Being allowed to accept more than one route.

[choochoochoo]

As for modern examples, would I be right in thinking that non-stop services between Stevenage and Finsbury Park/Kings Cross are permitted to accept both the route via Welwyn and the route via Hertford?

GN diagrams state whether you're to go via Welwyn or via Hertford, so I'd question this with the signaller if I was offered what was not diagrammed.

Also going down the Hertford loop means remembering to go into power-reduction mode on a 700. One more reason I don't like going that way other than its slower line speed.

 

[Falcon1200]

If the route had been set in error and the driver took it anyway, they would be at fault rather than the signaller.

In that situation the attribution, ie blame, should be shared 50/50, as both parties have erred. There are however places where the Driver, on seeing the signal cleared for the wrong route, does not have time to stop before actually taking the wrong route, which can lead to interesting debates on delay attribution.....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Always thought that Manchester Piccadilly -> London Euston has quite a high number of different potential routeings, such as via Styal Line to Wilmslow/Crewe, via Stockport to Wilmslow then Crewe and/or via Stockport and Macclesfield to Stoke-on-Trent and then Stone.

If routed via Crewe, maybe then via Kidsgrove to Stoke-on-Trent/Stone or direct via the WCML to Stafford.

From Stafford, maybe then via Penkridge towards Wolverhampton (maybe, or maybe not passing through the latter) and then via Birmingham New Street or Bescot/Tame Bridge towards Coventry and Rugby.

Or from Stoke-on-Trent/Stone, either towards Stafford or direct towards Rugeley TV, and then Rugby.

And from Rugby, either direct to Milton Keynes Central via Weedon, or via Long Buckby and Northampton.

Done all of these variants in the past, usually on a Sunday.

Do Avanti drivers still sign all these potential MAN->EUS routes?

 

[zwk500]

Do Avanti drivers still sign all these potential MAN->EUS routes?

Most of them, but for aome of the rarer ones they have to run route refreshers in advance (e.g. Via Bescot). I think coverage of the diverts varies between depots.

 

[Watershed]

Always thought that Manchester Piccadilly -> London Euston has quite a high number of different potential routeings, such as via Styal Line to Wilmslow/Crewe, via Stockport to Wilmslow then Crewe and/or via Stockport and Macclesfield to Stoke-on-Trent and then Stone.

If routed via Crewe, maybe then via Kidsgrove to Stoke-on-Trent/Stone or direct via the WCML to Stafford.

From Stafford, maybe then via Penkridge towards Wolverhampton (maybe, or maybe not passing through the latter) and then via Birmingham New Street or Bescot/Tame Bridge towards Coventry and Rugby.

Or from Stoke-on-Trent/Stone, either towards Stafford or direct towards Rugeley TV, and then Rugby.

And from Rugby, either direct to Milton Keynes Central via Weedon, or via Long Buckby and Northampton.

Done all of these variants in the past, usually on a Sunday.

Do Avanti drivers still sign all these potential MAN->EUS routes?

Indeed. Plus the number of different (largely theoretical) combinations through the West Midlands, e.g. via Rugeley and Walsall, then via New Street (via Soho, or via Duddeston reversing at New St) or via the Aston-Stechford avoiding line. And in the unlikely event of a Voyager substitution you could add on via Coleshill and/or Bedworth.

Obviously Avanti drivers don't sign all of those - but it has to be up there as the journey with the most possible permutations of diversionary routes? Particularly impressive considering that there are effectively 4+ tracks all the way, even if the 10-foot is rather more like the 15-mile in certain places!

 

[The Planner]

Chase line and Bedworth they don't sign. There should be Water Orton runs over Easter.

 

[Taunton]

Most of them, but for aome of the rarer ones they have to run route refreshers in advance (e.g. Via Bescot). I think coverage of the diverts varies between depots.

There is presumably the ability nowadays to advise rerouting while on the move. Remember being on a late-running Pendolino in their early days when the WCML was being plagued with signal vandalism (some may remember that) and it was closed for repairs south of Stafford at 10pm. Conductor announced that we hoped to just get through before the closure, but later, without stopping and between Crewe and Stafford, that we had just missed it and were going via Bescot.

 

[zwk500]

There is presumably the ability nowadays to advise rerouting while on the move.

Yep, signaller can call the driver over GSM-R to advise of the diversion prior to reaching the signal.

 

[M60lad]

Do TPE still sign Manchester-Wigan via Wilmslow & Crewe? I know this was used as a diversion to Wigan Northwestern due to engineering works a couple of years ago, they ran trains to Crewe where the train would then head up to Wigan NW via WCML.

As for Cross Country I know that a couple of years ago Cross Country signed an interesting diversion from Stoke to Stafford which was from Stone to Rugeley Trent Valley where it would reverse and head to Stafford, not to sure if this can still happen these days.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yep, signaller can call the driver over GSM-R to advise of the diversion prior to reaching the signal.

Signallers calling Drivers on the move and Drivers answering on the move is becoming increasingly rare. Its even crept into some PDPs (Driving policies)

 

[zwk500]

Signallers calling Drivers on the move and Drivers answering on the move is becoming increasingly rare. Its even crept into some PDPs (Driving policies)

Yes, my understanding was that it was discouraged but not outright banned. I guess the preferred method is to send a message asking the driver to call back at their next station stop?

 

[Taunton]

Signallers calling Drivers on the move and Drivers answering on the move is becoming increasingly rare. Its even crept into some PDPs (Driving policies)

Funny how those really skilled transport professionals, aircraft pilots, are on a two-way spoken communication all the time. However did the railway throw this communication advance away? How might Southall have been different if signals had advised the driver they would unusually be getting pulled up because a freight was being given priority across the layout.

 

[Mintona]

Funny how those really skilled transport professionals, aircraft pilots, are on a two-way spoken communication all the time. However did the railway throw this communication advance away? How might Southall have been different if signals had advised the driver they would unusually be getting pulled up because a freight was being given priority across the layout.

Whilst I have no problem with drivers speaking to the signaller on the move on green signals, there is rather less to be looking for out the front of an aeroplane than a train. Pilots also wear headsets and so don’t have to move their focus to the GSMR screen and handset in order to answer the phone.

Cardiff Central travelling west bound can route without prior notice via Ninian Park vice direct and the Mainline to Leckwith Junc.

As long as it’s not a Bristol or Paddington driver!

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, my understanding was that it was discouraged but not outright banned. I guess the preferred method is to send a message asking the driver to call back at their next station stop?

I have found that "CONTACT SIGNALLER" is almost the norm now. If I'm approaching a wrong route and I hear the GSMR I am confident that the Signaller is already aware and the route will be reset. Same with approaching a Red. If the GSMR beeps then I'm confident that whatever is ahead is already being sorted or well in hand.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, my understanding was that it was discouraged but not outright banned. I guess the preferred method is to send a message asking the driver to call back at their next station stop?

That or at the next signal.

Funny how those really skilled transport professionals, aircraft pilots, are on a two-way spoken communication all the time. However did the railway throw this communication advance away? How might Southall have been different if signals had advised the driver they would unusually be getting pulled up because a freight was being given priority across the layout.

Freight moving around Southall & Acton areas causing minor delays is nothing new.

Southall was primarily due to allowing a train to go in a) service and b) line speed with a number of safety-critical features completely disabled & driver inattentiveness.

 

[ComUtoR]

Funny how those really skilled transport professionals, aircraft pilots, are on a two-way spoken communication all the time. However did the railway throw this communication advance away?

Funny how some Pilots have multiple people in the cab and many miles between any other object in the sky.
Funny how using a mobile whilst driving is banned and considered dangerous.

Santiago de Compostela derailment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Court investigators said that the driver was speaking on the telephone to staff at Renfe about the route to Ferrol, and consulting a map or document, shortly before the brakes were activated and that he did apply the brakes, but not in time to achieve the safe speed limit for the curve

Development of a train driver education programme on mobile phone risk (T904)

The aim of this project was to produce a train driver education programme designed to manage and reduce the incidence of inappropriate mobile phone use to ensure the risk from mobile phone distraction is as low as reasonably practicable.

www.rssb.co.uk

Key Findings
Mobile phone use can contribute to visual, cognitive, physical and auditory distraction. Driver distraction due to mobile phone use has been found to result in, among other things, less checking for hazards, reduced situational awareness, poorer speed control (greater speed variation), slower reaction time, and poorer decision-making.

There are various research briefs regarding mobile phone and other communication devices but there have been various incidents where a Drivers was speaking to the Signaller and it has directly contributed to the incident happening. The Railway doesn't make these decisions for fun and neither do they take them lightly. Communicating on the move introduces a risk. Incident investigations have provided key evidence to support it too. The 'Human factors' involved are pretty high too. As the Railway moves into a new phase of dealing with risks and risk awareness there is a lot of focus on the human factors involved. Speaking on the GSMR is a human factor risk and easily mitigated by simply stopping the train before taking the call. The Signallers have done their job by reducing the distraction with an incoming call and sending the contact message. Overall the railway is safer. That's something we all need to support.

 

[zwk500]

Speaking on the GSMR is a human factor risk and easily mitigated by simply stopping the train before taking the call. The Signallers have done their job by reducing the distraction with an incoming call and sending the contact message. Overall the railway is safer. That's something we all need to support.

Well said!

 

[choochoochoo]

Whilst I have no problem with drivers speaking to the signaller on the move on green signals, there is rather less to be looking for out the front of an aeroplane than a train. Pilots also wear headsets and so don’t have to move their focus to the GSMR screen and handset in order to answer the phone.

I'd be happy to wear a headset whilst driving. I do feel you'd get better situational awareness if you knew what other trains around you were doing or being told to do.

Funny how some Pilots have multiple people in the cab and many miles between any other object in the sky.

Not necessarily true. Plenty of single pilot commercial operations out there. And lots of critical moments when pilots are on the radio at the same time as doing something tricky. But they fly by an adage - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Train Drivers (most) do the same. By only taking GSMR calls when safe to do so.

 

[jfollows]

Do Avanti drivers still sign all these potential MAN->EUS routes?

1H74 19:40 (normally, 19:20 today) Euston-Manchester uses the Styal line, presumably as a means of retaining route knowledge for drivers.
1H77 21:45 (normally 22:00) Euston-Manchester goes via Crewe and Styal today, goes via Stoke, Crewe and Stockport on 11/1/22, basically gets routed around planned engineering work. All its calls after Nuneaton are to set down only, which means that the railway doesn't have to cater to pick up passengers at Lichfield, Tamworth, Stoke or Crewe, and it doesn't stop at Wilmslow. Its previous incarnation called at Macclesfield also, but that's now been dropped completely.
The Sectional Appendix is vital here, but I recall that a diversion via Stafford for a service normally using the direct Colwich-Hixon-Meaford routing is allowed without question, but most of the other alternatives would normally be questioned by a driver I suspect.

EDIT See #44 and other posts in that thread for more examples.

NW5009 - COLWICH JN TO CHEADLE HULME Colwich Jn To Stone Jn
Virgin Trains diverted via Stafford. Down and Up trains booked to run via Meaford Crossing L.C. (CCTV) to or from Stoke-On-Trent may be diverted via Stafford without previous warning and Drivers so routed need not observe the requirements of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2.
If a Down train is booked to call at Stoke-On-Trent or Macclesfield, Drivers of trains on the Down Slow line must stop and challenge the route at Searchlight Lane Junction (signal SC5609) if not routed towards Stone Junction. Drivers of trains on the Down Fast line must stop and challenge the route at Norton Bridge Junction (signal SC3605) if not routed towards Stone Junction.
Dated: 31/05/16

 

[_toommm_]

Do TPE still sign Manchester-Wigan via Wilmslow & Crewe? I know this was used as a diversion to Wigan Northwestern due to engineering works a couple of years ago, they ran trains to Crewe where the train would then head up to Wigan NW via WCML.

As for Cross Country I know that a couple of years ago Cross Country signed an interesting diversion from Stoke to Stafford which was from Stone to Rugeley Trent Valley where it would reverse and head to Stafford, not to sure if this can still happen these days.

Wasn't it just one train, where they were route conducted? I think I remember reading that on here.

 

[zwk500]

As for Cross Country I know that a couple of years ago Cross Country signed an interesting diversion from Stoke to Stafford which was from Stone to Rugeley Trent Valley where it would reverse and head to Stafford, not to sure if this can still happen these days.

The move is still possible to be signalled, but only into the Chase line platform at Rugeley. Not sure if Voyagers are restricted from that one. Do XC sign via Kidsgrove? I'd expect that to be preferred over reversing at Rugeley TV.

 

[jfollows]

Voyagers are allowed on the Walsall-Rugeley line: (NW1004 below) (from https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo... (North) Sectional Appendix December 2021.pdf)

 

[Watershed]

Do XC sign via Kidsgrove?

I think you mean via Alsager but yes, a limited number of their drivers do.

 

[zwk500]

I think you mean via Alsager but yes, a limited number of their drivers do.

Thank you for getting ahead of me! Yes I did mean via Alsager.

 

[vlad]

As for Cross Country I know that a couple of years ago Cross Country signed an interesting diversion from Stoke to Stafford which was from Stone to Rugeley Trent Valley where it would reverse and head to Stafford, not to sure if this can still happen these days.

I did Stoke to Birmingham a few years ago, which ran via Hixon and Tamworth before reversing in the platforms at Nuneaton and heading back via Water Orton. It took about the same amount of time as the usual route via Stafford and Wolverhampton.

I'd assume this isn't a diversion that XC do very often but there shouldn't be any issue with Voyagers on the WCML unless XC and VT Voyagers are that different.

 

[73128]

Westbury Station or Westbury avoider. Frome Station or Frome avoider. Approach to Reading Station from the south, via the feeder main or the old way.

Didcot or Didcot avoider

 

[Efini92]

Only if you're not booked to stop at/been given a "not to stop order" for University. Otherwise you stop and challenge.

It would seem the local instruction doesn’t take that into consideration when it says up direction Crosscountry trains.

 

[class ep-09]

Not sure if it was mentioned before .

Leaving Ealing Broadway towards Acton Main Line you can do Acton Dive Under or straight Up Relief without questioning , but I think 8xx are banned from Dive Under .

 

[Nippy]

Not sure if it was mentioned before .

Leaving Ealing Broadway towards Acton Main Line you can do Acton Dive Under or straight Up Relief without questioning , but I think 8xx are banned from Dive Under .

8xx are no longer banned through the Dive Under line, freight trains are banned through there.

 

[BluePenguin]

8xx are no longer banned through the Dive Under line, freight trains are banned through there.

Why were they previously banned?