Being allowed to accept more than one route.

[Peter0124]

Helensburgh - Edinburgh being diverted via Singer instead of Yoker?

 

[D6130]

Helensburgh - Edinburgh being diverted via Singer instead of Yoker?

Indeed....and in the old days, Glasgow Queen Street-Oban/Fort William/Mallaig and vice-versa being diverted via Yoker instead of Singer.

 

[30907]

Via Lewisham is, for Down trains.

Thanks

Dartford isn't mentioned in the Sectional Appendix

Not really surprising- when was there last a non-stop working down that way? I vaguely recall a late night Ramsgate-Victoria in the 70s/80s....

 

[zwk500]

Thanks

Not really surprising- when was there last a non-stop working down that way? I vaguely recall a late night Ramsgate-Victoria in the 70s/80s....

No idea, but there's also the number of combinations between London Bridge and Dartford you could theoretically have. Via Greenwich, Blackheath and Charlton, Bexleyheath, and 2 ways to Sidcup (Lewisham or Fast Line) give 5 possible variations. I can understand why it's better to get drivers to confirm the diversion if needed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What about empty stock moves between Ramsgate and Ashford via either Canterbury West or Dover?

 

[Glenn1969]

Can Calder Valley trains from Leeds to Sowerby Bridge and beyond ever get diverted via Dewsbury and Brighouse to make up time after a delay if normal route is Bradford/Halifax ?

 

[zwk500]

Can Calder Valley trains from Leeds to Sowerby Bridge and beyond ever get diverted via Dewsbury and Brighouse to make up time after a delay if normal route is Bradford/Halifax ?

In theory yes but not without warning so doesn't meet the OP's criteria.

 

[Nippy]

I seem to remember on the old paper working timetables that drivers running non-stop Reading to Taunton could accept either route at Reading or Cogload.

 

[Ken H]

What is this challenging thing. Just the driver seeking assurance the route had not been set in error?

Here is one. Driver approaching shipley from keighley on a service to leeds expecting to go on the avoiding line. But he gets a feather towards forster sq. Does he challenge that or does he think 'avoiding line must be blocked. I will have to reverse at the crossovers by Crossleys scrap yard' and drive into the platform?

 

[D6130]

Here is one. Driver approaching shipley from keighley on a service to leeds expecting to go on the avoiding line. But he gets a feather towards forster sq. Does he challenge that or does he think 'avoiding line must be blocked. I will have to reverse at the crossovers by Crossleys scrap yard' and drive into the

The signal concerned is at the end of Saltaire Up Platform and has three possible routeings. Main aspect is towards Shipley platform 1 and then on to Leeds or Guiseley. Position 3 route indicator gives the road towards the reversible Down platform no. 2 at Shipley, which would not require to be challenged. However, the position 4 route indicator leads towards the reversible platform 5 and onwards towards Bradford Forster Square, so this routeing would have to be challenged by the driver of a Leeds-bound train.

 

[Ken H]

The signal concerned is at the end of Saltaire Up Platform and has three possible routeings. Main aspect is towards Shipley platform 1 and then on to Leeds or Guiseley. Position 3 route indicator gives the road towards the reversible Down platform no. 2 at Shipley, which would not require to be challenged. However, the position 4 route indicator leads towards the reversible platform 5 and onwards towards Bradford Forster Square, so this routeing would have to be challenged by the driver of a Leeds-bound train.

i can understand the challenging bit in case its an error. but the challenging must cause delays when its a valid re-routeing.

 

[dan4291]

What is this challenging thing. Just the driver seeking assurance the route had not been set in error?

Essentially yes. If the route had been set in error and the driver took it anyway, they would be at fault rather than the signaller.

 

[D6130]

Essentially yes. If the route had been set in error and the driver took it anyway, they would be at fault rather than the signaller.

When it happened to me many years ago, both I and the signaller were in trouble.

 

[BluePenguin]

Thanks

Not really surprising- when was there last a non-stop working down that way? I vaguely recall a late night Ramsgate-Victoria in the 70s/80s....

Once in a blue moon trains to Victoria are diverted via Dartford when there is engineering work or a fatality. This happened only last week

 

[zwk500]

What is this challenging thing. Just the driver seeking assurance the route had not been set in error?

Here is one. Driver approaching shipley from keighley on a service to leeds expecting to go on the avoiding line. But he gets a feather towards forster sq. Does he challenge that or does he think 'avoiding line must be blocked. I will have to reverse at the crossovers by Crossleys scrap yard' and drive into the platform?

The driver will stop and call the signaller on the GSM-R radio system, telling them which route he was expecting and the signaller will then either confirm the reason for the diversion or give a brief expression of frustration and instruct the driver to wait while he resets the route. Once diversions have been authorised, the signallers or controllers will start calling drivers at station stops to warn them in advance, so they don't need to stop at the signal.

In the rule book all wrong routes should be challenged, but certain routes have a written instruction removing this requirement for non-stop trains. Any diversion that would involve a reversal would need contact between signaller and driver to ensure the driver is aware they will need to stop (and where) and change ends.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

In terms of Dartford, or also Slade Green, there are of course non-stop trains; just that they are freight trains. I know the preferred routing is via Sidcup, but can via Bexleyheath be accepted? Obviously via Woolwich cannot be accepted at Blackheath if the train is heading to Angerstein Wharf but are there any loading gauge restrictions which would stop a Hoo Jct engineers’ working going via Woolwich?

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks

Not really surprising- when was there last a non-stop working down that way? I vaguely recall a late night Ramsgate-Victoria in the 70s/80s....

Very rarely when Victoria services are on diversion due to some closure of the Chatham lines, but yes not a scheduled service.

 

[dodecahedron67]

In terms of Dartford, or also Slade Green, there are of course non-stop trains; just that they are freight trains. I know the preferred routing is via Sidcup, but can via Bexleyheath be accepted? Obviously via Woolwich cannot be accepted at Blackheath if the train is heading to Angerstein Wharf but are there any loading gauge restrictions which would stop a Hoo Jct engineers’ working going via Woolwich?

A lot have to go via Sidcup because they use the Lee spur to access the SEML down towards Tonbridge, and at Lewisham if they come from the Sidcup line then they don't block the flat crossing when heading towards Nunhead and Clapham

If they come from Woolwich/Bexleyheath via Blackheath, they would block the flat crossing at Lewisham for quite a while

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Sorry, not clear enough. Is a freight train coming from Nunhead, down the hill to Lewisham, permitted to accept via Bexleyheath and via Hither Green if said train is heading beyond Dartford or to Angerstein Wharf? And if heading to Hoo Jct is via Woolwich acceptable at Blackheath?

 

[ComUtoR]

but the challenging must cause delays when its a valid re-routeing.

It can cause delays but it can also cause them if you don't. Not all routes are created equally. Pathways and timings may cause more delay than if you quickly challenged the route. In most cases I've found that the Signaller is aware before you even stop and can often call you on approach anyway. There is a simple trick to avoid embarrassment for everyone involved if you get offered a wrong route.

 

[jh1989]

How about Aldwarke Jcn to Conisborough which can go via Swinton or avoid it?

Express services between Doncaster and Meadowhall can be routed either way - via Swinton or via Thrybergh - but they must follow their booked route, or question an unexpected routing.

Although the driver may sign both routes, the conductor might not.

 

[zwk500]

Sorry, not clear enough. Is a freight train coming from Nunhead, down the hill to Lewisham, permitted to accept via Bexleyheath and via Hither Green if said train is heading beyond Dartford or to Angerstein Wharf? And if heading to Hoo Jct is via Woolwich acceptable at Blackheath?

It will depend what restrictions apply to that train and whether the driver knows the route. There is no instruction in the Sectional Appendix to accept alternative routings to Dartford so if a train is diverted it would need to be contacted in advance or the driver should stop and challenge the route at Lewisham.

 

[Taunton]

A thread in the History and Nostalgia section mentioned drivers being told to accept via Herne Hill or via Catford routes at Shortlands Junction so long as their train was not scheduled to stop at any intermediate stations before London Victoria. Are there any other locations where drivers are allowed to accept multiple routes without question? One assumes Brixton on the down would apply for trains not stopping before Bromley South.

For clarity I don’t mean accepting fast or slow lines, I mean accepting a completely different formation (eg Westbury loop) which ultimately rejoins the “main” line.

Not just the Catford Loop, but all the old "Boat Train" routes across Kent, where, particularly in the Up direction where to-the-minute punctuality was poor whilst sharing the various two-track routes with suburban and fast services, there were well-established decision points for Control over which way to send services whilst running.

This continued right through to the Eurostar at Waterloo era, and was a particular issue for the Paris/Brussels-based drivers who needed to know all these different routings, although not of course the one via Canterbury East. Coming through Sevenoaks and finding the signals off for the Bat & Ball line must have been a bit perplexing for them. I believe it even extended (not Eurostar of course) to the "Low Level" lines at Stewarts Lane, which are somehow found to be an occasional alternative way into Victoria.

Regarding the various Dartford lines, I think this was an issue with the 1970s accident to a returning Class 47-hauled excursion from Margate which overturned at speed on the tight curve at Eltham; the Kentish Town driver had periodic familiarity with cross-London services to the Kent coast but they could be routed any of four ways between Lewisham and Rochester, and thus experience was dissipated between the different ways. Via Sidcup was the most common, so via Eltham less so.

 

[Gloster]

Regarding the various Dartford lines, I think this was an issue with the 1970s accident to a returning Class 47-hauled excursion from Margate which overturned at speed on the tight curve at Eltham; the Kentish Town driver had periodic familiarity with cross-London services to the Kent coast but they could be routed any of four ways between Lewisham and Rochester, and thus experience was dissipated between the different ways. Via Sidcup was the most common, so via Eltham less so.

If you mean the 1972 Eltham Well Hall accident, the driver had ‘grossly impaired his ability to drive safely by drinking a considerable quantity of alcohol.’ The train entered a 20 mph curve at 65 mph.

 

[D6130]

Regarding the various Dartford lines, I think this was an issue with the 1970s accident to a returning Class 47-hauled excursion from Margate which overturned at speed on the tight curve at Eltham; the Kentish Town driver had periodic familiarity with cross-London services to the Kent coast but they could be routed any of four ways between Lewisham and Rochester, and thus experience was dissipated between the different ways. Via Sidcup was the most common, so via Eltham less so.

I thought the driver involved in that accident - who sadly lost his life - was based at Hither Green?

 

[Gloster]

I thought the driver involved in that accident - who sadly lost his life - was based at Hither Green?

Yes, he was Hither Green based.

 

[Taunton]

Oh well, in that case I have it wrong.

 

[zwk500]

I believe it even extended (not Eurostar of course) to the "Low Level" lines at Stewarts Lane, which are somehow found to be an occasional alternative way into Victoria.

It's also an important way of reducing conflicts at Grosvenor Bridge Jn and Victoria throat for slow line services given the varying platform lengths on the Chatham Side. The Up Stewarts Lane becomes the Up Slow at Grosvenor Bridge Jn so you can have a parallel arrival and departure. SouthEastern have regular booked passenger traffic via the route (certainly do in non-covid times) to maintain knowledge and for the above reasons.

 

[Signal_Box]

Deleted

 

[Dibbo4025]

What about Woking-Waterloos going via Addlestone?

Definitely not, unlike Guildford-Surbiton where both routes are similar running times via Chertsey is significantly longer. Besides you'd have to be pretty lucky to get a crew which signed the route