BBC News Article - Rail industry urges workers not to spurn the train

[Ianno87]

A way of working for *some* people.

Those who cannot or do not want to work from home are sick of hearing about it, especially when for many it boils down to because they can’t be bothered to commute.

Or not waste time (precious hours of one's finite life span) commuting every single day when it is simply not necessary to perform one's job effectively.

 

[Robertj21a]

Dunno what your source is. From the outside there seems to be a lot of commitment: HS2 in progress, local line and station (re)openings, even electrification back on the agenda. Perhaps supporters seem less vocal because there is less need to protest in favour of train travel these days?

All of that was planned months and years ago!
Anybody who believes that the rail industry is still as popular as it once was is living in cloud cuckoo land. Get the reliabilty up, prices down, focus on the customer - then there may be a glimmer of hope.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I have said before, for me rail just about completes with the convenience of using the car if I can find a cheap day return fare, use some kind of fares loophole or split tickets. My car doesn’t charge me extra break my journey, not specify my exact travel times in advance, stay away overnight or travel back by a different route. Rail often charges considerably more to do these things, even though it costs the railway nothing extra. For me and many travellers a train ticket is a distress purchase. It should not be that way.

And then there is the competition from electric cars. Some people use the train over a car out of concern for damaging the environment. Now with so-called zero-emissions cars becoming the norm, a lot of that guilt has been removed. The railway is in serious trouble.

 

[MattRat]

Dunno what your source is. From the outside there seems to be a lot of commitment: HS2 in progress, local line and station (re)openings, even electrification back on the agenda. Perhaps supporters seem less vocal because there is less need to protest in favour of train travel these days?

Well I think it also might partly becuase the government wants to make GBR look good. I'm sure after all the fanfare has died down, you'll find the money for such projects suddenly dry up.

 

[Ianno87]

I have said before, for me rail just about completes with the convenience of using the car if I can find a cheap day return fare, use some kind of fares loophole or split tickets. My car doesn’t charge me extra break my journey, not specify my exact travel times in advance, stay away overnight or travel back by a different route. Rail often charges considerably more to do these things, even though it costs the railway nothing extra.

For many travellers a train ticket is a distress purchace.

Cars get stuck in traffic. Driving in traffic is precious hours of your life wasted.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Is it me, or I feel like a lot of posters here are almost celebrating the situation the railway industry is currently in. Just seems unsesecarily malicious. I agree the industry defintley has some big issues, mainly around ticket prices that need sorting out.

However, most people I speak to like travelling by train and would much prefer to take the train, than drive. Its mainly cost putting people off using the train more.

And where has this narrative that the roads are the way forward come from, that's not the narrative I'm getting the impression of, particularly from the younger generation of people.

 

[pdq]

Cars get stuck in traffic. Driving in traffic is precious hours of your life wasted

Indeed, which is where price + usual journey time + convenience/stress + frequency of commute all come into play when deciding on the most appropriate mode of transport.

 

[ivorytoast28]

With the upsurge in recent years of budget airlines and domestic services you don't have to look far to see why that may be one of the main reasons for this. You only have to look at flightradar24 to see how many internal flights are taking place at any given moment during the day. Had Flybe not gone under they might have made a killing on flights from places like Cornwall to the capital given GWR's horrendous pricing and poor quality trains.

Obviously a pipe dream but if the government are serious about climate commitments, banning domestic mainland flights would not harm them in any way and would get those passengers onto trains at least. Seems an easy win

 

[squizzler]

As a forum,

Is it me, or I feel like a lot of posters here are almost celebrating the situation the railway industry is currently in. Just seems unsesecarily malicious. I agree the industry definitely has some big issues, mainly around ticket prices that need sorting out.

However, most people I speak to like travelling by train and would much prefer to take the train, than drive. Its mainly cost putting people off using the train more.

And where has this narrative that the roads are the way forward come from, that's not the narrative I'm getting the impression of, particularly from the younger generation of people.

I said it before, the forum does tend to come across as a collective of “Grumpy Old Men”. I don't think we are representative of rail enthusiasts generally, never mind public sentiment in the "real world".

Presumably the younger people mentioned in your last paragraph have moved onto WNXX, some Discord server or rail-fan pages on mainstream "social media".

 

[Master29]

Or not waste time (precious hours of one's finite life span) commuting every single day when it is simply not necessary to perform one's job effectively.

Quite a lot of this "working from home" buzz being touted as the new way of life which for most it won't be.

Obviously a pipe dream but if the government are serious about climate commitments, banning domestic mainland flights would not harm them in any way and would get those passengers onto trains at least. Seems an easy win

An easy win for whom? banning internal flights and putting them on slow and extortionate rail services? Yes, I'm sure that's a big win. We have a poor rail infrastructure in the main in the UK so it isn't going to work, certainly not with most of the currently poor new stock that we have.

 

[Robertj21a]

Cars get stuck in traffic. Driving in traffic is precious hours of your life wasted.

Surely, it depends where you are driving ?
I often drive hundreds of miles every week and rarely get stuck in traffic. We don't all attempt to drive into city centres.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

As a forum,

I said it before, the forum does tend to come across as a collective of “Grumpy Old Men”. I don't think we are representative of rail enthusiasts generally, never mind public sentiment in the "real world".

Presumably the younger people mentioned in your last paragraph have moved onto WNXX, some Discord server or rail-fan pages on mainstream "social media".

I'm more talking about young people in general who see cars as bad for the environment. But yes I do defintley agree with your overall view of the forum. Some of the time it does come across like that.

I know our railways don't have a great repuation regardless, which need to be worked on to be improved, but I don't think the people who actually use the railways view it as badly as some forum members here.

 

[Iskra]

I'm more talking about young people in general who see cars as bad for the environment. But yes I do defintley agree with your overall view of the forum. Some of the time it does come across like that.

I know our railways don't have a great repuation regardless, which need to be worked on to be improved, but I don't think the people who actually use the railways view it as badly as some forum members here.

Twitter is full of complaining rail passengers every single day. They can’t all be forum members!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Twitter is full of complaining rail passengers every single day. They can’t all be forum members!

I did say I don't think the railways have a good repuation. But then again you do also have to consider that someone that had a good journey isn't going to tweet about it.

 

[Dannys]

A someone who is/was a rail commuter, and also someone with an interest in the rail industry, I thought I would throw my tuppence in this discussion for a change.

I would summerise the issue in that the "off peak is the new peak".

I have observed that trains are generally quiet until 9.30 - at which point they are getting busier (and more so each week). I used to be in the office for 8 every day, I now work from home a couple of hours, and catch the first offpeak trains whenever I can - its cheaper to do this than an 8 in 28 ticket which is priced between the Anytime day, and Off peak day return (and feels like a rip off to me, and many others - and also commented on by quite a few in the article).

Surely this just boils down to Supply/Demand. Demand is there before 9.30, but the price of anytime tickets mean is prohibitive for all but those who need to travel at that time (which is now, hardly anyone). The easy answer is to get rid of the Anytime fares and make the CDR/SVR valid all day - not sure who's going to pay for it though.

I have also noticed that people who have a car, and now choosing to drive all the way, rather than park and use the train. Could removing parking fee's from some stations help make the train more attractive again? Take Retford to Sheffield commuter, It would cost £10 to park at Retford for the day, plus the train fare. It would cost my £7 to park in Sheffield city centre for 10 hours (or £4.50 at a park and ride site near by), plus around £5 for petrol, including a bit for wear and tear. All things considered, if you have a car, its probably cheaper to drive (London excluded) - and thats before you start comparing a door to door drive, or every 10 minutes park and ride service with the hourly northern service on that route.

 

[John Bishop]

With the Green agenda coming to the fore of Government policy and action, the UK railway HAS to perform and deliver. I see no way round the Government having to support and enhance the offering.

Domestic air travel will be coming under increasing scrutiny as will the roads in and around cities. The Green push can only be of future benefit to the Industry as a whole. I do however see a shake up in the short term to at least appear to be doing something. Unions will have to make allowances for the current financial situation we‘re in and relinquish some control.

Interesting times ahead!

 

[Horizon22]

Twitter is full of complaining rail passengers every single day. They can’t all be forum members!

Twitter is full of people complaining about any service every day.

A someone who is/was a rail commuter, and also someone with an interest in the rail industry, I thought I would throw my tuppence in this discussion for a change.

I would summerise the issue in that the "off peak is the new peak".

I have observed that trains are generally quiet until 9.30 - at which point they are getting busier (and more so each week). I used to be in the office for 8 every day, I now work from home a couple of hours, and catch the first offpeak trains whenever I can - its cheaper to do this than an 8 in 28 ticket which is priced between the Anytime day, and Off peak day return (and feels like a rip off to me, and many others - and also commented on by quite a few in the article).

Surely this just boils down to Supply/Demand. Demand is there before 9.30, but the price of anytime tickets mean is prohibitive for all but those who need to travel at that time (which is now, hardly anyone). The easy answer is to get rid of the Anytime fares and make the CDR/SVR valid all day - not sure who's going to pay for it though.

I have also noticed that people who have a car, and now choosing to drive all the way, rather than park and use the train. Could removing parking fee's from some stations help make the train more attractive again? Take Retford to Sheffield commuter, It would cost £10 to park at Retford for the day, plus the train fare. It would cost my £7 to park in Sheffield city centre for 10 hours (or £4.50 at a park and ride site near by), plus around £5 for petrol, including a bit for wear and tear. All things considered, if you have a car, its probably cheaper to drive (London excluded) - and thats before you start comparing a door to door drive, or every 10 minutes park and ride service with the hourly northern service on that route.

Yep the off-peak / peak differential certainly needs looking at, and fast. No point the railway having peak trains that nobody will travel on because its too expensive, even though the demand is there.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I did say I don't think the railways have a good repuation. But then again you do also have to consider that someone that had a good journey isn't going to tweet about it.

You just contradict yourself. You say everybody you know likes travelling by train and then when someone points out not everybody does you admit the railway doesn’t have a good reputation. Why do you think the railway doesn’t have a good reputation? It isn’t because everybody enjoys travelling by train.

 

[6Gman]

Cars get stuck in traffic. Driving in traffic is precious hours of your life wasted.

And carries a statistically higher risk of ending your life.

If I've had a long day out allowing someone else to complete the bulk of the journey home is a big factor to me.

 

[Master29]

With the Green agenda coming to the fore of Government policy and action, the UK railway HAS to perform and deliver. I see no way round the Government having to support and enhance the offering.

Domestic air travel will be coming under increasing scrutiny as will the roads in and around cities. The Green push can only be of future benefit to the Industry as a whole. I do however see a shake up in the short term to at least appear to be doing something. Unions will have to make allowances for the current financial situation we‘re in and relinquish some control.

Interesting times ahead!

All very well but the railways will still need massive infrastructural investment if it can compete with other modes of transport which sadly in the UK has been neglected by successive governments for years.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

You just contradict yourself. You say everybody you know likes travelling by train and then when someone points out not everybody does you admit the railway doesn’t have a good reputation. Why do you think the railway doesn’t have a good reputation? It isn’t because everybody enjoys travelling by train.

How have I contraticted myself. Everybody I know is different to everyone in general. Everyone I know happens to like travelling by train, but I din't know that many people and there are a lot of people I don't know and I know for a fact most of them will have issues with the railways. Although again, lots of them won't use the railway regularly. But my point was more about the glee certain forum members seem to have in seeing the industry in its current situation due to covid.

 

[MattRat]

As a forum,

I said it before, the forum does tend to come across as a collective of “Grumpy Old Men”. I don't think we are representative of rail enthusiasts generally, never mind public sentiment in the "real world".

Presumably the younger people mentioned in your last paragraph have moved onto WNXX, some Discord server or rail-fan pages on mainstream "social media".

I'm a younger person (24). Although, I have also been called a boomer.....

 

[Ianno87]

And carries a statistically higher risk of ending your life.

This. In spades.

 

[sd0733]

Try taking away the local rail service and I suspect you'll find its every bit as contentious as trying to close the local school or hospital.

I'd hope you are right
Now should be the time that rail is really pushed forward with electrification, modernisation and decarbonising not pricing more and more traffic to less clean modes of transport on roads and in the air.

I think theres a real opportunity to 'move the market' somewhat onto the regional lines but this needs attractive fares and offers to get people to try the train, pushing what's currently a non existent commuter market isn't particularly going to get results.

The demographic now travelling does seem to skew towards the younger generation which is promising, as much as the environmental reasons its also much easier to keep on phones, tablets, social media etc than driving or flying.

Much could be done and needs to be but sticking with anytime fares, poor value seasons and expensive parking isn't doing anyone any favours.
The mask "dilemma" doesn't seem to help looking at the comments on the BBC site, a fair amount wont travel with a mask on whilst a seemingly not far off equal amount wont travel while theres no enforcement, both sides seem to be under the impression its still mandatory to a degree

 

[cactustwirly]

A way of working for *some* people.

Those who cannot or do not want to work from home are sick of hearing about it, especially when for many it boils down to because they can’t be bothered to commute.

People are going to the offices as well. Why else is there traffic in the roads at peak times.
They are not traveling by train at the moment because it isn't convenient enough or value for money.

Cars get stuck in traffic. Driving in traffic is precious hours of your life wasted.

But so is waiting ages for a train because it is inconveniently timed, or you need to take a connection...

 

[WestRiding]

After reading the comments of the BBC article, it seems a lot of people will simply not return, because they THINK you still have to wear a mask (in England). You do not have to, but having to wear a mask until recently was what stopped me using rail.

 

[Roast Veg]

An easy win for whom? banning internal flights and putting them on slow and extortionate rail services? Yes, I'm sure that's a big win. We have a poor rail infrastructure in the main in the UK so it isn't going to work, certainly not with most of the currently poor new stock that we have.

"Poor" new stock that compares quite favourably with the poor domestic aircraft available imo. Codesharing removes the cost factor - it just becomes part of your ticket.

 

[Randomer]

I'd be very interested to see the data for commuters for routes into London vs. the other major cities. Not sure if is published anywhere in the public domain, a quick search hasn't come up with anything.

I strongly suspect the biggest loss in numbers is around the number of people on the "commuter" TOC going into London. From various friends and acquaintances who commute in different regions there certainly seems to be a much stronger return of demand for some cities e.g. Leeds than seems to be the case in London. Alternatively it might be that the trains seem busier because they were consistently running below the necessary capacity and are now merely busy rather than heavily loaded like used to occur in the past.

 

[Robertj21a]

This. In spades.

........but still a decidedly minute risk. Massively overridden by the convenience.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd be very interested to see the data for commuters for routes into London vs. the other major cities. Not sure if is published anywhere in the public domain, a quick search hasn't come up with anything.

I strongly suspect the biggest loss in numbers is around the number of people on the "commuter" TOC going into London. From various friends and acquaintances who commute in different regions there certainly seems to be a much stronger return of demand for some cities e.g. Leeds than seems to be the case in London. Alternatively it might be that the trains seem busier because they were consistently running below the necessary capacity and are now merely busy rather than heavily loaded like used to occur in the past.

The obvious difference is that London commutes are, on average, considerably longer and more expensive than other cities. Therefore WFH (at least partially) is considerably more advantageous to a typical London commuter than it is to a typical commuter into other cities.