Birmingham New Street Historic Services

[Jorge Da Silva]

What former services used to run into New Street that don’t run now? When did they start and cease?

 

[thenorthern]

Since privatisation services that I know have been cut include.

Swindon services ceased in 2003 they were run by Virgin Trains Cross Country, Poole Servies were cut back to Bournemouth in 2003. Services to London Paddington, Swansea and Portsmouth Harbour were withdrawn in 2003 as well. There were services from Birmingham to Scotland via Bolton which were split at Manchester Piccadilly in 2004 I think.

There was an hourly service to Lincoln Central via Leicester but it was split into to services both terminating at Leicester in December 2007 I think. The services to Brighton were withdrawn by CrossCountry in 2008.

Central Trains used to operate an odd pattern of services some of which I think ran through to Skegness.

 

[ac6000cw]

How far back into history do you want to go? - the station opened more than 160 years ago...

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How far back into history do you want to go? - the station opened more than 160 years ago...

Probably since the creation of BR

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Since privatisation services that I know have been cut include.

Swindon services ceased in 2003 they were run by Virgin Trains Cross Country, Poole Servies were cut back to Bournemouth in 2003. Services to London Paddington, Swansea and Portsmouth Harbour were withdrawn in 2003 as well. There were services from Birmingham to Scotland via Bolton which were split at Manchester Piccadilly in 2004 I think.

There was an hourly service to Lincoln Central via Leicester but it was split into to services both terminating at Leicester in December 2007 I think. The services to Brighton were withdrawn by CrossCountry in 2008.

Central Trains used to operate an odd pattern of services some of which I think ran through to Skegness.

Did Lincoln services really exist until that recently?

 

[Ianno87]

Did Lincoln services really exist until that recently?

No, Lincoln wasn't as recent as 2007, and certainly no later than 2005 - possibly 2003ish?

 

[30907]

Probably since the creation of BR

Ignoring Summer Saturdays, the Pines Express to Bournemouth via Bath, a daily train to Cleethorpes, and more recently services to Brighton, Dover, Norwich, and Inverness. Some local routes too - Ashchurch via Redditch comes to mind.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Ignoring Summer Saturdays, the Pines Express to Bournemouth via Bath, a daily train to Cleethorpes, and more recently services to Brighton, Dover, Norwich, and Inverness. Some local routes too - Ashchurch via Redditch comes to mind.

Cleethorpes is my hometown. When did they cease? I know Brighton was 2008 as CrossCountry didn't have to run down there beyond that date. Dover i think was the late 90's.

 

[ac6000cw]

Locally, it gained the Stourbridge (-Kidderminster) line services from Snow Hill, when that closed in the late 1960s/early 1970s, and then lost them again to a re-opened Snow Hill in 1995.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Locally, it gained the Stourbridge (-Kidderminster) line services from Snow Hill, when that closed in the late 1960s/early 1970s, and then lost them again to a re-opened Snow Hill in 1995.

Didn't some services continue until 2004?

 

[DavidGrain]

I have travelled between New Street and Gatwick Airport on a direct train which is no longer possible. If I remember correctly I travelled via Reading but it has also been possible to travel via Kensington Olympia using the WCML.

A Eurostar feeder service used to run to Waterloo which was restricted to Eurostar passengers but I was once on Birmingham International when there was some disruption and an announcement was made that all passengers could use the train to New Street and to Wolverhampton.

Trains on the Stourbridge Line used to run into New Street between late 1960s and 1995 when they returned to serving Birmingham Snow Hill.

I cannot prove the truth of this this but I was told by a fellow schoolboy back in the late 1950s that there was one train each day which ran from New Street to St Pancras via Leicester, presumably something left over from pre-grouping days when New Street was two separate stations, LNWR & Midland.

I think one weekend because of engineering work Chiltern trains from Marylebone ran into New Street instead of Snow Hill.

I have twice seen trains operated by the (to me anyway) late lamented Wrexham and Shropshire Railway in New Street Station obviously on diversion as Virgin banned them from Birmingham and they had to do roundabout route to avoid New Street.

I have travelled to Lincoln on a direct train in the past but I don't remember if we went via Leicester, I think we went via Nottingham.

If we go back in history, ie before BR, then there were services on closed lines in the Birmingham area such as the Camp Hill Line (reopening planned), The Sutton Park Line (a campaign to re open) and the Harborne Line (no chance of reopening). A little further afield there are plans to reopen services on the line to Wolverhampton via Bescot (actually I have travelled that line by chance as I was on a non-stop train from Wolverhampton to Birmingham which was routed that way).

 

[ac6000cw]

Didn't some services continue until 2004?

Quite possibly (I wonder if there is still a 'route knowledge retention' train of some sort over the connecting line at Smethwick?)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I have travelled between New Street and Gatwick Airport on a direct train which is no longer possible. If I remember correctly I travelled via Reading but it has also been possible to travel via Kensington Olympia using the WCML.

A Eurostar feeder service used to run to Waterloo which was restricted to Eurostar passengers but I was once on Birmingham International when there was some disruption and an announcement was made that all passengers could use the train to New Street and to Wolverhampton.

Trains on the Stourbridge Line used to run into New Street between late 1960s and 1995 when they returned to serving Birmingham Snow Hill.

I cannot prove the truth of this this but I was told by a fellow schoolboy back in the late 1950s that there was one train each day which ran from New Street to St Pancras via Leicester, presumably something left over from pre-grouping days when New Street was two separate stations, LNWR & Midland.

I think one weekend because of engineering work Chiltern trains from Marylebone ran into New Street instead of Snow Hill.

I have twice seen trains operated by the (to me anyway) late lamented Wrexham and Shropshire Railway in New Street Station obviously on diversion as Virgin banned them from Birmingham and they had to do roundabout route to avoid New Street.

I have travelled to Lincoln on a direct train in the past but I don't remember if we went via Leicester, I think we went via Nottingham.

If we go back in history, ie before BR, then there were services on closed lines in the Birmingham area such as the Camp Hill Line (reopening planned), The Sutton Park Line (a campaign to re open) and the Harborne Line (no chance of reopening). A little further afield there are plans to reopen services on the line to Wolverhampton via Bescot (actually I have travelled that line by chance as I was on a non-stop train from Wolverhampton to Birmingham which was routed that way).

Thanks for the information, really helpful . Lincoln services via Nottingham makes sense and is it possible that this is now what is Lincoln-Nottingham (EMT) and Nottingham-Birmingham (XC) BOTH previously under Central Trains. In other words was it split in the early days of privatisation?

As for St Pancras, that is I think very much possible considering the fact the MR ran into Birmingham and I would be surprised if they didn't run New Street services until the 60's like they ran Glasgow services from St Pancras until the 60's.

 

[DavidGrain]

Didn't some services continue until 2004?

Actually after the return to Snow Hill, I think there was still one service per hour into New Street but I don't know when that finished.

Incidentally that route is still served by Cross Country but running non-stop between New Street and Cheltenham. An early morning train to Cardiff and two late night trains, one from Plymouth and one from Cardiff. otherwise all trains now run into Snow Hill. Earlier this year when we had the 'Beast from the East' I did see a train from Cardiff on that line because I think there was a points problem in the Bromsgrove area.

 

[DavidGrain]

Quite possibly (I wonder if there is still a 'route knowledge retention' train of some sort over the connecting line at Smethwick?)

See my post above about the Cross Country service. I have also done that connecting line on a rail excursion.

There is also a freight working over the connection line. The Tesco train runs to Daventry at about 10.30.each evening.

 

[Ken H]

Even after Snow Hill reopened I seem to remember late evening trains from Dorridge and Shirley going to New St so Moor St and Snow Hill could close early. Maybe on Sundays too.

Some trains from New st to Wolverhampton used go by Bescot then across to Wolverhampton via Wllenhall till recently - may still do. Last time I went that way it was an Arriva Trains Wales train going to Holyhead. (went all the way for £10 then across to Dublin) Wasnt there some reason for this in that the train didnt terminate at New St but came in via Smethwick then carried on via Duddeston with no end changing or change of crew?

I also did a west midlands ranger on the weekend they rebuilt the bridge where the Euston line went over the line between the then Saltley box and Proof House. Did Tamworth to Kings Norton by X country and also wolverhampton to international via willenhall, perry barr and stetchford.

 

[30907]

Cleethorpes is my hometown. When did they cease?

I don't know, but would guess mid 60s. It ran to Bournemouth on summer Saturdays, and for the last 2 years of services via the S and D to Exmouth via Templecombe.

I was told by a fellow schoolboy back in the late 1950s that there was one train each day which ran from New Street to St Pancras via Leicester, presumably something left over from pre-grouping days when New Street was two separate stations, LNWR & Midland..

I have travelled to Lincoln on a direct train in the past but I don't remember if we went via Leicester, I think we went via Nottingham.

Can't find a St Pancras to Birmingham in the 1910 Bradshaw. That's not to say they never ran, but they'd be random combinations like today's Buxton (?) to Clitheroe or Newcastle to Whitehaven.

 

[daodao]

Since privatisation services that I know have been cut include.

Swindon services ceased in 2003 they were run by Virgin Trains Cross Country, Poole Services were cut back to Bournemouth in 2003. Services to London Paddington, Swansea and Portsmouth Harbour were withdrawn in 2003 as well. There were services from Birmingham to Scotland via Bolton which were split at Manchester Piccadilly in 2004 I think.

There was an hourly service to Lincoln Central via Leicester but it was split into to services both terminating at Leicester in December 2007 I think. The services to Brighton were withdrawn by CrossCountry in 2008.

Central Trains used to operate an odd pattern of services some of which I think ran through to Skegness.

There used to be through carriages to Southampton via Cheltenham and Swindon, but these ceased many years before the MSWJ line closed in 1961.

 

[thenorthern]

The Matlock services for a while were sometimes extended to Birmingham, in those days though Matlock had a direct service to London.

Central Trains ran a few trains to Preston at one point as well.

No, Lincoln wasn't as recent as 2007, and certainly no later than 2005 - possibly 2003ish?

I think 2005ish may be right my mistake.

 

[Harbornite]

New Street to Harborne services started in 1874 and ended in November 1934.

 

[Harbornite]

Thanks for the information, really helpful . Lincoln services via Nottingham makes sense and is it possible that this is now what is Lincoln-Nottingham (EMT) and Nottingham-Birmingham (XC) BOTH previously under Central Trains. In other words was it split in the early days of privatisation?

As for St Pancras, that is I think very much possible considering the fact the MR ran into Birmingham and I would be surprised if they didn't run New Street services until the 60's like they ran Glasgow services from St Pancras until the 60's.

Despite being from Birmingham, I’d never considered the possibility of there having been St Pancras services.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... As for St Pancras, that is I think very much possible considering the fact the MR ran into Birmingham ...

The MR ran into Birmingham as a result of the origins o the company, ie York - Bristol.

... and I would be surprised if they didn't run New Street services until the 60's like they ran Glasgow services from St Pancras until the 60's.

Why would you "be surprised if they didnt'"? Birmingham New Street via MR metals to St Pancras would never be a competitive route compaced to either the LNWR or GWR routes.

Comparison with the latter-day (ie 60s) Glasgow services is simply not realistic. There were sound historical business reasons for these services (although they may never have been economically justified).

I don't want to say that there were 'never' any trains or through carriage services that did Brum - St Pancras, but they would not have been competitive in terms of schedules with the two direct lines.

It is possible that, on occasions, some trains were diverted via, eg via Leicester or Northampton-Bedford, perhaps in wartime or perhaps during electrification work, but I don't know of any instances.

I would say it is very possible that such diversions were discussed at times by operating staff - but that is a long way from actually running them.

My bet would be that there were never any such regular services in a competitive sense (as opposed to, say, operational convenience). This is how annoying fake history rumours originate and spread.

 

[Ken H]

Despite being from Birmingham, I’d never considered the possibility of there having been St Pancras services.

New St used to be 2 stations, a LNWR one and a Midland one. So its quite likely the Midland ran New Street (Midland station) to St P via Nuneaton and Wigston S curve.

 

[70014IronDuke]

New St used to be 2 stations, a LNWR one and a Midland one. So its quite likely the Midland ran New Street (Midland station) to St P via Nuneaton and Wigston S curve.

If you read my post, you can see I am aware of the Midland's historical role at New Street. But even using the Wigston south curve (and thus avoiding reversal at Leicester), why travel - what, 35 or so miles north east, ie in the wrong direction, taking about 40 minutes or more, before turning southwards to London? It simply does not make sense, except for special circumstances like diversions. In that time, rival LNW services would have been around Kilsby and GWR somewhere near Banbury - both well en route to their respective London termini - with the Midland train still facing a 95-mile run to St Pancras.

I suppose there might have been at some time in the past the odd train St Pancras - Leicester which dropped carriages there which then worked to Nuneaton/Brum in order to provide through carriages to places like Narborough and Hinkley, but the continuation to Birmingham would have been for Leicester and other passengers, not those from London.

 

[satisnek]

Didn't some services continue until 2004?

From memory, when the Jewellery Line first opened, Kidderminster services alternated between Snow Hill and New Street (which was a right pain if you were in Birmingham city centre and wanted to catch the next train home - no smartphones back then!). New Street trains then dwindled over the next few years, and by the time I started commuting to Droitwich in early 2004 there was (I think) just one New Street service remaining, which I sometimes used to catch when going home (I can recall it being a 158). This disappeared in the May 2004 timetable and from then on it was exclusively Snow Hill/Moor Street.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

From memory, when the Jewellery Line first opened, Kidderminster services alternated between Snow Hill and New Street (which was a right pain if you were in Birmingham city centre and wanted to catch the next train home - no smartphones back then!). New Street trains then dwindled over the next few years, and by the time I started commuting to Droitwich in early 2004 there was (I think) just one New Street service remaining, which I sometimes used to catch when going home (I can recall it being a 158). This disappeared in the May 2004 timetable and from then on it was exclusively Snow Hill/Moor Street.

Thanks

 

[Ken H]

If you read my post, you can see I am aware of the Midland's historical role at New Street. But even using the Wigston south curve (and thus avoiding reversal at Leicester), why travel - what, 35 or so miles north east, ie in the wrong direction, taking about 40 minutes or more, before turning southwards to London? It simply does not make sense, except for special circumstances like diversions. In that time, rival LNW services would have been around Kilsby and GWR somewhere near Banbury - both well en route to their respective London termini - with the Midland train still facing a 95-mile run to St Pancras.

I suppose there might have been at some time in the past the odd train St Pancras - Leicester which dropped carriages there which then worked to Nuneaton/Brum in order to provide through carriages to places like Narborough and Hinkley, but the continuation to Birmingham would have been for Leicester and other passengers, not those from London.

I quite agree, why would you?

Was there brand loyalty to the old pre-grouping companies? Were Midland trains better somehow than LNWR or GW ones?
But there were some quite odd through trains and slip carriages then.
The whole thing was like some massive turf war, I believe, as companies sought to encroach on their rivals territory, or defend their own.

 

[DavidGrain]

As I said I was told that New Street to St Pancras was possible by a fellow schoolboy in the late 1950s and I said that I had no way of verifying that. As Birmingham- London tickets were valid via any authorised route the same boy told me that he had done New Street to Marylebone by changing between the two stations in Rugby.

Going back in history there used to be a business man's train from New Street to London Broad Street in about 1910 which did the journey in 2 hours. I believe this was the first train to be called an Inter City Express as it served the cities of Birmingham and London.

As Ken H has mentioned turf wars between railway companies, I have read that the present Chiltern Line which was originally a joint operation between the Great Western and the Great Central was a result of a deal between the two companies to provide the GWR with a faster route from London to Birmingham avoiding Oxford and to keep the GCR out of Birmingham.

 

[Taunton]

I doubt the GCR were looking at Birmingham; the London extension and then their half share of the New Line through High Wycombe completely drained their finances. The new line was principally for them to escape from their Metropolitan Railway approach to London, both too congested and with the Met making difficulties.

Regarding New Street, by the 1980s this was the only significant station for Birmingham, Moor Street only handling suburban services southwards and Snow Hill was closed. It made a good nationwide hub. Since then there has been a progressive transfer of several services out of there to Moor Street-Snow Hill, and HS2 will introduce a third station. The city authorities only see passengers heading for Birmingham, not any use made for a wide range of connections across the country that are in no small part lost by this scatter of stations. Manchester seems to be going the same way.

Inter City was a name train of the Western Region, given shortly after nationalisation, between London and Birmingham.

 

[crosscity]

I have twice seen trains operated by the (to me anyway) late lamented Wrexham and Shropshire Railway in New Street Station obviously on diversion as Virgin banned them from Birmingham and they had to do roundabout route to avoid New Street.

Indeed via New Street was a diversionary route for W&SR trains. The last W&SR southbound train ever, the 13:28 Wrexham-Marylebone on 28/1/2011 ran via New St.

Some trains from New st to Wolverhampton used go by Bescot then across to Wolverhampton via Wllenhall till recently - may still do. Last time I went that way it was an Arriva Trains Wales train going to Holyhead. (went all the way for £10 then across to Dublin) Wasnt there some reason for this in that the train didnt terminate at New St but came in via Smethwick then carried on via Duddeston with no end changing or change of crew?

The last Class 47--hauled Holyhead trains did the opposite of what you say - the southbound services went from Wolverhampton to New St via Bescot and Aston, and thus were ready to form the return working to Holyhead immediately, with no reversal, engines changing ends or topping and tailing. These trains stopped running in September 2003. Incidentally these ran via Crewe, so on that score too no longer run (the Holyhead's now use the slower route via Shrewsbury).