Birmingham to Bradford: Not able to buy extra ticket onboard then threatened with PF at Bradford?

[transmanche]

The world were you could jump aboard a train (especially involving travel between and in and around large conurbations) and expect to purchase on board/at destination has simply long gone.

That's irrelevant to this discussion.

What is pertinent is that someone travelling on an inter-city or inter-regional service might reasonably expect to be able to ask the conductor/train manager to sell them a ticket for onward travel that day.

I've done that lots of times without issue. I did it just last week when my plans had to change en-route. In fact, I'm sure there are some people on the forum who actively choose to do this on-board on the basis that the conductor might earn a bit of commission on the sale...

 

[yorkie]

Whereas I frequently do split tickets and get the advances asap, but only buy tickets for the missing bit at the start or end of the journey on the day of travel. Why should I spend my money before I have to?

That was the case for me, I purchased the advance from Bradford about 5 five weeks before travelling.

I planned to get the Leeds-Bradford single on the day of travel.

Just a word of advice: when you buy the initial ticket(s) the contract is formed at that point. If the timetable changes (as has happened a lot lately) youe contract still applies based on the tickets you have purchased. However if you have chosen not to buy all tickets to complete your journey, this may be problematic for you in the event that one or more of the trains are rescheduled.

There have been many cases recently where passengers found that their planned itinerary was no longer possible on the day of travel. However they were still entitled to onward transport (including by taxi in some cases) and/or delay compensation based on the original itinerary at the time the tickets were purchased.

It may also be beneficial to purchase all tickets from a single retailer in one transaction (ideally with a through itinerary) as that retailer may be required to assist you in the event of problems.

I am not sure there is much to be said now that hasn't been: we know it's advisable to buy all tickets for the journey before travel commences (and ideally at the same time if practicable) and we know that th OP wasn't given thr safest advice on th train to Leeds. We can be reasonably sure a PF appeal would have been successful if that had happened, but it didn't, so that's a hypothetical discussion.

 

[transmanche]

What many have pointed out is that attempting to purchase a walk-up ticket after you've travelled (having had an opportunity to purchase before travel) is leaving yourself liable to end up in hot water.

If this was a case of starting a journey without a ticket, I would agree with you. But that's not what happened here.

 

[bahnause]

I was actually in the queue at New Street to buy the Leeds to Bradford ticket but the big queue didn’t go down enough and I left for the platform with ten minutes to my departure.

Because he was boarding at a staffed station, and was changing trains at a staffed station. While passengers are entitled to purchase on board, the railway is under no obligation to make on-board sales.

Well, he tried... Last time I wanted to collect my ticket at Victoria I had to queue for 20 minutes.

 

[bnm]

The world were you could jump aboard a train (especially involving travel between and in and around large conurbations) and expect to purchase on board/at destination has simply long gone.

Has it? Is Bristol not a fairly large conurbation? Avonmouth, Clifton Down, Stapleton Road, Bedminster, Parson Street, Patchway, and more... all city stations where buying on board or at destination is not long gone.

Stations in and around Exeter and Plymouth too.

Those are major conurbations I know of with stations lacking any facilities to by tickets. I'm sure it's true for nearly every other major UK conurbation, excepting London, to have stations without facilities.

 

[transmanche]

Whereas I frequently do split tickets and get the advances asap, but only buy tickets for the missing bit at the start or end of the journey on the day of travel. Why should I spend my money before I have to?

Just a word of advice: when you buy the initial ticket(s) the contract is formed at that point. If the timetable changes (as has happened a lot lately) youe contract still applies based on the tickets you have purchased. However if you have chosen not to buy all tickets to complete your journey, this may be problematic for you in the event that one or more of the trains are rescheduled.

FWIW, the current timetable disruption is one of the reasons why I have bought advances without the 'missing bits'.

This coming Saturday I have a journey where I have bought advances for as much of the journey as is possible. (There are no through advances available for the entire journey, so I need to split and purchase a walk-up fare for the final leg.) I am not confident (given current circumstances) that the train will arrive on time and make my preferred connection. If I don't make the connection, rather than wait for the next service there is an alternative I could take via a different route with a different fare. Rather than faff about trying to get permission to take a different route should that be necessary, I've decided to wait and purchase the appropriate ticket when it becomes clear if I will make the connection or not.

So it's more convenient for me to purchase my walk-up ticket on the day of travel.

I have done the same on exactly the same journey previously and had no problem is receiving a delay-repay refund for the entire journey.

 

[najaB]

If this was a case of starting a journey without a ticket, I would agree with you.

As has been pointed out a number of times already - the OP held tickets for Birmingham to Leeds. He was at Leeds...

 

[Eric]

Yes both are equally valid but the key phrase is 'buy" the OP's problems arose from his decision not to buy a ticket between Leeds and Bradford when he purchased his AP ticket from BHM to Leeds and then again at Birmingham New St before he set off and again at Leeds when he was interchanging.

Hi Gareth, I’ve already posted that I intended to buy a ticket. I was in the queue to get served at Birmingham New Street, but after waiting five minutes to get served, I went down to the platforms as it was within ten minutes before the departure and I didn’t want to miss my train.

You can’t say I made the decision not to buy a ticket when I tried at Birmingham l, on the XC train and also on the Leeds - Bradford train.

All I’m guilty of is not allowing more time to purchase the Leeds - Bradford ticket at New Street, but how was I supposed to know the queue was going to have 20+ people wanting to get served.

It’s time common sense was used.

 

[island]

That's such a leading question, I doubt a magistrate would permit it.

Leading questions are permitted in cross-examination.

 

[yorkie]

If I don't make the connection, rather than wait for the next service there is an alternative I could take via a different route with a different fare. Rather than faff about trying to get permission to take a different route should that be necessary, I've decided to wait and purchase the appropriate ticket when it becomes clear if I will make the connection or not.

So it's more convenient for me to purchase my walk-up ticket on the day of travel.

I have done the same on exactly the same journey previously and had no problem is receiving a delay-repay refund for the entire journey.

But bear in mind that if the timetable changes for the onward connections, you may have an issue. For example, if you take the OP's Birmingham to Bradford journey, if the connecting servies(s) from Leeds to Bradford were re-timed, and the OP was on a late night service, then there is a risk that no contract will be in place to convey the passenger to their intended destination. This is a much bigger risk late at night, and not really an issue with earlier services.

Similar issues can occur if you have Advance fares for the start & end bits and leave it until nearer the day of travel before booking the middle bit. If that train gets retimed before you booked, then you may have a problem.

I am not suggesting people cannot delay purchasing bits of their journey, and in some cases it may be best for that passenger to do so, but I am advising that it can cause problems, as it did for the OP in this case and as it has in numerous other cases in which I have been involved in providing advice for recently.

 

[sheff1]

Careful what you wish for. In some countries with railway systems considered better than ours, buy before you board is absolute - no exceptions, whatsoever.

And that is fine when such countries provide ticket buying facilities at all stations from which a which a passenger can buy any ticket they want/need.

The problem in GB is different regimes/practices in different places - even down to the level that a succession of people employed by the same TOC will give totally different advice when asked the same question regarding ticket purchase.

 

[sheff1]

The world were you could jump aboard a train (especially involving travel between and in and around large conurbations) and expect to purchase on board/at destination has simply long gone.

Well that confirms that you live in a different world to me.

 

[AlterEgo]

And that is fine when such countries provide ticket buying facilities at all stations from which a which a passenger can buy any ticket they want/need.

In Switzerland there is no excuse for boarding without a ticket. Not even if the ticket machines are broken or out of service. You either buy a mobile ticket, or use another medium, or don’t travel.

Very simple. As I said, it’s the simplest solution, so people ought to be careful what they ask for.

 

[MikeWh]

In Switzerland there is no excuse for boarding without a ticket. Not even if the ticket machines are broken or out of service. You either buy a mobile ticket, or use another medium, or don’t travel.

So a vulnerable person with cash to buy a ticket home could be stranded because the machine wasn't working? At least on Metrolink you can use the help-point to get an authorisation code.

 

[bahnause]

In Switzerland there is no excuse for boarding without a ticket. Not even if the ticket machines are broken or out of service. You either buy a mobile ticket, or use another medium, or don’t travel.

As I wrote in Birmingham to Bradford: Not able to buy extra ticket onboard then threatened with PF at Bradford? that‘s an urban myth. Explain it to the guard or if you habe time call the helpline number published at the ticket machine.

In this case the SBB guard would have sold the ticket for the last part of the journey on board (but with a service charge of 10 CHF)

 

[farleigh]

In Switzerland there is no excuse for boarding without a ticket. Not even if the ticket machines are broken or out of service. You either buy a mobile ticket, or use another medium, or don’t travel.

Very simple. As I said, it’s the simplest solution, so people ought to be careful what they ask for.

This is totally incorrect.
We were stranded at a rail station in Switzerland, and a very helpful member of staff allowed us to travel. We paid the money later. In England I would expect an RPI to take great pleasure in denying us travel or trying to extract as much as possible from us if we had dared to try to get home.

 

[najaB]

In England I would expect an RPI to take great pleasure in denying us travel or trying to extract as much as possible from us if we had dared to try to get home.

I suppose having such low expectations means that you'll seldom be disappointed. On the other hand, I've seen guards/RPIs using their discretion to allow ticketless passengers to travel on many occasions (having benefited from such discretion myself at least twice).

Were I to find myself stranded at a station I would approach a member of railway staff and ask for assistance, with a reasonable expectation that they would help in some way.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi Gareth, I’ve already posted that I intended to buy a ticket. I was in the queue to get served at Birmingham New Street, but after waiting five minutes to get served, I went down to the platforms as it was within ten minutes before the departure and I didn’t want to miss my train.

You can’t say I made the decision not to buy a ticket when I tried at Birmingham l, on the XC train and also on the Leeds - Bradford train.

All I’m guilty of is not allowing more time to purchase the Leeds - Bradford ticket at New Street, but how was I supposed to know the queue was going to have 20+ people wanting to get served.

It’s time common sense was used.

Eric -the Airedale and Wharfedale lines have been a Penalty Fare area since December last year and by your posting history you would appear to be a regular user of them so you should have known the potential consequences- you took a risk boarding at Leeds without a ticket and got away with it perhaps the Booking Office staff member recognized you as a regular who buys tickets and gave your story the benefit of doubt based on their previous experience of you - I don't know. However you can't expect that sort of thing to happen all the time or elsewhere. You've been lucky.

As other posters have repeatedly pointed out there's a crucial difference in the way it actually works versus the way people want it to work, I would suggest its common sense to not enter a Penalty Fare area unless you have a valid ticket no matter what "the man on platform/train said".

 

[Bantamzen]

The Airedale and Wharfedale lines have been a Penalty Fare area since December last year and by your posting history you would appear to be a regular user of them so should have known the potential consequences- you took a risk boarding at Leeds without a ticket and got away with it perhaps the Booking Office staff member recognized you as a regular who buys tickets and gave your story the benefit of doubt based on their previous experience of you - I don't know. However you can't expect that sort of thing to happen all the time or elsewhere.

As other posters have repeatedly pointed out there's a crucial difference in the way it actually works versus the way people want it to work, I would suggest its common sense to not enter a Penalty Fare area unless you have a valid ticket.

I was going to make a similar comment, and to add that the OP was on-board a train at Leeds that was filling up prior to departure and so he ought to have been aware that the guard might not be able to undertake revenue duties. So although the gateline staff would not have been aware of this, the OP was and really ought to have bought an onward ticket having arrived at Leeds being armed with the knowledge that he might not be able to buy on-board, and that he was entering a penalty fare zone & could be challenged at any point up to the gateline at Bradford. Its all very well intending to buy a ticket, but he had two opportunities to buy the connecting ticket, one at Birmingham which he abandoned, & one at Leeds he chose not to use to make a quick connection.

In all honesty this should be one to chalk up as experience. Trying to find loopholes or make excuses for this may well in the long run have the help fuel the effect of TOCs / DfT just cracking down harder. The bottom line is, if you can buy before boarding, do so. It will save you a lot of hassle in future.

 

[142blue]

I'm on the fence on this one.

1. How long is reasonable to queue at BHM?
2. Should the guard have stated get it on the next train?
3. Did the booking office person at Bradford show some discretion in light of the evidence presented?

For me:

1. As long as it takes realistically. Of course it's nice to be served quickly but I can go in my bank or post office and queue times vary. Does BHM have ticket machines? Was that not a better option if it's a big queue.

2. Absolutely not and here in lies the issue. I can not advise what another TOC should allow as who am I to make decisions on their behalf. I can ask a guard or phone up if I've something I need but this is the biggest problem here. The advice should have been buy at Leeds for your next journey.

3. In this instance in light of the evidence shown and a willingness to pay the fare required I think discretion is key and it brought it to a resolution

It all in all sounds like a situation that could have been avoided had the full complement of tickets been purchased before travel but has been worsened by the wrong advice being given on the XC train

 

[Eric]

Eric -the Airedale and Wharfedale lines have been a Penalty Fare area since December last year and by your posting history you would appear to be a regular user of them so you should have known the potential consequences- you took a risk boarding at Leeds without a ticket and got away with it perhaps the Booking Office staff member recognized you as a regular who buys tickets and gave your story the benefit of doubt based on their previous experience of you - I don't know. However you can't expect that sort of thing to happen all the time or elsewhere. You've been lucky.

As other posters have repeatedly pointed out there's a crucial difference in the way it actually works versus the way people want it to work, I would suggest its common sense to not enter a Penalty Fare area unless you have a valid ticket no matter what "the man on platform/train said".

I was going to make a similar comment, and to add that the OP was on-board a train at Leeds that was filling up prior to departure and so he ought to have been aware that the guard might not be able to undertake revenue duties. So although the gateline staff would not have been aware of this, the OP was and really ought to have bought an onward ticket having arrived at Leeds being armed with the knowledge that he might not be able to buy on-board, and that he was entering a penalty fare zone & could be challenged at any point up to the gateline at Bradford. Its all very well intending to buy a ticket, but he had two opportunities to buy the connecting ticket, one at Birmingham which he abandoned, & one at Leeds he chose not to use to make a quick connection.

In all honesty this should be one to chalk up as experience. Trying to findloopholes or make excuses for this may well in the long run have the help fuel the effect of TOCs / DfT just cracking down harder. The bottom line is, if you can buy before boarding, do so. It will save you a lot of hassle in future.

I'm on the fence on this one.

1. How long is reasonable to queue at BHM?
2. Should the guard have stated get it on the next train?
3. Did the booking office person at Bradford show some discretion in light of the evidence presented?

For me:

1. As long as it takes realistically. Of course it's nice to be served quickly but I can go in my bank or post office and queue times vary. Does BHM have ticket machines? Was that not a better option if it's a big queue.

2. Absolutely not and here in lies the issue. I can not advise what another TOC should allow as who am I to make decisions on their behalf. I can ask a guard or phone up if I've something I need but this is the biggest problem here. The advice should have been buy at Leeds for your next journey.

3. In this instance in light of the evidence shown and a willingness to pay the fare required I think discretion is key and it brought it to a resolution

It all in all sounds like a situation that could have been avoided had the full complement of tickets been purchased before travel but has been worsened by the wrong advice being given on the XC train

I'm not trying to find loopholes or make excuses. I know the Leeds-Ilkley and Skipton lines have been Penalty Fare areas since last year.

I will purchase my tickets all in advance from now on, but my concern is the XC train manager Keith nearly landing me with a penalty fare.

 

[IanXC]

As the OPs question has been more than adequately answered, I'm not sure there is anything further to be constructively discussed on this thread.