Birmingham New Street pollution

[Ken H]

It can go away by further electrification, not running diesel under the wires etc. Yes of course it costs money but the problem is not insuperable. The threads keep reappearing because something needs doing long term. IMHO. That is why we get repeat threads periodically

or use bimodes, or Cl 319 conversions.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

or use bimodes, or Cl 319 conversions.

Also options which to be fair is why I included “ etc” in my sentence.

 

[Llanigraham]

pity they didnt build the extra pantograph coaches for voyagers to make them bi-modes

And what about all the other routes to feed into New St.
Funny but I don't see any Voyagers here, or in Worcester.

 

[DavidGrain]

MODS
You might wish to combine this with
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/birmingham-new-street-pollution.168184/

 

[S-Bahn]

New Street was probably re-built on the principle that the engineers in the 1960's believed British Rail would have continued electrification programmes. So by 2000 all diesel use in the area would have been eliminated.

Unfortunately they weren't to know that Thatcher would come along, ignore the engineers and set privatisation in motion.

It's quite simple really. The whole X Country route needs to be electrified to the major southern hubs (Exeter and Southampton at least) and electrification needs to extend out as far as possible to the towns and cities in the surrounding area, making bi-mode where most of the major running is electric a reality.

 

[Llanigraham]

New Street was probably re-built on the principle that the engineers in the 1960's believed British Rail would have continued electrification programmes. So by 2000 all diesel use in the area would have been eliminated.

Unfortunately they weren't to know that Thatcher would come along, ignore the engineers and set privatisation in motion.

It's quite simple really. The whole X Country route needs to be electrified to the major southern hubs (Exeter and Southampton at least) and electrification needs to extend out as far as possible to the towns and cities in the surrounding area, making bi-mode where most of the major running is electric a reality.

But it isn't just Cross Country, is it?
See my comments above.

 

[duncanp]

Thatcher would come along, ignore the engineers and set privatisation in motion.

The railways were not privatised until after Mrs Thatcher left office.

It is now 28 years since she left office, and more than 5 years since she died.

So the idea that Mrs Thatcher is responsible, even partly, for the problems of pollution at Birmingham New Street is complete nonsense.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The railways were not privatised until after Mrs Thatcher left office.

It is now 28 years since she left office, and more than 5 years since she died.

So the idea that Mrs Thatcher is responsible, even partly, for the problems of pollution at Birmingham New Street is complete nonsense.

Absolutely totally correct. Thatcher thought railway privatization a privatization too far. Under her you had the biggest electrification program in UK history. Now 13 years under Labor about 10 miles got electrified. Pollution at Birmingham New Street does not even 1% lay at Margaret Thatchers feet. I do not want to get this thread locked because of politics but please let’s get facts straight. Please

 

[S-Bahn]

Gents - you missed my salient point. The Labour Governments of the 1970's were planning on increasing the number of electrification schemes as presented by BR.

The incoming Conservative government of 1979 chose not to implement those ideas. Hence "chose to ignore the engineers".

Also Thatcher chose to tear up the post war Keynesian consensus and implement her far more radical ideas based on Hayek and Friedman. Her disciples may have carried out the actual privatisation, but she set the idea in motion that the state shouldn't be running national infrastructure.

 

[S-Bahn]

And it's a legitimate argument to be made - The BR engineers and project managers in the 50's and 60's clearly believed at the time that the modernisation of the West Coast mainline would be the template for the rest of the country. So they probably designed New Street on the basis that Diesel use would be eliminated in the area within 30-40 years.

 

[duncanp]

It was Mrs Thatcher who authorised the electrification of the East Coast main line in 1986, and of course refused consent for the closure of the Settle and Carlisle line in 1989.

She also chose not to implement the recommendations of the Serpell report in the early 1980's, which would have seen a drastic pruning of the network on the scale of Beeching.

The pollution levels at Birmingham New Street must be due, at least in part, to the increase in the number of trains in recent years.

 

[S-Bahn]

The illustrious former PM also scrapped the APT programme despite many of the technical issues having been resolved or mitigated.

The Serpell report was commissioned by the Thatcher Government in 1982. When published it was widely opposed by the opposition parties, the railway industry and the press.

I seem to recall electrification of the ECML actually started in 1976.

The point I am making is that BR had planned to increase electrification nationally and this can be seen in some of the station designs of that era, such as New Street.

I would agree that the number of trains travelling through New Street has probably increased in recent years. Certainly the passenger numbers have.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And built the channel tunnel

 

[S-Bahn]

And built the channel tunnel

Which was not a novel idea in 1988. The UK and France entered into an initial agreement to build a modern railway channel tunnel in 1964.

Gents - we can play Thatcher Top-Trumps all day long if you like (and trust me if you want to do this accounting I'm happy to continue elsewhere), but we are talking about the pollution in New Street in this thread.

My view as clearly stated previously is there was a long term view when New Street was rebuilt that electrification schemes would continue. Those schemes did not continue on the speed and scale that they should of.

That is spilt milk under the bridge.

The answer today, which I have also already stated, is to increase the roll out of electrification so that diesel use in built up areas is significantly reduced (such as the X-country routes and other lines into New Street from the surrounding area).

 

[6Gman]

The answer today, which I have also already stated, is to increase the roll out of electrification so that diesel use in built up areas is significantly reduced (such as the X-country routes and other lines into New Street from the surrounding area).

Unfortunately our current railway civil and electrical engineering industry seems incapable of mastering even its current commitments (cough, cough ... Oxford, Bath) so I'm not sure how it would cope with extra projects.

 

[xotGD]

With proper loco-hauled trains the clag is generated down at the end of the station. No issue for waiting passengers. With the introduction of HSTs a source of fumes was introduced at the back of the train. On departure the rear power car leaves a trail of plight right through the station. Roll on to Voyagers, and the exhausts are in the middle of the train so discharge into the body of the station while standing at the platform and even worse on departure.

Progress.

 

[S-Bahn]

Unfortunately our current railway civil and electrical engineering industry seems incapable of mastering even its current commitments (cough, cough ... Oxford, Bath) so I'm not sure how it would cope with extra projects.

I would concur. It is indeed a scandal that electrification has been postponed/cancelled along the GWML.

 

[S-Bahn]

But it isn't just Cross Country, is it?
See my comments above.

Indeed. But the X-country routes are an obvious candidate for an electrification project though. So a Worcester/Hereford Bi-mode could switch to electric when it merges onto the line south of Bromsgrove. Although I would also extend electrification as far as reasonably possible which could include include Worcester and other towns and cities surrounding Birmingham (Kidderminster, Shrewsbury etc).

 

[Llanigraham]

Problem is, who pays?
We don't seem to have a government that is interested.

 

[TH172341]

Did surprise me that Abellio WMT ordered the CAF Civity units that will operate the Shrewsbury and Hereford routes - would have thought some Stadler Bi Modes could have been a good chance to make use of the electric wires up to Wolverhampton and down to Bromsgrove.

 

[Mikey C]

Did surprise me that Abellio WMT ordered the CAF Civity units that will operate the Shrewsbury and Hereford routes - would have thought some Stadler Bi Modes could have been a good chance to make use of the electric wires up to Wolverhampton and down to Bromsgrove.

I can see a scenario where WMT are forced to replace them with Bi Modes to eliminate diesel workings through Birmingham.

As an aside, authorisation for the electrification of the Cross-City line was given in 1990, so just after Thatcher. The last major electrification project in the area until the extension to Rugeley?

 

[Chris 76]

I recently responded to the consultation on the Transport for West Midlands Rail Investment Strategy 2018-47. The strategy hardly mentions future electrification, only specifying Lichfield to Burton-on-Trent for any extension of the cross-city line to Burton. I commented that: 'The strategy should commit to electrification of all major local rail routes for operational and environmental benefits. Air quality concerns at city centre stations, particularly Birmingham New Street, and likely new legislation on air quality, should encourage commitment to reduce and ultimately eliminate diesel passenger trains in the West Midlands region'.
I can see gradual electrification of most non-electrified WM lines on the back of other schemes:
1. Chiltern electrification, being talked up for when it's fleet replacement time. That could kickstart Snow Hill lines electrification-to Stourbridge at least I'd hope, preferably Kidderminster.
2. Chiltern would also mean that Leamington-Banbury, a big chunk of the 'electric spine' would be done. By then Didcot-Oxford should be electrified, so add in Oxford-Aynho Junction and Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton to complete the Reading to West Midlands electrification.
3. Optimistically hoping that full Midland Main Line electrification to the East Midlands and Sheffield is reauthorised at some point in the 2020s (regardless of HS2 and the electrification to Chesterfield/Sheffield for that), and Derby to Birmingham electrification would be a logical addon. Also hoping by then Northern Powerhouse will have electrified Leeds-York and Sheffield-Doncaster/Wakefield. Cross-country trains could then be electric from Scotland to Birmingham and Reading, or bi-mode for non-electrified bits and from Bromsgrove to Bristol and beyond.
4. Any electrification from Felixstowe/Ipswich to Peterborough, Leicester and Nuneaton for freight should be extended from Nuneaton to Birmingham. Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury should be electrified to complete the regional routes from New Street. Bi-modes for services from Birmingham to Wales.
5. Difficult to see electrification to Worcester/Hereford any time soon, although any electrification from Bromsgrove to Gloucester and Westerleigh Junction should surely include the Worcester loop, and from Droitwich to Kidderminster or whereever Snow Hill lines are electrifed to. Also, while the short single track line from Hatton to Stratford-on-Avon could be electrified with Chiltern/Snow Hill lines, the route via Henley in Arden is harder to justify for the wires, at least south of the higher frequency limit at Whitlocks End. But bi-modes or battery hybrids can plug these gaps.
The short answer to New Street pollution is: bi-modes for Cross Country, and for Virgin to stop the mad use of Voyagers from London to Scotland.

 

[HowardGWR]

The last major electrification project in the area until the extension to Rugeley?

Well, there is HS2.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As an aside, authorisation for the electrification of the Cross-City line was given in 1990, so just after Thatcher. The last major electrification project in the area until the extension to Rugeley?

February 1990 by Cecil Parkinson Transport Minister and Margaret Thatcher was still prime minister

 

[AndrewE]

Problem is, who pays?

The rest of us do... with our health.

We don't seem to have a government that is interested.

The problem is the myopia of the decision-makers protected in their Westminster bubble, with the benefits of widespread electrified railways and the congestion zone all around them.

Well, there is HS2.

I haven't seen many trains arriving on it yet. And how is it going to help reduce diesel working on suburban trains?

 

[Chris125]

Did surprise me that Abellio WMT ordered the CAF Civity units that will operate the Shrewsbury and Hereford routes - would have thought some Stadler Bi Modes could have been a good chance to make use of the electric wires up to Wolverhampton and down to Bromsgrove.

It's a crying shame that all these new DMUs have been ordered on the cusp of hybrid technology taking off - if any station would benefit it's New Street.

 

[Mikey C]

It's a crying shame that all these new DMUs have been ordered on the cusp of hybrid technology taking off - if any station would benefit it's New Street.

It's not as if the CAF units couldn't be sent elsewhere, I don't imagine the Sprinters have many years left in them and there will be rural lines elsewhere in the country where air quality isn't a problem

 

[DavidGrain]

As an aside, authorisation for the electrification of the Cross-City line was given in 1990, so just after Thatcher. The last major electrification project in the area until the extension to Rugeley?

And that was a fight because London could not understand why anyone should want to electrify the line from a small city in Staffordshire to a small town in Worcestershire. It had to be explained to them that there was a rather large city half way between Lichfield and Redditch. The extension of the Cross City line to Bromsgrove which became operational this year would rank ahead of Rugeley which we are still awaiting completion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a crying shame that all these new DMUs have been ordered on the cusp of hybrid technology taking off - if any station would benefit it's New Street.

I totally agree. Same with Northern, who have a good many services for which bi-modes would work well.

 

[DavidGrain]

As WMT have ordered 26 CAF units I presume the main requirement will be for the Snow Hill routes none of which run under wires so it would not make economic sense to order bi-modes.

The Worcester and Hereford services are threatened with being diverted over the Camp Hill line so only the Kings Norton to Bromsgrove section plus the short distance from New Street station to Grand Junction would be under the wires so again bi-mode is unlikely to be economic.

Perhaps the case can be made for the Shrewsbury trains to be bi-mode but you then have the case of a small class of stock which would become route specific as they would not be an advantage on other lines.

EDIT I have just remembered that the Worcester and Hereford services take the Fast Lines between Kings Norton and Longbridge which are not wired so they would have to mix in with the stoppers.