Bizarre morning on Thameslink (15/11)

[ChristopherJ]

As a daily user of the Brighton Mainline, 'effing the fare to Hassocks is waaaay to early in the journey and has potential to get caught - which is what happened. They should have bought it halfway to Balcombe, instead!

Just saying - not implying I do any fare evading myself!

 

[Minstral25]

well my station is ungated Oyster and when a Tlk disgorges its passengers and less than half tap out thats a good indicator to me. Yes of course some will still be on season tickets and day tickets but even if its only 10% is that an acceptable level of fare evasion today?

Redhill platform 3?

 

[davews]

Well this seems to be getting pretty common. This afternoon RPI officer comes round checking tickets just after Staines. Young girl opposite indicates she has to buy her ticket.... RPI wanders off, she buys it and I can see it on her phone (seems correct, London to Ascot and she did get off at Ascot). RPI comes back, scans just bought ticket, then says 'Just a reminder that you should buy your ticket before you board the train'. Wonder how she got through the barrier at Waterloo without one?
If this chap hadn't come round I could well have travelled without one, Martins Heron to Kew Bridge then Brentford back to Martins Heron, all open stations. I am not surprised there is so much fare dodging going on.

 

[riceuten]

I have not been "gripped" at the other end of this line for going on 10 years - though I don't know what the state of ticket barriers are south of East Croydon.

 

[Kite159]

Wonder how she got through the barrier at Waterloo without one?

Probably using a 'paper' ticket to Vauxhall/Clapham to bypass the barriers.

 

[izvor]

All very interesting, and all agreed we need way more revenue enforcement — but what is the incentive for TOCs to actually do this? Aren't all TOCs now running trains as gross cost contracts, with all ticket revenue going to the DfT? Doesn't this make the whole issue a DfT problem? If they are truly concerned about fare evasion (unlikely) then shouldn't the detail of revenue protection be specified in the contract?

 

[Russel]

This isn't helped by staff hardly ever asking for Railcards. I think I've shown my Network Railcard a single-figure number of times in the last 12 months.

Yep, same.

My Family & Friends railcard is on my phone, I used to load the app up with my tickets for inspection, but I don't bother now unless asked.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All very interesting, and all agreed we need way more revenue enforcement — but what is the incentive for TOCs to actually do this? Aren't all TOCs now running trains as gross cost contracts, with all ticket revenue going to the DfT? Doesn't this make the whole issue a DfT problem? If they are truly concerned about fare evasion (unlikely) then shouldn't the detail of revenue protection be specified in the contract?

Correct which is why binning the franchises without putting in place incentives for operators to maximise revenue is a key issue that needs to be addressed as it leads to a reduced level of income and makes the Treasury reluctant to agree to any further improvements. Cant see this being sorted by the current lot so we will plod on.

 

[JonathanH]

Probably using a 'paper' ticket to Vauxhall/Clapham to bypass the barriers.

Tailgating or just charging them is cheaper, although I note that the BTP were watching the Euston gateline on Monday to catch that sort of thing.

 

[kentrailman]

What's the point of buying a ticket or for that matter having on train ticket checks at all, if all that happens when you don't buy one is usually not much. Having said that though, this evening I alighted at Folkestone west ( ungated ) to find about ten ticket inspectors and one policeman blocking all the exits .. Made me smile as I hate paying for everyone else's tickets.

I don't know if they still do it but in the 1980's on German s and u bans they used to have ticket inspectors dressed as civilians who once a train was between stops suddenly whipped out thieridentity passes and swooped as a group on the whole carriage not allowing anyone any excuses and being in sufficient numbers to carry it through. Brilliant!

 

[HurdyGurdy]

binning the franchises without putting in place incentives for operators to maximise revenue is a key issue that needs to be addressed

Have you had sight of any of the contracts that were put in place and seen that they don't have any incentives regarding revenue and/or revenue protection? Only asking because it would be incredibly lax, even for this shambles of a government.

 

[1D54]

I don't know if they still do it but in the 1980's on German s and u bans they used to have ticket inspectors dressed as civilians who once a train was between stops suddenly whipped out thieridentity passes and swooped as a group on the whole carriage not allowing anyone any excuses and being in sufficient numbers to carry it through. Brilliant!

Berlin Airport is in zone C and i have twice seen plain clothed ticket inspectors suddenly get up and start blitzing a train upon departure from Grünbergallee which is the final stop for AB ticket holders. Both times early morning and both times very profitable for them!

 

[Undiscovered]

What's the point of buying a ticket or for that matter having on train ticket checks at all, if all that happens when you don't buy one is usually not much. Having said that though, this evening I alighted at Folkestone west ( ungated ) to find about ten ticket inspectors and one policeman blocking all the exits .. Made me smile as I hate paying for everyone else's tickets.

With digital tickets you can do a lot behind the scenes.

I can screenshot a particular ticket and report it to our fraud team, who can then put request further information from the Ticket Seller.
While I'm checking the validity of your ticket, I can annotate my reason for accepting/rejecting your ticket, and you'll never know.
Simply because someone says "Yes, that's all fine", doesn't mean they've not been alerted to something irregular and are avoiding confrontation by reporting it discreetly, by one of the myriad ways we can.

As the saying goes, you've got to be lucky every single time. I only have to be lucky once.

 

[ComUtoR]

well my station is ungated Oyster and when a Tlk disgorges its passengers and less than half tap out thats a good indicator to me.

I also used to base my guess about ticketless travel based on tapping out. However, it became clear that there are so many ticketing options, it wasn't a valid observation.

if its only 10% is that an acceptable level of fare evasion today?

I don't think any fare evasion is 'acceptable' but it is an understandable loss. People have been 'bunking' the train for years. There was probably someone on the Rocket who didn't have a valid ticket.

Gates are not a solution. My local station has a gateline but it isn't 100% manned. My TOC has Guards, but they are not a preventative measure. Modern ticketing methods often encourage people to play the system, and removing more staff and closing ticket offices will just exacerbate the problem further.

Not forgetting that there is a cost associated with preventing it. Enforcement costs money. A backwater station in the middle of nowhere could potentially cost more in enforcement than the loss of revenue.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

l would love to compare CCTV at Chancery Lane, Bank or Monument with the number of 'child' tickets that are used to open barriers between 5 & 6p.m

 

[Bald Rick]

I cannot recall having my ticket checked on Thameslink in the past five years.

I‘ve had mine checked on Thameslink 13 times this week! (10 at stations, 3 on trains)

 

[jayah]

Doubtless part of the issue is that revenue checks can take a painfully long time nowadays, as so many people have their travel documents on their phone but seemingly very few are sufficiently organised or prepared so as to actually have them ready when asked. Staff can spend an age waiting for someone to open an app, in some cases download their ticket, and then start all over again if asked for their Railcard; it’s no wonder many staff don’t bother with the ‘extras’!

The Apps take an age to open a ticket and the railcard is on *another* App.

 

[yorkie]

....Doubtless part of the issue is that revenue checks can take a painfully long time nowadays, as so many people have their travel documents on their phone but seemingly very few are sufficiently organised or prepared so as to actually have them ready when asked. ...

Maybe so on Thameslink, but only because checks are less frequent.

It's not the technology per se that makes it slower; indeed on Northern revenue checks are quicker than ever, now that almost everyone uses barcode tickets in my area.

 

[Towers]

Maybe so on Thameslink, but only because checks are less frequent.

It's not the technology per se that makes it slower; indeed on Northern revenue checks are quicker than ever, now that almost everyone uses barcode tickets in my area.

It is until they need to produce a Railcard which is in a separate app somewhere that they can’t find, or the ticket hasn’t downloaded yet, or they’ve no idea where to find the required QR code, or it turns out to be a ToD which then needs printing, etc etc! And that’s with staff ignoring the fact that half of the people presenting a QR code have got it in their phone’s gallery as a photo or a screenshot, which specifically isn’t allowed, and without them spending even more time scanning all the Railcard QR boxes, and so on. Rapid it is not!

If Northern staff are managing to do their ticket checks more swiftly than previously then that’s an impressive job!

 

[t0ffeeman]

At the moment we're in the worst of all worlds really. BTP often get dragged in because nowadays when someone sits there and tells you to eff off, what are you going to do then the answer is often nothing except call the BTP who can drag said individual off the premises and spoil their day. Same applies with shoplifters and the like who act with impunity.

20 years ago the railway staff themselves would quite often cheerfully remove such individuals under their own steam, nowadays they'd be sacked and/or prosecuted because the right of a scrote not to be harmed in any way outweighs anyone else's right not to be afflicted by them.

There is a major problem in this country whereby there is no middle ground between doing nothing or dragging the police in with rubbish individuals, and when you do drag the police in, half the time they themselves are terrified of the consequences of acting.

Letting scum be scum because it's the path of least resistance is the path to madness.

I was always told to tell them you'd call the police etc so not to lose face. Then get on with the rest of our job. 9 times out of 10 they'd just leave next stop. Easier said then done though

 

[Stampy]

Just to say, I travelled down from Peterborough to London on Sunday, and got my ticket ( a 1 day Travelcard) checked between Peterborough and Huntingdon...

First time I've EVER seen that in years of travelling on Thameslink / Great Northern

Didn't get any checks on the 1912 train home - and the barriers at King's Cross were ALL open...

 

[Deepgreen]

No, it’s not your business.

That's the spirit - everyone keep their heads down and let bad behaviour spiral. BTW, I've never seen any form of ticket inspection on any TL train in all my years of using it.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's the spirit - everyone keep their heads down and let bad behaviour spiral. BTW, I've never seen any form of ticket inspection on any TL train in all my years of using it.

You’re not a hero for intervening in a boring revenue dispute.

 

[DJ_K666]

Personally, my view would be no. The conductors aren’t stupid, they’ve probably seen every possible scam/argument before. At the end of the day, it’s their call (as GTR representative) whether to impose a penalty or just sell a ticket.

It'd probably end up costing her more than the penalty fare would have been anyway. Had I been the guard I'd have just let her keep paying out for fresh tickets.

 

[D7666]

Thameslink need to be out in force everyday ticketless travel is rife

AIUI 700s are the problem. As explained to me by local staff.

There are too few on train bolt holes for RPIs to dive into when they encounter aggression. On a train composed of say 377s (and once 319s) there are intermediate cabs they can lock themselves in, and such a cab is never more than 2 cars away. On a 700 the free cab may be 11 cars away, as the actual driving cab does not count. And that is a long way to run. I am sure someone is bound to suggest toilets but the staff who told me that had a very good reason why not that I'm not going into here.

Also, the very open wide gangway nature of 700s means that an approaching RPI can be seen a long way off enabling efffers to prepare their story,and on a stopping train often reaches next station before the RPI has got there.

Lastly, sound carries a long way on a 700. RPIs have difficulty in carrying out some of their procedures due to the necessary conversations being overheard hence not being private - especially when summoning assistance. Again, intermediate cabs could be used for this. Not on a 700.

What this boils down to is RPIs are reluctant to do on train check unless in gangs of 4s or with police protection.

 

[MrJeeves]

On the rare occasion you see an OBS they’re not interested whether you have a thameslink only ticket or Southern. GX is slightly different but not if it stops at Haywards Heath.

In my experience they always point it out and effectively say "I'll let you off this time" or something similar!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

AIUI 700s are the problem. As explained to me by local staff.

There are too few on train bolt holes for RPIs to dive into when they encounter aggression. On a train composed of say 377s (and once 319s) there are intermediate cabs they can lock themselves in, and such a cab is never more than 2 cars away. On a 700 the free cab may be 11 cars away, as the actual driving cab does not count. And that is a long way to run. I am sure someone is bound to suggest toilets but the staff who told me that had a very good reason why not that I'm not going into here.

Also, the very open wide gangway nature of 700s means that an approaching RPI can be seen a long way off enabling efffers to prepare their story,and on a stopping train often resch next station before RPI has got there.

Lastly, sound carries a long way on a 700. RPIs have difficulty in carrying out some of their procedures due to the necessary conversations being overheard hence not being private - especially when summoning assistance. Again, intermediate cabs could be used for this. Not on a 700.

What this boils down to is RPIs are reluctant to do on train check unless in gangs of 4s or with police protection.

Thats an interesting insight. So we create a train that supposed to make people safer but has other downsides. Anyhow wouldn't expect in this day and age that any RPI are operating on their own need to be a pair plus a heavy.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is until they need to produce a Railcard which is in a separate app somewhere that they can’t find, or the ticket hasn’t downloaded yet, or they’ve no idea where to find the required QR code, or it turns out to be a ToD which then needs printing, etc etc! And that’s with staff ignoring the fact that half of the people presenting a QR code have got it in their phone’s gallery as a photo or a screenshot, which specifically isn’t allowed, and without them spending even more time scanning all the Railcard QR boxes, and so on. Rapid it is not!

If Northern staff are managing to do their ticket checks more swiftly than previously then that’s an impressive job!

I'm intrigued by the sounds that the scanners make. GWR scanners seem to make three different sounds. One in particular sounds like the sort of tone you would expect if the ticket were not valid but clearly they are because the guard moves on to the next person without question.