight.

I'd be unsurprised if, when the entire cost of 5 years of IPEMU operation on the Great Western route is fully worked out, the costs come in at £50m and £50m buys a number of Kirow piling machines, it buys a number of road rail electrification vehicles and it pays a lot of salaries over a couple of years, if that sort of money is going to be made available, use it to speed up electrification, not to mitigate against late delivery.
 

Philip Phlopp

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For those of you with an interest in the science behind battery packs, there's a decent article in New Scientist this week about battery chemistry, power density and manufacturing costs.
 

mrmartin

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Modern Railways - April 2015 p42-43

Ian Walmsley (who most of you will know was formerly Engineering Development Manager with Porterbrook Leasing) has done the economics on it, with no help from the actual Class 379 team, who are doing a great PR act and some lousy engineering.

Walmsley did the calculations based on serving Sudbury and the battery size calculations came to 660kWh, rather than the 452kWh on the trail unit, which gives a cost for a single battery pack somewhere around £570,000. The life expectancy of the battery is around 2,000 cycles which equates to 5 years. I'm sure those of you who know the details of the 27.5 year MTU contract for the Hitachi Super Express program are shaking your heads at this stage (1 x 12V1600R80L engine comes to €800,000 with 27.5 years of maintenance support from the manufacturer)

Not sure about the maths here. According to Tesla a quarter of the cost of their cars is batteries. Which apparently according to http://insideevs.com/tesla-battery-...less-than-a-quarter-of-the-car-in-most-cases/ it comes out to $238/kWh, which is very roughly £100,000 for a 660kWh battery.

Furthermore, battery prices have been rapidly reducing - something I read but don't have a source is by 50% every 5ish years. Which means that by the time they need replaced, they will be a lot cheaper, especially with the resource Tesla et al is throwing at this problem.

While the track access charges is true, there's also less costs as there is no wiring to inspect and go wrong.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Not sure about the maths here. According to Tesla a quarter of the cost of their cars is batteries. Which apparently according to http://insideevs.com/tesla-battery-...less-than-a-quarter-of-the-car-in-most-cases/ it comes out to $238/kWh, which is very roughly £100,000 for a 660kWh battery.

Furthermore, battery prices have been rapidly reducing - something I read but don't have a source is by 50% every 5ish years. Which means that by the time they need replaced, they will be a lot cheaper, especially with the resource Tesla et al is throwing at this problem.

While the track access charges is true, there's also less costs as there is no wiring to inspect and go wrong.

IPEMU doesn't use the same battery chemistry - instead of Lithium Ion batteries, it uses Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery packs to navigate round the issues of Lithium Ion batteries catching fire, which were pretty much immediately ruled out on a safety case basis.

Batteries won't get 50% cheaper every 5 years - they're a metallic based product and obey the same economics as steel and aluminium, not computer processors - that's something the IPEMU people talk about, with references to Moore's Law applying to batteries, it is, unfortunately, complete nonsense.

Battery prices are based on the cost of digging something out of the ground - it's quite clearly the case that extracting, processing and refining, in this case Lithium salts and Iron ore is always going to cost a set amount, invariably linked to labour costs, fuel costs, machinery costs, taxation and other government charges.

The amount of energy each kg of Lithium or whatever battery chemistry you choose can ever hold was set, dramatically, the day the universe was formed. There's not an ability to store ever increasing amounts of energy in the same weight of a chemical compound, there is always an absolute limit, which we know already.

The New Scientist article I mentioned earlier discusses all of this but 30% is seen as the best unit cost improvements we can gain, though that's discussing primarily Lithium Ion batteries. That's primarily down to manufacturing cost reductions, rather than any chemistry improvements, which allow smaller (thus cheaper) batteries to hold more charge.

There are improvements to be had, don't get me wrong, but a .5% here, .25% there, not 50% this year, 40% next year, 60% the year after.

The costs - looking at the list price for the Valence U27-36XP battery pack, which is the off the shelf variant of the item used underneath the Class 379 IPEMU with the same voltage and Wh specifications (they were also made by Valence and may be the same battery pack, but I can't confirm) each battery pack comes in at a retail price of £2200 of which there are 20 per pod, 2 pods per module, 3 modules per raft and 2 rafts per train. If we factor in trade pricing and direct purchasing from the manufacturer saving around 25% against RRP, Ian Walmsley's calculations are absolutely bang on the money.
 

OliverS

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Walmsley correctly but perhaps, in my view, over optimistically discounts the cost of the battery for bulk order and continual manufacturing cost reductions, giving a total cost on average of £300,000 for each battery pack. He doesn't explicitly commit but I'd suggest he's also working on manufacturing cost reductions offsetting inflation on the price of the battery packs and they'll remain around the £300k mark for much of their life, which gives a total cost of £2m for batteries alone over the 35 year life expectancy of a new build EMU.

£2m is just slightly more than the total cost for 1 vehicle of an EMU, and it's not a cost that can be written off/depreciated against, the battery pack costs money, 5 years later the next battery pack costs money and so on, there's going to be no discernible decrease in the leasing costs, which work out at something in the region of £17,000 per battery pack per month, going on Ian's figures.


£300,000 over 5 years, i.e. 60 months is £5,000 per month...

The fuel & maintenance bill for the DMU quoted in the article is £8,000 (if I read it correctly, £2,000 per week NOTE this says to me he is cheating, comparing a monthly cost for the IPEMU to a weekly cost for the DMU). So the additional cost of the battery is less than the cost of fuel for the DMU.

Then it comes down to the cost of the train itself and this is where it shows Sudbury is not a good place for IPEMU (again comparing a new IPEMU cost to an old DMU is not entirely reasonable). His point is that it is more expensive to hire a 3 car unit than a 1 car unit, this is no surprise. My conclusion from his numbers is that if you are replacing a 3 car DMU then an IPEMU might be the answer.

You can then put numbers onto full electrification. The additional cost of an IPEMU is £5,000 per month, so if you need two for your service you need a return of £10,000 per month or £120,000 a year. Assume you want 5% return then that means electrification should cost ~£2m or £1m per 3 car unit for the service. This excludes any benefit you might gain from through running other electric services.
 

Philip Phlopp

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£300,000 over 5 years, i.e. 60 months is £5,000 per month...

The fuel & maintenance bill for the DMU quoted in the article is £8,000 (if I read it correctly, £2,000 per week NOTE this says to me he is cheating, comparing a monthly cost for the IPEMU to a weekly cost for the DMU). So the additional cost of the battery is less than the cost of fuel for the DMU.

Then it comes down to the cost of the train itself and this is where it shows Sudbury is not a good place for IPEMU (again comparing a new IPEMU cost to an old DMU is not entirely reasonable). His point is that it is more expensive to hire a 3 car unit than a 1 car unit, this is no surprise. My conclusion from his numbers is that if you are replacing a 3 car DMU then an IPEMU might be the answer.

You can then put numbers onto full electrification. The additional cost of an IPEMU is £5,000 per month, so if you need two for your service you need a return of £10,000 per month or £120,000 a year. Assume you want 5% return then that means electrification should cost ~£2m or £1m per 3 car unit for the service. This excludes any benefit you might gain from through running other electric services.

The 3 car IPEMU comparison is there for a reason - Walmsley reckons it's the shortest formation EMU you could have with battery power (other than going for a battery electric unit with no 25kV AC or 750V DC capability). Two cars without batteries, three if you're going to find a home for 8 to 12 tonnes of batteries, basically.

I will say that in one respect, the figures have a couple of inherent issues - a 3 car EMU is not the most cost effective way to buy a unit. Driving vehicles are substantially more expensive than trailers, so in a 4 car EMU, you'll be paying an average of £1.5m per vehicle, but for a 3 car IPEMU it's closer to £2m per vehicle plus the £2m for the battery packs over the life of the vehicle, and a 3 car DMU with comparable capacity would come in considerably more expensive than a near 30 year old Class 153 or Class 156.

The intention would be for the battery pack to be leased as part of the unit itself, almost as if it's a fourth vehicle in the unit, which is where you get the cost of £17,000 per month in leasing charges for the battery, all wrapped up in the overall cost of the unit at £8m and monthly leasing cost of £68,000

It does, initially, seem steep as it costs the ROSCO £5k per month (plus their own debt financing costs) for the battery pack, but the ROSCO (and insurers) would be taking some risk on the battery packs - they're only guaranteed against defective material and workmanship, with no guarantee given concerning the actual life expectancy or charge retention capabilities.

Damage, component failure away from the battery itself and all sorts of run of the mill stuff that happens day in, day out on the railway would see a number of battery packs sent back to the manufacturer before the 5 year period is out. No question about it, but that's the risks that the ROSCO has to bear.

Doing some calculations on the cost of leasing the battery packs, replacing them 5 yearly, saving fuel costs, adding track access charges, working in the cost of diesel engines instead, I reckon, for new build DMU v EMU, battery packs are around double the cost they need to be, for the business case to stack up, maybe a reduction of 40% to 45% would swing things towards IPEMU for new build.

It's definitely not the answer for delayed electrification though, as is being talked about for the Class 387s for Great Western.
 

OliverS

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The intention would be for the battery pack to be leased as part of the unit itself, almost as if it's a fourth vehicle in the unit, which is where you get the cost of £17,000 per month in leasing charges for the battery, all wrapped up in the overall cost of the unit at £8m and monthly leasing cost of £68,000

It does, initially, seem steep as it costs the ROSCO £5k per month (plus their own debt financing costs) for the battery pack, but the ROSCO (and insurers) would be taking some risk on the battery packs - they're only guaranteed against defective material and workmanship, with no guarantee given concerning the actual life expectancy or charge retention capabilities.

The problem with this accounting is that the battery pack life may not be based on time but on usage, i.e. it is more analogous to fuel cost than to unit life. I suspect that the testing of the batteries in this and other environments will clarify things and the eventual pricing will reflect that.

But yes the simple write-off of the cost of the battery is not the only cost to the ROSCO.

Doing some calculations on the cost of leasing the battery packs, replacing them 5 yearly, saving fuel costs, adding track access charges, working in the cost of diesel engines instead, I reckon, for new build DMU v EMU, battery packs are around double the cost they need to be, for the business case to stack up, maybe a reduction of 40% to 45% would swing things towards IPEMU for new build.

It's definitely not the answer for delayed electrification though, as is being talked about for the Class 387s for Great Western.

Assuming the £8,000 fuel and maintenance cost saving from the article and the £17,000 cost similarly then your 45% seems reasonable. However that £8,000 was for a smaller unit. I'm not sure how that cost scales to a 3 or 4 car DMU.

There may be additional infrastructure changes where IPEMU allows the removal of Diesel maintenance facilities that would tilt the numbers towards IPEMU, but I agree that IPEMU is not the magic bullet, but rather it may allow savings in certain circumstances. Sudbury is not one, nor is Great Western for different reasons.

I'm willing to hope for a reduction in the price of battery technology, be it from new chemistry or from manufacturing improvements. But 45% does seem a little optimistic.
 

SpacePhoenix

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For some routes by the time that you pay for the extra batteries and the infrastructure to charge them at one end of the line it might be just as cheap to just bite the bullet and install overhead along the entire line.

You also need to factor in the maximum number of charge cycles for the batteries
 

OliverS

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For some routes by the time that you pay for the extra batteries and the infrastructure to charge them at one end of the line it might be just as cheap to just bite the bullet and install overhead along the entire line.

You also need to factor in the maximum number of charge cycles for the batteries

Charge cycles get wrapped up into the lease costs of the unit.

And yes, additional infrastructure for charging the batteries will affect the cost benefit. The best case I can see for IPEMU units is when there is a need for new DMUs and the route is such that there is already significant running under the wires (or with 3rd rail). Combine that with it being the last diesel island and so maximum savings in maintenance infrastructure can be made.

Oh yes, it is a well isolated route so minimum stock is needed (which goes hand in hand with it being a diesel island).

I don't think there are many places where those conditions are met.

My view on the current status of IPEMU is that the technical challenges are now de-risked and understood. It is now possible to propose an IPEMU for a route upgrade, I'm just not sure anyone will.
 

BantamMenace

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Charge cycles get wrapped up into the lease costs of the unit.

And yes, additional infrastructure for charging the batteries will affect the cost benefit. The best case I can see for IPEMU units is when there is a need for new DMUs and the route is such that there is already significant running under the wires (or with 3rd rail). Combine that with it being the last diesel island and so maximum savings in maintenance infrastructure can be made.

Oh yes, it is a well isolated route so minimum stock is needed (which goes hand in hand with it being a diesel island).

I don't think there are many places where those conditions are met.

My view on the current status of IPEMU is that the technical challenges are now de-risked and understood. It is now possible to propose an IPEMU for a route upgrade, I'm just not sure anyone will.

I've banged on on here before about Leeds to Lancaster being the perfect route for such a unit. Ends under wires at both ends to sit and charge and would replace a pacer or 150.
 

pemma

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I've banged on on here before about Leeds to Lancaster being the perfect route for such a unit. Ends under wires at both ends to sit and charge and would replace a pacer or 150.

I'm not sure. When Barrow to Manchester Airport was mentioned there were concerns about how long the train would need to left to recharge at Manchester Airport, before working the next leg. Windermere would probably be ideal if it was not being electrified.

I think battery power would be more suitable for Merseyrail to extend services from Ellesmere Port to Helsby.
 

NotATrainspott

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Are there many places on the network where there are Farnworth tunnel-level obstacles to electrification? The author of the article mentions how the case for discontinuous electrification isn't very good but I would imagine he means the idea of gaps being kilometres long, rather than just the length of a problematic tunnel.
 

LDECRexile

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I live in Southport and recently approached a local politician with a slightly earlier version of the attached Word document. Alas, I hadn't seen Ian Walmsley's cold shower article at the time, nor, indeed, had I found owt at all on the economics. I simply presented this layman's version of the potential.

The politician showed polite interest.

Others may find something interesting, amusing or ridiculous here.

I also attach an early draft bibliography, completely undifferentiated by quality, value or use.

I've put my hard hat on.
 

Attachments

  • Battery Powered Trains 20150731.docx
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  • IPEMUv02.xlsx
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apk55

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Scrap batteries are going to have some value as the active ingredients can be recycled so the costs so the costs of a replacing a battery will be less than a new battery. This might be quite significant if the active ingredients (ie lithium) make up a significant part of the cost of a new battery.
 

OliverS

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Scrap batteries are going to have some value as the active ingredients can be recycled so the costs so the costs of a replacing a battery will be less than a new battery. This might be quite significant if the active ingredients (ie lithium) make up a significant part of the cost of a new battery.


Interesting thought, if it brings the price down by the 40% from Philip in Post 13 then it would swing things towards IPEMU.

It also occurs to me that rather than a reduction in cost of batteries a 10% increase in lifetime would, in effect, be a reduction in price of a similar amount. For instance if the train only needed 6 battery packs not 7 due to a 16% increase in battery life then the price would drop by 14%.
 

snowball

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I've banged on on here before about Leeds to Lancaster being the perfect route for such a unit. Ends under wires at both ends to sit and charge and would replace a pacer or 150.

But while it's sitting and recharging it isn't earning revenue. A much better use for a battery-powered train would be one where it spends at least half its time running under the wires.
 

BantamMenace

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But while it's sitting and recharging it isn't earning revenue. A much better use for a battery-powered train would be one where it spends at least half its time running under the wires.

Between Leeds and Skipton and Carnforth and Lancaster it is running under wires, this isnt far from half of its time.
 

AngusH

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One thing that might make a big difference is the weight of the vehicles, I suspect that if a future battery powered train appears it will be noticeably lighter in weight than non-battery units.

More like a pacer perhaps? :D


Seriously though, I think lightweight units may make something of a comeback, for this and other reasons.
But hopefully with bogies rather than a 4 wheel layout.
 

Argosy

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One thing that might make a big difference is the weight of the vehicles, I suspect that if a future battery powered train appears it will be noticeably lighter in weight than non-battery units.

More like a pacer perhaps? :D


Seriously though, I think lightweight units may make something of a comeback, for this and other reasons.
But hopefully with bogies rather than a 4 wheel layout.

It will also have an impact on train performance, making them slower. On the routes mentioned doesn't the grade have an impact too?
 

absolutelymilk

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I actually meant the case for discontinuous electrification - from what I can gather the majority of the cost of electrification - and most of the disruption caused is from having to rebuild bridges and rebore tunnels so that wires can be put in. Would there not be a case for using batteries to power the train in these parts?
 

furnessvale

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I actually meant the case for discontinuous electrification - from what I can gather the majority of the cost of electrification - and most of the disruption caused is from having to rebuild bridges and rebore tunnels so that wires can be put in. Would there not be a case for using batteries to power the train in these parts?

IMO it is certainly worth considering. In many cases a train could coast through the offending bridge/tunnel and would only need the battery backup should it accidentally come to a stand in the extended neutral section.
 

SpacePhoenix

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For tunnel rebuilding there's always the option of the "overhead rail" if there's enough clearance room for that to save the cost of rebuilding
 

furnessvale

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For tunnel rebuilding there's always the option of the "overhead rail" if there's enough clearance room for that to save the cost of rebuilding

Indeed, but that option will always be seriously considered if there is the room.

I think the options now being looked at are AFTER the fixed rail has been discounted.
 
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