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Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

johncrossley

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30 Mar 2021
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London
I’m pretty certain once Tranche 3 sets in the system one bus only tickets will disappear and only potentially remain for bus and tram or train travel.

This is surely going to be the case as there would be no need for an organisation to agree on how to split revenue. Whilst cross-boundary operators still accept TfGM tickets, they don't get a say in how they are priced.

Does anyone know the reimbursement of ticket acceptance on cross-boundary services works? Presumably they have to be reasonably compensated, but who decides what the formula is and if the operators doesn't like the formula, what (if anything) can they do about it, other than withdraw the service?
 
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Simon75

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This is surely going to be the case as there would be no need for an organisation to agree on how to split revenue. Whilst cross-boundary operators still accept TfGM tickets, they don't get a say in how they are priced.

Does anyone know the reimbursement of ticket acceptance on cross-boundary services works? Presumably they have to be reasonably compensated, but who decides what the formula is and if the operators doesn't like the formula, what (if anything) can they do about it, other than withdraw the service?
Or curtail the service to the GM border (ie when Stagecoach ran the 378 from Stockport to Wilmslow , they curtailed to Grove Lane, near the border of Cheshire (Cheshire East)-
 

pokemonsuper9

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20 Dec 2022
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Greater Manchester
What has changed for the better, under franchising, that couldn't have been done under the previous system?
Pretty much everything that happened after Diamond started throwing their toys out the buggy have been reverted.
Busway service has been massively boosted (most notably V2s running through all day), with the only cost being some unfortunately uncomfortable buses.

Now there's night buses.
Puncuality has increased massively, the new busses are great.

if they were valuable under the old deregulation/subsidy system then they would've been done before, nothing makes now special but franchising.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Pretty much everything that happened after Diamond started throwing their toys out the buggy have been reverted.
Busway service has been massively boosted (most notably V2s running through all day), with the only cost being some unfortunately uncomfortable buses.

Now there's night buses.
Puncuality has increased massively, the new busses are great.

if they were valuable under the old deregulation/subsidy system then they would've been done before, nothing makes now special but franchising.
I’m lost. What did Diamond do with the V2?
 

py_megapixel

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Northern England
Oh, I don't know... several hundred brand new buses and a refurbishment programme for everything else? Increased service frequencies on lots of corridors? Night service on 36 and V1? Complete fare integration across bus services, with better multi-modal integration on the way? An app that actually works properly? (can't speak for all of them but the Stagecoach app at least was pretty useless). The fact that TfGM has just announced a fare decrease, which is almost unheard of in today's economic climate?

And despite the doom-mongering on this forum, the punctuality and lost mileage stats are in fact showing improvements compared to before franchising.
 

D9006

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2019
Messages
196
Location
Wigan
Pretty much everything that happened after Diamond started throwing their toys out the buggy have been reverted.
Busway service has been massively boosted (most notably V2s running through all day), with the only cost being some unfortunately uncomfortable buses.

Now there's night buses.
Puncuality has increased massively, the new busses are great.

if they were valuable under the old deregulation/subsidy system then they would've been done before, nothing makes now special but franchising.
Puncuality increased massively as a driver i can assure you it hasn’t, figures can be made to look bad or good. The traffic roadworks has stayed the same. No attempt has been made to address running times that were unrealistic .The busway has been restored back to pre covid timetable.

The night buses are a drain on resources that should be used to increase some daytime services.

The franchising did not nothing to address the pay and condition of staff which is something they could have address, but as it was a tende process cost had to be kept low in order to win.

I adoptEd a policy of pricing franchise tenders to operate comfortably and pay drivers a decent rate, anyone can price a tender to win it
 

markymark2000

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Western Part of the UK
Busway service has been massively boosted (most notably V2s running through all day), with the only cost being some unfortunately uncomfortable buses.
Wasn't the busway already contracted by TFGM and as such any changes made by First would have had to have been done in agreement with TFGM?

Now there's night buses.
Increased service frequencies on lots of corridors? Night service on 36 and V1?
There were night buses before, they got cut due to low usage. Even so, nothing at all stopped TFGM funding these under deregulation, the same way they funded other tendered buses.

Puncuality has increased massively, the new busses are great.
It really hasn't. It's awful. TFGM will be using very selective figures for this. The lack of information on where their stats come from is pretty telling. For starters I know from speaking to some drivers that they are being told even when running out of service, log into the ticket machine and make it look like the trip ran. Drivers which are running very late are in some cases being told to keep running. Drivers going the wrong way because they aren't route trained, this is being logged as the trip ran (conveniently ignoring the fact the bus has missed areas)
In other cases, late or bunched buses are being taken out of service (seems to depend on the controller) and being ran dead to fill gaps and so while it may seem like everything is more punctual, it's actually just that some buses are less bunched together due to improved regulation. (One of the only good things I am seeing from franchising is some controllers regulating services better rather than letting them run later and later).

Oh, I don't know... several hundred brand new buses and a refurbishment programme for everything else?
You mean like the many buses that Diamond bought when they took over Bolton? Or the many new buses bought by Stagecoach over the past few years.. The franchising lark meant that for a number of years though operators reduced their spending on new fleets. Why spend more money on new fleets only to have everything taken from you in just a few years.

Complete fare integration across bus services, with better multi-modal integration on the way?
System One already existed and had TFGM attempted to work with operators, there could have been multi operator capping through partnership. Exactly as seen in Leicester. Not sure if multi modal would work that way as it's not been done yet, can't see why not though.

An app that actually works properly? (can't speak for all of them but the Stagecoach app at least was pretty useless).
You mean the one that had no live tracking for absolutely months and when it was tracking, it was a shed load of ghost buses which gave the impression a bus was nearby but infact no bus existed? Even so, absolutely NOTHING stopped TFGM creating a big transport app beforehand. They already had the data needed (as they were doing live departures and stuff pre bee network) and if not, the data was all available via Bus Open Data.

The fact that TfGM has just announced a fare decrease, which is almost unheard of in today's economic climate?
The fares are being cut to the level they were before Burnham raised them! He purposely didn't include some fares in his fare cap, let the fares go up, then made it an election pledge to bring them back to the level they were before.

And despite the doom-mongering on this forum, the punctuality and lost mileage stats are in fact showing improvements compared to before franchising.
Figures can be heavily skewed. Especially if one politician has seemed to have based their whole political career around this single policy. If this fails, Burnham has almost nothing else to show for his time as mayor. As we have seen many times with all things political (Not specifically Burnahm a mayor but a general thing), there are cover ups and skewed statistics everywhere.
 

py_megapixel

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Northern England
Puncuality increased massively as a driver i can assure you it hasn’t, figures can be made to look bad or good.
If you can actually explain what specifically you mean by the vague handwavy statement "figures can be made to look bad or good" I might take it seriously. Until then I'll continue to trust the published statistics over anecdotal evidence.

No attempt has been made to address running times that were unrealistic.
That is demonstrably false: there have been several timetable changes to add running time since the franchising scheme started.

The busway has been restored back to pre covid timetable.
Was that forthcoming under First though?

The night buses are a drain on resources that should be used to increase some daytime services.
The fact of the matter is that the 36 and V1 night buses are something that we have now and didn't have beforehand. Whether they are the best use of resources is a matter of opinion, but there is investment there that wasn't there before.

The franchising did not nothing to address the pay and condition of staff which is something they could have address, but as it was a tende process cost had to be kept low in order to win.

I adoptEd a policy of pricing franchise tenders to operate comfortably and pay drivers a decent rate, anyone can price a tender to win it
That is a fair criticism of the way franchises were awarded, yes, but I think it's better directed at general government procurement policy that favours price over all else than specifically at the TfGM scheme.
 

D9006

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28 Aug 2019
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196
Location
Wigan
If you can actually explain what specifically you mean by the vague handwavy statement "figures can be made to look bad or good" I might take it seriously. Until then I'll continue to trust the published statistics over anecdotal evidence.


That is demonstrably false: there have been several timetable changes to add running time since the franchising scheme started.


Was that forthcoming under First though?


The fact of the matter is that the 36 and V1 night buses are something that we have now and didn't have beforehand. Whether they are the best use of resources is a matter of opinion, but there is investment there that wasn't there before.


That is a fair criticism of the way franchises were awarded, yes, but I think it's better directed at general government procurement policy that favours price over all else than specifically at the TfGM scheme.

I very sorry but there have been no increase in running times on services in Wigan to address problems with tight running times that at times are unworkable, now schools are back shall seen them fall down again.

im not going to get into a personal debate about issues we agree and disagree on , the forum is not for that really. You have your opinion I have mine, but the Great Mr Andy Burnham is not the big saviour of buses services in Manchester
 

johncrossley

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I very sorry but there have been no increase in running times on services in Wigan to address problems with tight running times that at times are unworkable, now schools are back shall seen them fall down again.

im not going to get into a personal debate about issues we agree and disagree on , the forum is not for that really. You have your opinion I have mine, but the Great Mr Andy Burnham is not the big saviour of buses services in Manchester
Are there any particular routes that are problematic? We can look on bustimes.org to get a flavour of the punctuality.
 

Djb1

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12 Aug 2021
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Manchester
Are there any particular routes that are problematic? We can look on bustimes.org to get a flavour of the punctuality.
I can't comment on the Wigan routes. However i live on the Southern End of the 41 route. Prior to Bee Network punctuality was horrible. especially Manchester bound from Sale in the evening peak. Longest wait 1 hr 40 minutes around 1700, on a non descript day (ie no rusholme or university events), due to buses running so late they either failed to return from Sale, or turned early at Northenden.

Since Bee Network, reliabilty is remarkably good given that the timetable hasn't really changed, so something must have improved operationally. Although there will probably be issues once Tranche 3 starts, as the 41 currently picks up very few customers between northenden and MRI due to historically being run by the "wrong" south manchester operator.
 

M60lad

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Another thing with 41 which I think helps it keeps to time is the fact it's one of the few or not the only route that does actually follow the evening diversion into Manchester from Rusholme should things get busy round there whereas dependent on the driver normal Stagecoach services will just plough through Rusholme regardless losing time in the process.
 

markymark2000

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Another thing with 41 which I think helps it keeps to time is the fact it's one of the few or not the only route that does actually follow the evening diversion into Manchester from Rusholme should things get busy round there whereas dependent on the driver normal Stagecoach services will just plough through Rusholme regardless losing time in the process.
All that shows is that the Bee Network will pander down to where there is too much traffic rather than address the real issue which is the number of cars and dodgy drivers dumping their cars all over the place We will just move the buses away from that area and stuff everyone who wants to use public transport there.
 

mayneway

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Manchester
Puncuality increased massively as a driver i can assure you it hasn’t, figures can be made to look bad or good. The traffic roadworks has stayed the same. No attempt has been made to address running times that were unrealistic .The busway has been restored back to pre covid timetable.

The night buses are a drain on resources that should be used to increase some daytime services.

The franchising did not nothing to address the pay and condition of staff which is something they could have address, but as it was a tende process cost had to be kept low in order to win.

I adoptEd a policy of pricing franchise tenders to operate comfortably and pay drivers a decent rate, anyone can price a tender to win it
100% agree.
Punctuality has certainly not improved. Late services that would once be adjusted under a commercial operation now run as operators don’t want to risk fines for dropping journeys.

A massive amount of pressure has been put on drivers when the job os already tough enough.
 

Deerfold

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100% agree.
Punctuality has certainly not improved. Late services that would once be adjusted under a commercial operation now run as operators don’t want to risk fines for dropping journeys.
Whereas before journeys would have not run? I know which I prefer as a passenger.

It really hasn't. It's awful. TFGM will be using very selective figures for this. The lack of information on where their stats come from is pretty telling. For starters I know from speaking to some drivers that they are being told even when running out of service, log into the ticket machine and make it look like the trip ran. Drivers which are running very late are in some cases being told to keep running. Drivers going the wrong way because they aren't route trained, this is being logged as the trip ran (conveniently ignoring the fact the bus has missed areas)
In other cases, late or bunched buses are being taken out of service (seems to depend on the controller) and being ran dead to fill gaps and so while it may seem like everything is more punctual, it's actually just that some buses are less bunched together due to improved regulation. (One of the only good things I am seeing from franchising is some controllers regulating services better rather than letting them run later and later).
If that's happening, it sounds like TfGM are being defrauded into paying for mileage that doesn't run as well as generating better figures for that operator. I'd advise getting someone to report it to them.
 
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Djb1

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All that shows is that the Bee Network will pander down to where there is too much traffic rather than address the real issue which is the number of cars and dodgy drivers dumping their cars all over the place We will just move the buses away from that area and stuff everyone who wants to use public transport there.

The Rusholme weekend evening diversion pre-dates Bee Network, and was operating reactively most weekends before it was formalised in the timetable. As an actual user of the route, the diversion (certainly of the 41) was totally the correct thing to do at the time it occurred. Patronage was being decimated by unreliability, i'd often be the only person on the bus and you couldnt predict which road the bus would be on (or if it would pick you up on the diversion). I personally had changed my travel habits to getting the tram followed by a reliable bus home, rather than my direct option. At least now you can plan appropriately.
 

Bletchleyite

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All that shows is that the Bee Network will pander down to where there is too much traffic rather than address the real issue which is the number of cars and dodgy drivers dumping their cars all over the place We will just move the buses away from that area and stuff everyone who wants to use public transport there.

The Bee Network has no control over Greater Manchester Police, who are the ones who need to be in ruthlessly dealing with the gross misuse of motor vehicles that occurs all the time in Rusholme (plus the parking attendants for actual parking offences).
 
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D9006

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Wigan
Wasn't the busway already contracted by TFGM and as such any changes made by First would have had to have been done in agreement with TFGM?



There were night buses before, they got cut due to low usage. Even so, nothing at all stopped TFGM funding these under deregulation, the same way they funded other tendered buses.


It really hasn't. It's awful. TFGM will be using very selective figures for this. The lack of information on where their stats come from is pretty telling. For starters I know from speaking to some drivers that they are being told even when running out of service, log into the ticket machine and make it look like the trip ran. Drivers which are running very late are in some cases being told to keep running. Drivers going the wrong way because they aren't route trained, this is being logged as the trip ran (conveniently ignoring the fact the bus has missed areas)
In other cases, late or bunched buses are being taken out of service (seems to depend on the controller) and being ran dead to fill gaps and so while it may seem like everything is more punctual, it's actually just that some buses are less bunched together due to improved regulation. (One of the only good things I am seeing from franchising is some controllers regulating services better rather than letting them run later and later).


You mean like the many buses that Diamond bought when they took over Bolton? Or the many new buses bought by Stagecoach over the past few years.. The franchising lark meant that for a number of years though operators reduced their spending on new fleets. Why spend more money on new fleets only to have everything taken from you in just a few years.


System One already existed and had TFGM attempted to work with operators, there could have been multi operator capping through partnership. Exactly as seen in Leicester. Not sure if multi modal would work that way as it's not been done yet, can't see why not though.


You mean the one that had no live tracking for absolutely months and when it was tracking, it was a shed load of ghost buses which gave the impression a bus was nearby but infact no bus existed? Even so, absolutely NOTHING stopped TFGM creating a big transport app beforehand. They already had the data needed (as they were doing live departures and stuff pre bee network) and if not, the data was all available via Bus Open Data.


The fares are being cut to the level they were before Burnham raised them! He purposely didn't include some fares in his fare cap, let the fares go up, then made it an election pledge to bring them back to the level they were before.


Figures can be heavily skewed. Especially if one politician has seemed to have based their whole political career around this single policy. If this fails, Burnham has almost nothing else to show for his time as mayor. As we have seen many times with all things political (Not specifically Burnahm a mayor but a general thing), there are cover ups and skewed statistics everywhere.
Thanks for replying on my behalf much appreciated

Whereas before journeys would have not run? I know which I prefer as a passenger.


If that's happening, it sounds like TfGM are being defrauded into paying for mileage that doesn't run as well as generating better figures for that operator. I'd advise getting someone to report it to them.
It is happening believe me, keeping the machine active and key in the trip, the machine logs the trip not what you put on the destination blind
 
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markymark2000

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The Rusholme weekend evening diversion pre-dates Bee Network, and was operating reactively most weekends before it was formalised in the timetable. As an actual user of the route, the diversion (certainly of the 41) was totally the correct thing to do at the time it occurred. Patronage was being decimated by unreliability, i'd often be the only person on the bus and you couldnt predict which road the bus would be on (or if it would pick you up on the diversion). I personally had changed my travel habits to getting the tram followed by a reliable bus home, rather than my direct option. At least now you can plan appropriately.
It was in place pre Bee Network but it is still a case of pandering to cars. If we are serious about getting people onto public transport (whoever owns it), buses can't keep going on lengthy diversions and avoiding areas due to congestion. Not only does that mean people going to/from the area can't use buses (in this case Rusholme is a busy area for buses, avoiding it means lower patronage). Extended journey times too (whether that be the diversion or due to actually sitting in the congestion), put people off using buses too. The end result being more cars on the road, and you're back to square one.

Stagecoach diversion doesn't miss as much of Rusholme out and the Bee Network could amend the route to be that diversion instead, at least towards Sale (not sure how easy you could turn right onto Dickenson Road, I'd probably say northbound, the Bee Network diversion is probably better but it does mean a huge area is missed out, and the fact there is a diversion in the first place is unacceptable. Buses should have priority here, not cars.

Manchester City Council could make the area 'no motor vehicles except buses Fri/Sat nights'. Then have a council camera car going up and down to fine those breaching the rules. Problem fixed

The Bee Network has no control over Greater Manchester Police, who are the ones who need to be in ruthlessly dealing with the gross misuse of motor vehicles that occurs all the time in Rusholme (plus the parking attendants for actual parking offences).
True but the Mayor is the police and crime commissioner and the mayor is also the head honcho for Bee Network. Surely the head of both can instruct GMP to look into this issue more. I understand your second point though (the bit I haven't quoted)
 

Shauny

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17 Mar 2020
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Macclesfield
From the Bee Network website:

Interesting to see that the 287 and 288 make a return and there is a new 279/280 to Lymm. Perhaps the X5 will be no more in January?
 

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mangad

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20 Jun 2014
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From the Bee Network website:

Interesting to see that the 287 and 288 make a return and there is a new 279/280 to Lymm. Perhaps the X5 will be no more in January?
Being cross county boundary, and being run from Warrington, it may be the X5 not going to be Bee Networked. The 394 is always been excluded from the Bee Network lists for similar reasons.

One I note is missing is the 375 in Stockport. The daytime service got hit by the demise of Little Gem, and there was a reshuffle of routes when they had problem getting new operators. TfGM ended up rejigging, by giving part of the route to the 364, and moving the rest to a new 385 route. But the evening 375 (operated by Stagecoach) remained as is, which was always weird but was obviously related to contracts. Perhaps they're tidying it up. Or maybe it's going. IIRC the evening service was introduced with government funding.

Source URL is
 

markymark2000

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Perhaps the X5 will be no more in January?
X5 will no longer be running to Manchester Airport. Otherwise, the x5 doesn't go through Dunham Massey anymore, that is covered by Belle Vue 280.

I am surprised though that the CAT5 isn't reverting back to it's old route and then Bee Network restoring their old Sale to Partington service. Unless that is planned in time? This is most odd on the basis that I believed the large extension to the CAT 5 was due to TFGM funding the service to replace the Little Gem Sale Locals tender when Little Gem shut down.
 

Andyh82

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I was hoping that the 7 & 11 might get renumbered as they annoy me, for no rational reason except for them being such low numbers that don’t serve Manchester. I’d number them 307 & 311
 

Tim33160

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I was hoping that the 7 & 11 might get renumbered as they annoy me, for no rational reason except for them being such low numbers that don’t serve Manchester. I’d number them 307 & 311
The launch of each Tranche as always been same network - pick you tomorrow as usual - with no changes to routes / times etc
This time only the Warrington services appear to be changed back to Little Gem 287 288 - and a revised 260/280 to give 279/280

Route renumberings (eg 42 A B C 85A) and changes comes later .... ?
 

mayneway

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One I note is missing is the 375 in Stockport. The daytime service got hit by the demise of Little Gem, and there was a reshuffle of routes when they had problem getting new operators. TfGM ended up rejigging, by giving part of the route to the 364, and moving the rest to a new 385 route. But the evening 375 (operated by Stagecoach) remained as is, which was always weird but was obviously related to contracts. Perhaps they're tidying it up. Or maybe it's going. IIRC the evening service was introduced with government funding.
Another missing is the 217. Pretty sure its suspension was always deemed as temporary by TFGM until Bee Network kicked in.
 

neilcobbe

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New Bee Network route being introduced in Wigan by the look of things. Pics on the x account of the local cllr @CllrLauaFlynn.
 

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158756

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That timetable leaves rather a lot to be desired. It'll get a lot of fanfare as the Bee Network's first new route but it's not much to shout about.

According to the local Labour party's announcement on Facebook this is a 12 month trial. Apparently the only way the new service could start now was by using a school bus, hence the three hour gaps in the timetable in the morning and afternoon. And they would have liked evening and Sunday services (so presumably there is no money for them?)

I'm not sure that timetable is going to get them the results they want for the trial. It'll be useful for some shoppers, but most of the shops at Middlebrook open during the gap in the morning service and are still open when the service finishes, so it's not particularly useful for workers. The rail connections are all over the place, plus obviously you can't get anywhere in the morning peak, and if you were shopping in Manchester you'd have to leave at 1 to get back before tea time. The Parklands stop on certain services seems to serve a number of office buildings, so they're targeting office workers who work 7-5?
 

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