Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Deerfold]

Maybe do like in London add a N prefex to each service to simplify things for customers?

In London, where routes are the same at night as in the daytime, they don't use an N prefix - that's only used where there's a variation to the route. They do mark the tiles on bus stops as blue for all services that run nights only or 24 hours. So the 12 is just the 12, all day and night, the 207 extends at both ends overnight as the N207.

 

[mayneway]

The fact that Manchester franchising has almost entirely wiped out small hard working family businesses in favour of large multi national fat cat organisations (as many on the left would call them) is pretty controversial really, especially as it’s all be done by a Labour mayor. I’m surprised more of a stink hasn’t been created.

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

Unless the franchising regime is to onerous for small firms to navigate?

 

[Mollman]

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

I think one of the issues is that these small companies don't have the resources to complete a tender for Franchising and can't afford to pay a consultancy to do it. If you were able to have SME specific lots where by an operator qualifies to bid through a process similar to many authorities frameworks then just need to submit a price I am sure most would have bid to try and retain their existing work.

Whilst there are those who want to have the independence, many SMEs already do contract work with similar specifications (except livery) to Bee Network. The only thing I don't know if if TfGM's contract management regime put some off - there are an awful lot of meetings between TfGM and operators. I guess they would need to employ extra staff to manage the contract and relationships with TfGM, most SME operators are used to getting a contract and getting on with it, only meeting the authority every month if not quarter.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

But part of the problem is the bureaucracy associated with pre-qualifying and tendering for franchises. I think many people on this forum would be amazed by the vast number of policies and procedures required just to be be allowed to bid - very few of them anything to do with running a bus service. Big groups will have specialist bid teams, and back-office experts in many fields. Thry will also be dealing with similar requirements across several authorities so can spread the cost. Jo Bloggs coaches has none of this - thry could of course use consultant(s) but that is a very expensive exercise with no guarantee of winning.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But part of the problem is the bureaucracy associated with pre-qualifying and tendering for franchises. I think many people on this forum would be amazed by the vast number of policies and procedures required just to be be allowed to bid - very few of them anything to do with running a bus service. Big groups will have specialist bid teams, and back-office experts in many fields. Thry will also be dealing with similar requirements across several authorities so can spread the cost. Jo Bloggs coaches has none of this - thry could of course use consultant(s) but that is a very expensive exercise with no guarantee of winning.

Does this signify there is a lot more bureaucracy in bringing in a franchise system than what was the case before?

 

[mangad]

But part of the problem is the bureaucracy associated with pre-qualifying and tendering for franchises. I think many people on this forum would be amazed by the vast number of policies and procedures required just to be be allowed to bid - very few of them anything to do with running a bus service. Big groups will have specialist bid teams, and back-office experts in many fields. Thry will also be dealing with similar requirements across several authorities so can spread the cost. Jo Bloggs coaches has none of this - thry could of course use consultant(s) but that is a very expensive exercise with no guarantee of winning.

Okay, I am going to play devils advocate here, but maybe it's actually a good thing that many smaller companies aren't involved in franchising.

Twenty years ago I lived in South West London. Several of the TfL bus routes where I lived were run by a company called Mitcham Belle.

And crikes, the state of those buses. It was regular to find a written sign in the window saying the ticket machine didn't work. Or the disabled ramp didn't work. Or, even, and this is no joke, doors didn't work.

Whole outfit was a shambles. The state of the vehicles was appalling. Reliability was appalling. They couldn't do what they needed to do. There was rejoicing lovely when Mitcham Belle sold up to a company called Centra. Who failed to solve any of the problems and gave up but the long and short of it was those buses were a mess.

When Sullivens gave up their TfL contracts recently, everything I read about them reminded me of Mitcham Belle.

This is not to say all small operators are bad. Far from it. But smaller companies are often not in position to invest, to provide quality services. The quality TfL, TfGM etal, want. The quality they need to bring people back to the buses. Before they went under, Little Gem's fleet was pretty old and tired looking. D&G are doing TfGM contracts right now with some pretty ancient buses (some of which are ex Go Goodwins from before they sold to Diamond the first time!). Stotts fleet seems fine but they've have had serious staffing issues not long ago.

How would Little Gem have coped with winning a Bee Network franchise? Where would the investment have come from to make the services a better quality?

Maybe this is actually the trade off. That if we are to improve the standard of public transport in our big cities to get people out of their cars, maybe you need big operators with the money and the ability to provide those higher standards.

Because ultimately it doesn't matter what company runs the services. That's pretty irrelevant to the passenger. What matters is that the public get a good service. A great service.

We can wring our hands and say how terrible it is that Stotts will be shutting down. That Little Gem has gone. But meh, as a passenger, what I want is my bus on time and for it not to look like it's about to fall apart at the drop of a hat

 

[Cesarcollie]

Okay, I am going to play devils advocate here, but maybe it's actually a good thing that many smaller companies aren't involved in franchising.

Twenty years ago I lived in South West London. Several of the TfL bus routes where I lived were run by a company called Mitcham Belle.

And crikes, the state of those buses. It was regular to find a written sign in the window saying the ticket machine didn't work. Or the disabled ramp didn't work. Or, even, and this is no joke, doors didn't work.

Whole outfit was a shambles. The state of the vehicles was appalling. Reliability was appalling. They couldn't do what they needed to do. There was rejoicing lovely when Mitcham Belle sold up to a company called Centra. Who failed to solve any of the problems and gave up but the long and short of it was those buses were a mess.

When Sullivens gave up their TfL contracts recently, everything I read about them reminded me of Mitcham Belle.

This is not to say all small operators are bad. Far from it. But smaller companies are often not in position to invest, to provide quality services. The quality TfL, TfGM etal, want. The quality they need to bring people back to the buses. Before they went under, Little Gem's fleet was pretty old and tired looking. D&G are doing TfGM contracts right now with some pretty ancient buses (some of which are ex Go Goodwins from before they sold to Diamond the first time!). Stotts fleet seems fine but they've have had serious staffing issues not long ago.

How would Little Gem have coped with winning a Bee Network franchise? Where would the investment have come from to make the services a better quality?

Maybe this is actually the trade off. That if we are to improve the standard of public transport in our big cities to get people out of their cars, maybe you need big operators with the money and the ability to provide those higher standards.

Because ultimately it doesn't matter what company runs the services. That's pretty irrelevant to the passenger. What matters is that the public get a good service. A great service.

We can wring our hands and say how terrible it is that Stotts will be shutting down. That Little Gem has gone. But meh, as a passenger, what I want is my bus on time and for it not to look like it's about to fall apart at the drop of a hat

You are being very selective! There are some extremely good independent operators out there who make some of the big group operators look like cowboys! Delaine? Lynx Bus? Falcon? Compare those with……certain big groups who shall remain nameless but appear a lot on this forum! There are also many ‘average’ SME’s who are no worse than the ‘average’ of the big groups.

 

[Mollman]

Because ultimately it doesn't matter what company runs the services. That's pretty irrelevant to the passenger. What matters is that the public get a good service. A great service.

We can wring our hands and say how terrible it is that Stotts will be shutting down. That Little Gem has gone. But meh, as a passenger, what I want is my bus on time and for it not to look like it's about to fall apart at the drop of a hat

True but when part of the sales pitch for Franchising was about big companies taking profits, it looks a bit hypocritical that franchising involves only one successful local company (Vision) and one UK based PLC (Rotala) with the majority of payments (which will include a profit margin) being made to overseas owned companies.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

True but when part of the sales pitch for Franchising was about big companies taking profits, it looks a bit hypocritical that franchising involves only one successful local company (Vision) and one UK based PLC (Rotala) with the majority of payments (which will include a profit margin) being made to overseas owned companies.

Isn't First based in Aberdeen, Stagecoach based in Perth (Scotland) and Go-Ahead in Newcastle?
From what I can see of the franchisees, only Metroline (owned by ComfortDelGro based in Singapore) isn't British.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

True but when part of the sales pitch for Franchising was about big companies taking profits, it looks a bit hypocritical that franchising involves only one successful local company (Vision) and one UK based PLC (Rotala) with the majority of payments (which will include a profit margin) being made to overseas owned companies.

Wherever companies are based, a profit margin is the norm to keep solvency. No normal company can be expected to exist if loss-making.

 

[SLC001]

Stagecoach is owned by a German investment company, Go Ahead by a Spanish and Australian firm. Where they are based in the UK is totally irrelevant. First are owned by shareholders who can be UK based or overseas. All want a decent return on their investment by way of dividends which means these firms must make a "reasonable" profit.
As for smaller companies bidding, was it Sullivans in London who found to their cost that franchising is not easy and that towards the end of the franchise they found that their initial estimates of costs (7 years ahead?) were wrong. They didn't have the financial resources to continue and bailed out. Larger companies are better placed to get it right and have the financial strength to see it through should they get their sums wrong. Delaine has been mentioned as a good operator that could operate franchised services but IIRC in an article in Buses magazine the owner was not a fan of local government involvement in services believing that a small, flexible local firm could better determine what works better. Also a firm like Delaine would probably struggle to get the necessary investment to bid and still retain control of their business.

 

[D9006]

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

As an Ex Transport Manager of a smaller company in Wigan, the paperwork to be accepted to receive the paperwork was vast and had to be duplicated many times. We did not have the resources or spare cash around to man this or spend vast amounts of money to hire in( fees in 5 figures quoted) and in the end no guarantee of work. The bigger companies have a vast array of backroom staff who’s job is to deal with this paperwork daily. we did by putting in plenty additional hours evenings and weekends get accepted to be placed on the list. Tender forms duly sent out, made war and peace seem like a short novel plus ability to work way through jargon designed to confuse and put of the unwary. But did get there in the end and bids submitted. All the tender spec age profiles types of vehicles required seem to have been forgotten now. Age profile on some decker contracts 5 year old at best no more than 8 years old. So this was a smaller operator that fought through the paperwork minefield and no joy

 

[Leedsbusman]

It isn’t particularly clear why school buses couldn’t have been procured differently. For years Stotts et al have submitted a simple daily rate by vehicle capacity and and been awarded resource contracts which TfGM deployed as they saw fit taking into account the areas the operator wishes to cover.

The schools franchise process while much less involved than the large and small ones has a more involved process which seems to have put off smaller operators. Prices look to be similar at around £70-75,000 per bus than before so it’s not as if big firms are undercutting.

 

[D9006]

It isn’t particularly clear why school buses couldn’t have been procured differently. For years Stotts et al have submitted a simple daily rate by vehicle capacity and and been awarded resource contracts which TfGM deployed as they saw fit taking into account the areas the operator wishes to cover.

The schools franchise process while much less involved than the large and small ones has a more involved process which seems to have put off smaller operators. Prices look to be similar at around £70-75,000 per bus than before so it’s not as if big firms are undercutting.

That was the problem, the paperwork even for schoolwork was very complex and time consuming, that price if correct is way above tendering prices, which was 30/40k per annum. Some sen prices for as a low as 25k. 30k was max we put in per bus on the franchised network, nothing doing for us

 

[Leedsbusman]

That was the problem, the paperwork even for schoolwork was very complex and time consuming, that price if correct is way above tendering prices, which was 30/40k per annum. Some sen prices for as a low as 25k. 30k was max we put in per bus on the franchised network, nothing doing for us

I’m surprised you didn’t win at that price! Most resource schools have been over £60k in recent years.

 

[D9006]

I’m surprised you didn’t win at that price! Most resource schools have been over £60k in recent years.

We was extremely surprised, gates closed unfortunately move on

 

[StagecoachBus1]

Is service 356 going to have a similar, early Bee Network takeover, like service 151 did. I ask as on a recent YouTube video I watched, it was mentioned that in the next few weeks Diamond are taking over the 356, just like they did when Stotts could no longer run the 151 due to staffing. Would be helpful if anyone could confirm this, or provide dates of takeover.

 

[Simon Dunn]

True but when part of the sales pitch for Franchising was about big companies taking profits, it looks a bit hypocritical that franchising involves only one successful local company (Vision) and one UK based PLC (Rotala) with the majority of payments (which will include a profit margin) being made to overseas owned companies.

Rotala is no longer a PLC. Rotala is now a privately owned business.

 

[mangad]

I’m surprised you didn’t win at that price! Most resource schools have been over £60k in recent years.

Know nothing about Bee Network but from my own experience in doing procurement, if the price is felt to be too low, alarm bells start ringing...

 

[Rod Harrison]

Have the small family businesses actually actually shown any interest in the franchising system?
I know of a driver who works for one small family firm who reckons they don’t want to be part of it and will look for work outside of it.
Franchising can’t be accused of finishing these small family firms off of they haven’t bid on any of the work.

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

 

[Leedsbusman]

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

The overwhelming vast majority of revenue from foreign owned companies is spent in the UK largely on paying its staff who then spend it again in the economy. Dividend payments are low - and of course reflect the capital injected by the owners.

One could argue a family business owner might use their profits to have a family holiday in Spain which probably doesn’t help the UK either.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

Franchising has already massively helped people, regardless of where a bit of TfGM money goes.

 

[mayneway]

Franchising has already massively helped people, regardless of where a bit of TfGM money goes.

Disagree. The daily bus user on Rochdale road has to date seen no real improvement in bus services but they now have to fork out an additional £8 a week for a weekly ticket. Ironically two of the Rochdale road services (17 & 18) are as hit and miss as they were before franchising due to a huge staffing issue at Oldham depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Is service 356 going to have a similar, early Bee Network takeover, like service 151 did. I ask as on a recent YouTube video I watched, it was mentioned that in the next few weeks Diamond are taking over the 356, just like they did when Stotts could no longer run the 151 due to staffing. Would be helpful if anyone could confirm this, or provide dates of takeover.

Diamond took over the 151 early due to a driver shortage at Stotts. They handed the contract back to TFGM as they couldn’t fulfil it and diamond picked it up early.
The 356 will continue to be operated by Nexus until January 2025.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

It isn’t particularly clear why school buses couldn’t have been procured differently. For years Stotts et al have submitted a simple daily rate by vehicle capacity and and been awarded resource contracts which TfGM deployed as they saw fit taking into account the areas the operator wishes to cover.

The schools franchise process while much less involved than the large and small ones has a more involved process which seems to have put off smaller operators. Prices look to be similar at around £70-75,000 per bus than before so it’s not as if big firms are undercutting.

Stotts keeps popping up as an operator who’s lost out massively to franchising.
The owners are at retirement age and from what’s been said didn’t want to play any part in franchising. While it would have been good to see some small independent operators do well out of franchising TFGM have pretty much finished most of them off long before franchising anyway!

Stotts haven’t really helped themselves. Their refusal to accept card payments and the fact most of their buses have big ‘cash only’ signs in the front windscreen doesn’t look good.

 

[py_megapixel]

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

Comments like this conveniently forget that this is as much as anything else the fault of the regulation that bans local authorities from establishing their own bus operations. No doubt if a fully nationalised operation were permitted, TfGM would be persuing that instead.

It also conveniently forgets that the vast, vast majority of bus services beforehand were provided by, err, Stagecoach, Go-Ahead, First Group and Rotala - evidently more profitably, otherwise they wouldn't have tried to fight it.

Franchising has already massively helped people, regardless of where a bit of TfGM money goes.

That too. A good integrated transport network is one of the most important parts of a city, and the harsh reality is that it will be a lot more positive for the city in the long run than the few remaining independent bus companies (given quite a few of them had already ceased to exist or withdrawn their services beforehand). Of course it doesn't actually spell the end for many of them, as many were coach operations that also did some bus work.

 

[mangad]

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

Being realistic, what would happen if a small company had good a franchise? Someone would have been trying to buy them out in no time!

 

[Leedsbusman]

Stotts keeps popping up as an operator who’s lost out massively to franchising.
The owners are at retirement age and from what’s been said didn’t want to play any part in franchising. While it would have been good to see some small independent operators do well out of franchising TFGM have pretty much finished most of them off long before franchising anyway!

Stotts haven’t really helped themselves. Their refusal to accept card payments and the fact most of their buses have big ‘cash only’ signs in the front windscreen doesn’t look good.

They are just an example - there are plenty of others.
Go North West’s Industrial Relations, Stagecoach and Rotala taking TFGM to court hasn’t held them back!

 

[johncrossley]

Disagree. The daily bus user on Rochdale road has to date seen no real improvement in bus services but they now have to fork out an additional £8 a week for a weekly ticket.

What about the rest of Greater Manchester who didn't have artificially cheap fares on their routes?

Ironically two of the Rochdale road services (17 & 18) are as hit and miss as they were before franchising due to a huge staffing issue at Oldham depot.

I remember that being the case at the start of Tranche 2 but are there still significant cancellations due to staff shortages? Presumably there would be financial penalties if that is the case.

 

[mayneway]

They are just an example - there are plenty of others.
Go North West’s Industrial Relations, Stagecoach and Rotala taking TFGM to court hasn’t held them back!

Disagree completely with your last statement. Stagecoach lost a big chunk of its efficient military operation in return for two troublesome depots.
Diamond if anything have ended up stronger than they were beforehand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

What about the rest of Greater Manchester who didn't have artificially cheap fares on their routes?



I remember that being the case at the start of Tranche 2 but are there still significant cancellations due to staff shortages? Presumably there would be financial penalties if that is the case.

Most of GM had cheaper alternatives to the £21 Anybus weekly. It’s now not the case.

Queens road is 50 drivers short, Oldham is 80 drivers short. On the other side of the franchise fence Stockport had a shockingly big amount of work open today.

Tranche 1 was and still is highly dependent on agency drivers. It’s months now since Burnham made his pledge that agency drivers were temporary and would be phased out, it’s not going to happen.
Most drivers, like me would happily say conditions have actually got worse not better.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Disagree completely with your last statement. Stagecoach lost a big chunk of its efficient military operation in return for two troublesome depots.
Diamond if anything have ended up stronger than they were beforehand.

you might have missed the nuance of the point which was the past isn’t exactly a barrier. Even First - very much the devils incarnate in TfGMs eyes for many years - have won something.