Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[158756]

I would guess both sides thought it should be their route. It's subsidised by TfGM so it should be franchised, but Warrington wouldn't be willing to give up half the service between Warrington and Lymm (within the Warrington Council area).

The curious thing is why they couldn't come to the same arrangement as the Cat5. The X5 was only introduced relatively recently, so did TfGM specify this 289 (or whatever number it is) in the franchise contracts before the X5 was introduced and now they'd have to pay Diamond a fortune to cancel it?

 

[BankQuayLowLvl]

Very disappointing to read this. The 5 (and friends) was my local bus service growing up in south Warrington and always suffered from tortuously slow journeys - via Stockton Heath, and whatever combination of villages are visited between Lymm and Altrincham. The current Cat5 has taken this to an extreme with the Carrington/Partington routing - but this was nealty matched by the X5, despite the mucking around in Bowden.

The replacement combination of services is not going to provide anywhere near the same level of connectivity - no direct journeys from Lymm/south Warrington to the Airport, no Hale to south Warrington and no fast south Warrington to Altrincham. However I'm glad to see the addition of the 5A, assuming this runs direct via Latchford, as this massively reduces journey times to the town centre.

Unfortunately I can't comment on how well used this service was - especially with commuters to/from the Airport and surrounding employment areas, which might well be the bread and butter.

 

[route101]

Used the Bee network this weekend. Still plenty of older Stagecoach E400s about. The network could do with a route map as I had to look at each route individually where it went.

 

[PaulWC]

Used the Bee network this weekend. Still plenty of older Stagecoach E400s about. The network could do with a route map as I had to look at each route individually where it went.

There are area maps on the website:-

https://tfgm.com/public-transport/network-maps-region

 

[158756]

There are area maps on the website:-

https://tfgm.com/public-transport/network-maps-region

There are maps, but they're not very user friendly IMO.

Compare to e.g. Diamond's old map of their services in this area

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.diamondbuses.com/media/3972/bolton-bury_network_final.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi-htmn6NKJAxX3gf0HHdOLOrAQFnoECAwQAg&usg=AOvVaw1CNHbqhymSWLm0wAE5znpW

or for more detail, an example of what current operator Go Ahead can produce when they are in charge of publicity

https://images-bluestarbus.passenger-website.com/2024-10/Bluestar_Unilink_Southampton%20NETWORK%20MAP%20MASTER_Oct%202024.pdf

It's just very difficult to follow any routes on the TfGM map, you can't look at it and instantly see which route you need to get anywhere. It is good for showing the exact details of stop locations, but I thought with TfGM taking over sole responsibility for promoting the Bee Network they might produce something a bit easier to understand as well.

Something like the Bluestar map (other designs are available) would look much better on a leaflet or a poster in the bus station. And is easier to use on a small screen, which is what most people are using these days

 

[daodao]

There are maps, but they're not very user friendly IMO.

Compare to e.g. Diamond's old map of their services in this area

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.diamondbuses.com/media/3972/bolton-bury_network_final.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi-htmn6NKJAxX3gf0HHdOLOrAQFnoECAwQAg&usg=AOvVaw1CNHbqhymSWLm0wAE5znpW

or for more detail, an example of what current operator Go Ahead can produce when they are in charge of publicity

https://images-bluestarbus.passenger-website.com/2024-10/Bluestar_Unilink_Southampton%20NETWORK%20MAP%20MASTER_Oct%202024.pdf

It's just very difficult to follow any routes on the TfGM map, you can't look at it and instantly see which route you need to get anywhere. It is good for showing the exact details of stop locations, but I thought with TfGM taking over sole responsibility for promoting the Bee Network they might produce something a bit easier to understand as well.

Something like the Bluestar map (other designs are available) would look much better on a leaflet or a poster in the bus station. And is easier to use on a small screen, which is what most people are using these days

The TfGM bus maps are adequate, and have changed little in recent years (apart from a gradual reduction in routes and roads served). Many local authorities and bus operators don't produce any route maps. Coloured maps, while more attractive to many users, can be confusing for those who are colour-blind. TfGM used to produce a simpler and more user-friendly map of higher frequency routes across Greater Manchester that was quite handy, but stopped doing so some years ago.

 

[Statto]

TfGM maps are great when using a PC, or laptop, ecc, they take forever to load when using a decent mobile device (ie Samsung Phone), however i do like they put in bus stop locations on the map.

Note, i see the Wigan North (& Wigan South) map has been updated to include the new 615 route.

 

[father_jack]

Two MMCs less in the fleet after an accident in Manchester yesterday.

(Link is of youtube video of the recovery)

 

[Class 466]

Two MMCs less in the fleet after an accident in Manchester yesterday.

(Link is of youtube video of the recovery)

only one is an MMC, the other is a Classic E400. Whilst the older vehicle is almost definitely withdrawn with the level of damage to the front and the fact it was due for withdrawal soon anyway, there’s no saying that the 20 plate MMC won’t be repaired. (Also this isn’t really relevant to a thread about routes/timetables)

 

[Tim33160]

Anyone aware of the successful operators for Tranche Three Schools contracts??

Believe Diamond is running some Belle Vue Schools services in advance of 5 Jan 2025 due to driver shortages at Belle Vue

FoI successful request for list of TfGM Cross border permits applied for:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bee_network_cross_border_bus_per#incoming-2824396

• 
  24.25.0167.pdf
  216K Download View as HTML - TfGM letter
• 
  241002 Service Permit Information Dynamics2.pdf - list of routes
  125K Download View as HTML

Comprehensive list including some National Express services which must have point to point fares in GM
Note: cut and paste for 394 shows wrong route details! - just a copy of 291-3

 

[mangad]

Anyone aware of the successful operators for Tranche Three Schools contracts??

Manchester bus franchising final tranche school services awarded - routeone

Diamond Bus North West and Go North West will run school services awarded under the third tranche of bus franchising in Greater Manchester.

www.route-one.net

In short, Diamond and Go North West.

 

[route101]

There are area maps on the website:-

https://tfgm.com/public-transport/network-maps-region

I see. At Shudehill they had the cycling maps but no bus maps on display.

 

[Andyh82]

I agree that the maps are a bit unwieldy even on a full sized screen connected to a PC

It’d be nice if they did more maps, area guides, something to actually promote the network, even online, but better in paper form

Although this wouldn’t fit with the aim to be ‘London style’

 

[Ghostbus]

There are area maps on the website:-

https://tfgm.com/public-transport/network-maps-region

swear

I swear this was exactly what bus maps looked like before the internet was even invented. And as far as I recall, a map like this is much more readable in paper format, although I'd struggle to explain why.

 

[HSTEd]

Do we have any inkling on future bus service reworks, especially in the Tranche 3 area?

The Oxford Road bus routes could certainly do with some attention, I think they have been badly damaged by the post coronavirus service cuts and need rationalisation.

Even if they just introduce a non-stop bus running loops between Fallowfield and Booth Street during University business hours to soak up that traffic without piling buses down the curry mile.

 

[mangad]

Do we have any inkling on future bus service reworks, especially in the Tranche 3 area?

TfGM announced a full review of the network in the summer, including that it will be a rolling process.

Major review of bus services to support continuous improvement of Bee Network across Greater Manchester

news.tfgm.com

They announced they'd start with Bolton and Wigan, which makes sense as those will be the areas that have been in the Bee Network the longest. No doubt there will be some tweaking and improvements at the launch of Tranche 3 as there have been with other areas. But anything bigger is likely to come later.

 

[Shauny]

Do we have any inkling on future bus service reworks, especially in the Tranche 3 area?

The Oxford Road bus routes could certainly do with some attention, I think they have been badly damaged by the post coronavirus service cuts and need rationalisation.

Even if they just introduce a non-stop bus running loops between Fallowfield and Booth Street during University business hours to soak up that traffic without piling buses down the curry mile.

They could do with introducing a new service between Stockport and Sale

 

[Statto]

I often think whether the return of the old express route 400, 401 Bolton - Stockport would be useful, back in the day this was a handy route serving the peripheral Towns around Manchester, might give faster alternative to the 409 & 471

 

[M60lad]

I doubt with the amount of traffic on the roads these days that routes like 400 & 401 would actually work to be honest, as this is one of the main reasons why 22 Bolton-Stockport was withdrawn and the services split into various different services.

One route I would love to see come back is a route linking Oldham with Trafford Centre, I'm sure if it was re-introduced it would work.

 

[daodao]

They could do with introducing a new service between Stockport and Sale

TfGM did introduce a route (X5) between Stockport and Sale, running partly via the M56/M60. It was reduced to Mon-Fri peak hours only a few years ago and then withdrawn completely. TfGM do not appear to be especially fond of longer routes, given the number that have gradually been withdrawn, particularly in southern Manchester, over the last 20 years. These will include soon (when phase 3 franchising goes live) the direct Altrincham-Warrington route (also currently numbered X5), which TfGM are slicing up because of apparent difficulties in reaching agreements with independent operators regarding cross-boundary services into "their patch".

 

[Mollman]

They could do with introducing a new service between Stockport and Sale

Well if you live in the area you could always write to your councillor to suggest it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One route I would love to see come back is a route linking Oldham with Trafford Centre, I'm sure if it was re-introduced it would work.

I'm not so sure it would. It's about an hour on the tram from Oldham to Trafford Centre, even if you ran express around the M60 a bus wouldn't be much quicker (if at all).

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure what the problem is but Bus Times at the moment is not showing any timetables for 59 & 84 services they apparently know of the problem and it has been reported to the operator who are working on it.

 

[markymark2000]

Not to sure what the problem is but Bus Times at the moment is not showing any timetables for 59 & 84 services they apparently know of the problem and it has been reported to the operator who are working on it.

Open data provided by TFGMs intermediatry seems to be having issues. Loads of timetables are expired.

 

[Andyh82]

I often think whether the return of the old express route 400, 401 Bolton - Stockport would be useful, back in the day this was a handy route serving the peripheral Towns around Manchester, might give faster alternative to the 409 & 471

Considering the obsession with everything being ‘London style’, I’d like to see a Manchester version of the Superloop and I’m sure Andy Burnham would as well

At off peak times it’s not so much the traffic that makes orbital routes slow, it’s the stopping at every stop

Some sort of Bolton to Rochdale express service, and then maybe an Oldham to Stockport via Ashton service, and something in the south west corner between Stockport and the Trafford Centre via Wythenshawe, Manchester Airport and Altrincham

Wigan to Bolton has the train and Rochdale to Oldham has the tram as fast services, there are already the express buses between Trafford Centre and Wigan/Leigh

 

[D9006]

Wigan really needs direct bus service to Manchester, the train is so unreliable, The 32 in its day was rammed, the 33 we’ll not so. But a 32 service is definitely needed

 

[johncrossley]

Wigan really needs direct bus service to Manchester, the train is so unreliable, The 32 in its day was rammed, the 33 we’ll not so. But a 32 service is definitely needed

The answer here is to fix the train, not to replace it with a bus! If you really want to go by bus, that has been made easier recently by the 132 increasing to every 30 minutes and you can connect onto the V2 at Atherton or the V1 and V2 at Tyldesley. From January, there will be one hour bus fare so changing buses won't cost more.

 

[Statto]

Wigan really needs direct bus service to Manchester, the train is so unreliable, The 32 in its day was rammed, the 33 we’ll not so. But a 32 service is definitely needed

Looking at a timetable from 2015, the 32 used to take almost 90 minutes Wigan - Manchester Piccadilly & that was off peak, some journeys took 2 hours in the peaks, & this was the direct route, not sure the route is needed because of the journey times would put a lot off from using it.

 

[M60lad]

While 132 has been increased to every 30mins its a shame nothing has been done to the timetable itself as some of the running times do need looking at with why too much time given on some trips to get from Wigan-Hindley and then again from Hindley-Atherton then after Atherton on the same trips its a sprint to get to Trafford Centre.

 

[splashoutradio]

Open data provided by TFGMs intermediatry seems to be having issues. Loads of timetables are expired.

I've noticed this too. Have been waiting for refreshed data for a while now. Unfortunately, the GTFS data shows expired timetables as still running, in some cases.