Beattock Landslip disruption (21/02)

[Jan Mayen]

The 07.30 Euston-Glsgow yesterday (Friday) ran in "reverse formation".

Visions of the train being driven in reverse all the way...

 

[GordonT]

They should have canned S25 and M16 too.

1M16 in the slightly surreal scenario of currently traversing north London towards Euston with 1M06 which was started 14 late from Preston vice Glasgow Central at 0815 currently running literally a minute or two behind it.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The 07.30 Euston-Glsgow yesterday (Friday) ran in "reverse formation".

The Avanti journey check I was using yesterday afternoon whilst all this escalated was advising one or two trains in the disruption which were going to terminate short at Preston would be in reverse formation.

 

[Carlisle]

It's not particularly uncommon - the 09:15 Manchester to Euston was in reverse formation yesterday

Indeed particularly after diversions or disruption there’s probably not always sufficient time or manpower available overnight to ensure every set is in correct formation for next day.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

As explained repeatedly by various contributors when this issue has cropped up on (multiple) threads before, the main reasoning for not running north of Preston as far as Carlisle stems from Avanti (and Virgin before them) giving primacy to maintaining the integrity of the (much busier) Preston-London section of route given that they have neither sufficient sets nor traincrew available at Preston or South thereof to run Preston-London AND cover Preston-Carlisle on those occasions when Glasgow-based drivers are trapped (along with sets) in their own country and unable to make their normal contribution to the Carlisle-Preston section.

So being slightly tongue in cheek, we're not "important" customers, despite paying more for tickets and having fewer options than those south of Preston?

Cam I point out that unlike "normal" disruption where there's no service from the start of the day, on this occasion there were Pendos and crews scattered around Carlisle and towards Beattock that could have been used on a shuttle.

Hopefully when GBR gets into swing, they'll look at what options there are to make things work a little easier - perhaps the "Avanti" keep running Euston-Preston, and "TPE" run Preston - as far north as possible, given the Manchester Airport and Lime Street bits of the route are covered by Northern. It'll never work, it's too sensible I know... And should probably be in a speculative thread. Sorry Mods!

 

[paul1609]

So being slightly tongue in cheek, we're not "important" customers, despite paying more for tickets and having fewer options than those south of Preston?

Cam I point out that unlike "normal" disruption where there's no service from the start of the day, on this occasion there were Pendos and crews scattered around Carlisle and towards Beattock that could have been used on a shuttle.

Hopefully when GBR gets into swing, they'll look at what options there are to make things work a little easier - perhaps the "Avanti" keep running Euston-Preston, and "TPE" run Preston - as far north as possible, given the Manchester Airport and Lime Street bits of the route are covered by Northern. It'll never work, it's too sensible I know... And should probably be in a speculative thread. Sorry Mods!

It's not that you are unimportant, it's just that there aren't very many of you compared to the Preston to London section. If you look at the Orr entry and exit figures it must surely be obvious that once you lose through services to the central belt the tpe services are adequate for the business on offer for the Preston to Carlisle section with a change at Preston for London.
The M6 has a similar traffic profile.

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps one for the fares and advice thread, however I was booked on a 7am PRE-EDB. When I got up this morning the advice was still DO NOT TRAVEL and they were advising this until 9am. This meant I had to abandon plans, but it looks like my service was not cancelled and did run. Can I claim a refund?

Did you take a screenshot of where it said your intended train was cancelled? Always wise to do so if there's any doubt about possible disruption.

 

[Pacef8]

You have to feel for the avanti passengers trying to get to london . A service south at lancaster has just been cancelled from glasgow .

 

[AndrewE]

You have to feel for the avanti passengers trying to get to london . A service south at lancaster has just been cancelled from glasgow .

A "Class 9" (via Brum) which is the only northern WCML service which calls at Crewe (for Salop & Wales, Stoke & E midlands etc. as well as Brum.) Do they put an extra stop in the Warrington - Euston direct service? Of course not...
Don't worry, there are other services to London, via Manc for example...

 

[philthetube]

how was this landslide discovered?

 

[trainophile]

how was this landslide discovered?

I was wondering that. Presumably not by a train hurtling into it, thank goodness.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

It's not that you are unimportant, it's just that there aren't very many of you compared to the Preston to London section. If you look at the Orr entry and exit figures it must surely be obvious that once you lose through services to the central belt the tpe services are adequate for the business on offer for the Preston to Carlisle section with a change at Preston for London.
The M6 has a similar traffic profile.

Those entry and exit figures don't feel right based on experience - although that might be a factor of the time of day I'm travelling, where a more normal experience is busy leaving Euston, busier Warrington to Preston, a bit quieter Preston northwards. There's usually more than enough to fill a 397, though. Last time it happened around 40 of us were left on the platform at Preston waiting an hour for the next TPE, with no guarantee that we'd get on the next one until Avanti kindly delayed their next service!

 

[Horizon22]

I was wondering that. Presumably not by a train hurtling into it, thank goodness.

Probably a train on the other line reporting it.

 

[Falcon1200]

it must surely be obvious that once you lose through services to the central belt the tpe services are adequate for the business on offer for the Preston to Carlisle section with a change at Preston for London.

As a regular traveller on the WCML that is very much not my experience, at all; Most TPE services are busy with their own passengers, never mind taking Avanti's loadings too.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

how was this landslide discovered?

Reported by a Driver who stopped short of it.

 

[philthetube]

thanks

 

[43096]

As explained repeatedly by various contributors when this issue has cropped up on (multiple) threads before, the main reasoning for not running north of Preston as far as Carlisle stems from Avanti (and Virgin before them) giving primacy to maintaining the integrity of the (much busier) Preston-London section of route given that they have neither sufficient sets nor traincrew available at Preston or South thereof to run Preston-London AND cover Preston-Carlisle on those occasions when Glasgow-based drivers are trapped (along with sets) in their own country and unable to make their normal contribution to the Carlisle-Preston section.

And how often are all the Glasgow starting trains and crews neatly trapped north of Carlisle? I'd bet that is pretty much only going to happen if it is at very start of service.

And how many Preston crews are rostered north of Preston? Or are you telling us they are only diagrammed to work south from Preston?

Because at any one time you would expect there to be roughly enough trains and crews south of Carlisle to run a Euston-Carlisle service.

It's not that you are unimportant, it's just that there aren't very many of you compared to the Preston to London section. If you look at the Orr entry and exit figures it must surely be obvious that once you lose through services to the central belt the tpe services are adequate for the business on offer for the Preston to Carlisle section with a change at Preston for London.
The M6 has a similar traffic profile.

That is way too scientific. We all know it is the MDTR* simply thinks it is too difficult and too much effort to generate a contingency plan and then implement it. And to be blunt it is utterly unacceptable.

* Modern, Dynamic, Thrusting Railway. It's a (very) ironic term.

 

[aar0]

Would it not be possible to run a single Pendolino non stop to Carlisle to take all the Carlisle passengers?

 

[paul1609]

Those entry and exit figures don't feel right based on experience - although that might be a factor of the time of day I'm travelling, where a more normal experience is busy leaving Euston, busier Warrington to Preston, a bit quieter Preston northwards. There's usually more than enough to fill a 397, though. Last time it happened around 40 of us were left on the platform at Preston waiting an hour for the next TPE, with no guarantee that we'd get on the next one until Avanti kindly delayed their next service!

Isn't that exactly the issue though in times of disruption 40 passengers is a road coach 90 miles up a lightly trafficked motorway not a 600 seat, 11 coach Pendolino if that is needed for the London service?

 

[AndrewE]

Isn't that exactly the issue though in times of disruption 40 passengers is a road coach 90 miles up a lightly trafficked motorway not a 600 seat, 11 coach Pendolino if that is needed for the London service?

but there is no need to increase resources S of Preston, there will be 2 arrivals from the south every hour... It's odds-on that the majority of the stock (and crews) will be South of the blockage so there shouldn't be any problem using a small proportion of them to maintain some sort of a service N of there.

The agreement not to make more than 1 return trip over a line is completely inexplicable. I'm surprised anybody had the nerve to even ask for it!

 

[Falcon1200]

It's odds-on that the majority of the stock (and crews) will be South of the blockage so there shouldn't be any problem using a small proportion of them to maintain some sort of a service N of there.

I agree. IMHO just one, or possibly two, sets and crews should provide a shuttle between Preston and Carlisle (or Lockerbie, if possible), these being provided by cancelling West Midlands services and putting stops on the remaining Euston trains at Stafford for connections to Birmingham etc. I understand the reasons for protecting the service south of Preston but this cannot be at the expense of total abandonment of the service northwards.

 

[CoachB]

What I found rather interesting this time was that they actually used the crossover on the north side of Lockerbie station to move the trains from the down line onto the up line to return them to Carlisle.

Because they were already doing this they could of ran Avanti/TPX trains all the way to Lockerbie with bus connections to Glasgow & Edinburgh from Lockerbie. However as per usual Lockerbie station is immediately forgot about once any disruption starts. Avanti & TPX didn't give two hoots about people travelling to Lockerbie forcing them to find their own way there with no help from them at all initially (unsure if this changed when busses were put on later)

 

[The Planner]

What I found rather interesting this time was that they actually used the crossover on the north side of Lockerbie station to move the trains from the down line onto the up line to return them to Carlisle.

Because they were already doing this they could of ran Avanti/TPX trains all the way to Lockerbie with bus connections to Glasgow & Edinburgh from Lockerbie. However as per usual Lockerbie station is immediately forgot about once any disruption starts. Avanti & TPX didn't give two hoots about people travelling to Lockerbie forcing them to find their own way there with no help from them at all initially (unsure if this changed when busses were put on later)

They must have got a MOM on the ground there, as the Lockerbie crossovers aren't signaled.

 

[Efini92]

I agree. IMHO just one, or possibly two, sets and crews should provide a shuttle between Preston and Carlisle (or Lockerbie, if possible), these being provided by cancelling West Midlands services and putting stops on the remaining Euston trains at Stafford for connections to Birmingham etc. I understand the reasons for protecting the service south of Preston but this cannot be at the expense of total abandonment of the service northwards.

It’s not that straightforward though, the southbound services aren’t just Preston crews. Euston, Wolverhampton and Piccadilly all work them as well. There’s no point in cancelling services with crews that don’t go north of Preston.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Isn't that exactly the issue though in times of disruption 40 passengers is a road coach 90 miles up a lightly trafficked motorway not a 600 seat, 11 coach Pendolino if that is needed for the London service?

I think you've misunderstood - not "a road coach" of people travelling north - they were what was waiting to be transported north having been left behind after the rest of the passengers from the 1st pendolino were stuffed onto a TPE 397* because they were running as far as Carlisle, unlike Avanti who abandoned it. The following two Pendolinos disgorged even more passengers, but because the 2nd was delayed, meant that the passengers from the 2nd and 3rd had to catch the same TPE, which can't cope with it's own plus one Pendolino. So now you've got hundreds and hundreds of passengers stuck at Preston, because Avanti won't run a shuttle service and TPE don't have enough room to transport them.

At least those Birmingham passengers got their full ration of Pendos, though.

*According to another thread on RailUK Forums, full and standing capacity on a 397 is around 440, so there were probably ~500 passengers between TPE and Avanti's 0930 Euston-Glasgow service. Repeat that for the next two Pendos, as they both missed the next TPE, and you've potentially got ~1000 passengers to get Northwards. The third TPE can probably mop up 300-400, which leaves you with around 600 waiting, and the next Avanti gets into Preston before any more TPE gets there. What then happens is Avanti throw in the towel and say Do Not Travel so it's not their problem they've dropped 1000s of passengers in Preston with no way home

 

[Taunton]

The agreement not to make more than 1 return trip over a line is completely inexplicable. I'm surprised anybody had the nerve to even ask for it!

I suspect this came from the union bureaucracy, who see it as another way to increase the number of members required to run the service. It's probably a disappointment to some, as it could lead to good mileage and overtime payments.

I'm surprised at the difference between how UK and USA (which I have some experience of) union dues are calculated, and the impact on operations. In the UK it is flat per member, which encourages the maximum number of members, regardless of their pay. In the USA it is a percentage of pay (compared to the UK quite substantial), which encourages the highest overall earnings, regardless of how they are generated.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I suspect this came from the union bureaucracy, who see it as another way to increase the number of members required to run the service. It's probably a disappointment to some, as it could lead to good mileage and overtime payments.

I'd like to think it's less mercenary than that, and was due to concerns about fatigue/attentional issues repeating the same journey multiple times in succession. If it ispurely down to a way to get more members, that's bad form and seems like it benefits only the union who are quite strong enough already I'd suggest...

 

[Dore & Totley]

I suspect this came from the union bureaucracy, who see it as another way to increase the number of members required to run the service. It's probably a disappointment to some, as it could lead to good mileage and overtime payments.

I'm surprised at the difference between how UK and USA (which I have some experience of) union dues are calculated, and the impact on operations. In the UK it is flat per member, which encourages the maximum number of members, regardless of their pay. In the USA it is a percentage of pay (compared to the UK quite substantial), which encourages the highest overall earnings, regardless of how they are generated.

My Unison dues are calculated on the sliding scale depending on the members pay grade

 

[AndrewE]

I'd like to think it's less mercenary than that, and was due to concerns about fatigue/attentional issues repeating the same journey multiple times in succession.

I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face saying that!
What about tube drivers? Maybe they spend the rest of their shifts driving buses...

 

[Taunton]

My Unison dues are calculated on the sliding scale depending on the members pay grade

Yes, but they are flat per pay grade. That's normal (like apprentices' fees are a trivial amount).