Bluebell extension to Haywards Heath via Ardingly

[Railcar]

An announcement by the bluebell Railway dated 9th September says that they have a plan for extending from Horsted keynes to Ardingly (bypassing the aggregates depot) to achieve connection at Haywards Heath.

Bluebell Railway Western Extension Project – consultations.tetratecheurope.com

consultations.tetratecheurope.com

Bluebell Railway is proposing to reinstate and re-open the railway along the former Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath line, as far as Ardingly. At Ardingly, it is proposed to divert the route to the north around the existing Hanson Aggregates Depot, which is connected to the national rail network via a spur from Haywards Heath. This will enable onward journeys to Haywards Heath.



The proposal builds on the success of the northern extension to East Grinstead and has been under consideration for many years.

Still at consultation level
The stream of passengers that I've witnessed from East Grinstead (NR) to East Grinstead (Bluebell) is evidence that their connection from Kingscote to East grinstead was worthwhile.
Haywards heath is a stopping point for several fast south coast services (Ore, Eastbourne, Brighton, Littlehampton) and would bring in visitors to the Bluebell who might be put off by the long drag of the stopping trains via Oxted.

 

[steamybrian]

The Western Extension has been a longtime ambition for the Bluebell Railway since they purchased the trackbed between Horsted Keynes (HK) and Ardingly many years ago. Since then the track layout and signalling at HK was revised to accommodate services via Ardingly.
Most visitors from the South Coast travel by car as the bus services from Lewes or Haywards Heath to HK or Sheffield Park are infrequent. There is the hourly bus route no. 291 from Three Bridges station to East Grinstead station.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It will be interesting and I hope it happens, where could it be platformed at Haywards Heath? In the main station, or perhaps a separated platform / station, rather like they have at East Grinstead, which is only a short walk away. Perhaps if they do that, it could be at the London End of Haywards Heath main station. It would need room for a passing loop.

 

[zwk500]

I suspect this is mainly about protecting the route from further development. Horsted Keynes to Ardingly is simple. Ardingly to Copyhold junction is moderate but solvable. Copyhold junction to Haywards Heath is another matter entirely. It's one thing for a heritage railway to share paths to Whitby, but on the only loops on the BML is a totally different issue. Digging out the cutting for a 5th track is not financially viable for either party, taking out the down loop will not be helpful. The bluebell will also need to be very careful about overextending themselves operationally.

 

[Railcar]

It will be interesting and I hope it happens, where could it be platformed at Haywards Heath? In the main station, or perhaps a separated platform / station, rather like they have at East Grinstead, which is only a short walk away. Perhaps if they do that, it could be at the London End of Haywards Heath main station. It would need room for a passing loop.

Platform 1 at Haywards Heath was used when dividing the Eastbourne /Littlehampton services. (these are separate trains these days) Platform 1 has direct access from Copyhold Junction and (I think) was used in the 1950s for the service that ran from HK to Seaford.

 

[32475]

I really hope this happens and physically, Horsted Keynes to Ardingly is a tantalisingly short distance. The Bluebell is surely one of the South East’s biggest tourist assets and boosting it’s connectivity by rail has to be a huge bonus especially with the ability to increase the number of visitors via mainline rail.
I for one would love to see a Haywards Heath - Horsted Keynes electric shuttle, not third rail but if a vintage EMU could be converted to battery power then perfect. Steam would of course reign supreme between Sheffield Park and East Grinstead.
Good luck to the Bluebell!

 

[zwk500]

Platform 1 at Haywards Heath was used when dividing the Eastbourne /Littlehampton services. (these are separate trains these days) Platform 1 has direct access from Copyhold Junction and (I think) was used in the 1950s for the service that ran from HK to Seaford.

Platform 1 is the *only* line with a connection to the Ardingly branch. It's where freight has to runround if it's come off or going on to the branch. Because there's no additional crossover at HHE, any train off the branch heading back towards Copyhold junction blocks the loop from being used for overtaking for the entire time it's there (could well be about 15-20 minutes for the bluebell shuttle). There's also the issue of what they'd run it with - the stock would need to be mainline standard, and drivers would presumably need to be certified to an appropriate standard for the route as well.

I for one would love to see a Haywards Heath - Horsted Keynes electric shuttle, not third rail but if a vintage EMU could be converted to battery power then perfect. Steam would of course reign supreme between Sheffield Park and East Grinstead.
Good luck to the Bluebell!

The batteries are going to need charging somewhere, although fitting batteries under the 4VEP they have (is it Currently at Eastleigh or Clapham?) would be an interesting project!

 

[A0]

The Western Extension has been a longtime ambition for the Bluebell Railway since they purchased the trackbed between Horsted Keynes (HK) and Ardingly many years ago. Since then the track layout and signalling at HK was revised to accommodate services via Ardingly.
Most visitors from the South Coast travel by car as the bus services from Lewes or Haywards Heath to HK or Sheffield Park are infrequent. There is the hourly bus route no. 291 from Three Bridges station to East Grinstead station.

And a direct rail link from the south will make little difference to their visitor numbers.

There's no evidence a mainline link makes a heritage railway more successful.

 

[ExRes]

And a direct rail link from the south will make little difference to their visitor numbers.

There's no evidence a mainline link makes a heritage railway more successful.

Interesting though, if I happened to live in East Grinstead and wanted to go to Brighton shopping, not really, or Hove for the cricket, it would be a viable alternative

 

[zwk500]

Interesting though, if I happened to live in East Grinstead and wanted to go to Brighton shopping, not really, or Hove for the cricket, it would be a viable alternative

That would entirely depend on how long the journey took and what the times were like. I suspect that for a shopping trip it may just about be feasible but for a cricket match you'll have to leave very early to get the last connection back. The last trains are usually back at Sheffield park by 6 or 7pm. There's also the premium fares to consider.

And a direct rail link from the south will make little difference to their visitor numbers.

Agree

There's no evidence a mainline link makes a heritage railway more successful.

The Bluebell has reported significant benefits from it's mainline link, primarily because of the access to London tourists (the operational benefits of stock transfer are often offset by the greater costs). However there's absolutely no reason to think a second link will be worth the bother it will take to secure permission to operate into HHE (even if they have their own platform, they'll need to run over NR track at Copyhold Jn).

 

[alf]

I once read on the forum that space had been left at Haywards Heath for a separate Bluebell platform by the developers of the ex railway land immediately east of the station.

So I looked some time ago & there is space for an East Grinstead type Bluebell platform, but no room for a loop.
So battery vintage emus may be the answer.

The Swanage steam railway ran into Wareham for one summer pre Covid & had no problems except a drain on its bank balance.
Whitby sees regular steam trains on NR tracks from North York moors railway.

I am fully in favour.
It will extend the Bluebell’s public transport catchment area to the huge metropolis that extends from Hastings to Bournemouth.

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s a very tight curve at Ardingly!

 

[A0]

Interesting though, if I happened to live in East Grinstead and wanted to go to Brighton shopping, not really, or Hove for the cricket, it would be a viable alternative

Not when the Bluebell is run as a Heritage line with a limited number of trains running and a high ticket price.

They're not trying to provide a public transport service.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The batteries are going to need charging somewhere, although fitting batteries under the 4VEP they have (is it Currently at Eastleigh or Clapham?) would be an interesting project!

It's at Strawberry Hill and is very nearly back in main line condition complete with all the electronics required these days.

 

[busestrains]

The Western Extension has been a longtime ambition for the Bluebell Railway since they purchased the trackbed between Horsted Keynes (HK) and Ardingly many years ago. Since then the track layout and signalling at HK was revised to accommodate services via Ardingly.
Most visitors from the South Coast travel by car as the bus services from Lewes or Haywards Heath to HK or Sheffield Park are infrequent. There is the hourly bus route no. 291 from Three Bridges station to East Grinstead station.

There are actually three buses an hour from Three Bridges to East Grinstead (the 281 and 291 and 400 each run hourly) so they are very frequent. But still not as convenient as a direct mainline connection at Haywards Heath would be.

It will be interesting and I hope it happens, where could it be platformed at Haywards Heath? In the main station, or perhaps a separated platform / station, rather like they have at East Grinstead, which is only a short walk away. Perhaps if they do that, it could be at the London End of Haywards Heath main station. It would need room for a passing loop.

There is another track without a platform next to P1 at Haywards Heath so a new platform P0 could be built on that track with access to the platform from the large car park. This would be the best option as it would not involve using the four National Rail platforms and give the Bluebell Railway its own platform so that is what i think will probably happen.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

]

There is another track without a platform next to P1 at Haywards Heath so a new platform P0 could be built on that track with access to the platform from the large car park. This would be the best option as it would not involve using the four National Rail platforms and give the Bluebell Railway its own platform so that is what i think will probably happen.

That sounds hopeful then perhaps.

Is the 4VEP Train that is mentioned above, also known as Pettit? or Similar in a Blue Livery.?

Another thought for a shuttle train in the future from Haywards Heath is the 2 carriages of the DD Double Deck that have been saved and I think have been or will be reunited and restored soon. It would have to be diesel or steam hauled / propelled.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Would the 2BIL not look out of place here?

 

[32475]

Would the 2BIL not look out of place here?

The 2BIL would be absolutely perfect

 

[ExRes]

Not when the Bluebell is run as a Heritage line with a limited number of trains running and a high ticket price.

They're not trying to provide a public transport service.

They may have to think about what type of service they're providing when the financial estimate comes in though, personally I'd rather pay a reasonable excess fare to avoid going to East Croydon

 

[A0]

They may have to think about what type of service they're providing when the financial estimate comes in though, personally I'd rather pay a reasonable excess fare to avoid going to East Croydon

Nope - we've been through this several times on other threads. No Heritage Railway has ever got close to making a "public transport" service work. The closest were Swanage with the P&R and Nordern and their attempt to run onto Wareham (which was costly). The Keighley and Worth have run early Saturday "shopper" services in the past, but that fitted around their normal timetable.

The Bluebell's current ticket price is £ 27 (Adult bought on the day) - there's no way they're going to run an Haywards Heath - East Grinstead service with a lower ticket price than that - it would cannibalise their whole business model.

Even now they charge between £ 2 and £ 5 for a platform ticket.

 

[zwk500]

There is another track without a platform next to P1 at Haywards Heath so a new platform P0 could be built on that track with access to the platform from the large car park. This would be the best option as it would not involve using the four National Rail platforms and give the Bluebell Railway its own platform so that is what i think will probably happen.

It may be a large car park but it's also heavily used. Also, that track is a siding with no direct access to/from the north, it's purely there to permit runrounds of the Ardingly stone train. Putting in the additional crossovers required to access the runround line would cut into the length of the 2 berthing sidings on that side or the standage available to the freight.
Nothing is impossible, but important questions will need to be asked about whether so much disruption to the national network, especially freight options that would otherwise go by lorry, are worth the actual benefits to the heritage side.

 

[Trainlog]

I hope the Bluebell does get their extension approved as its going to be unique as a heritage railway that offers the opportunity to change from a main steam running line to another standard gauge branch line with both being steam operated, plus its an excuse to get some funding and work done on some of their asset's such as some of their pre grouping coaches, and to allow for some of their smaller locos to have a bit less strain on their hands as the Bluebell said that 'since the extension to East Grinstead the increase in demand does mean the smaller locos will have to work harder'. This explains the attention around Stowe being finished from overhaul (11:30s on the video)

. It will be interesting to see the amount of loco movements and trains in and out of Hosted Keynes when its all completed.

But tbh the Bluebell should really look into getting some other pieces done on its main running line first such as, for example putting a turntable into the bottom of Sheffield park so that they can host rail tours on occasion more confidently as they haven't done so as much recently. The other benefit is there are many heritage railways and mainline depots that just want to give their old turntables away as they are either redundant or don't feel they are appropriate to their line anymore.

But apart from that I look forward to it being done and hopefully there wont be too many challenges to its completion.

 

[RichJF]

It's at Strawberry Hill and is very nearly back in main line condition complete with all the electronics required these days.

The Bluebell have recently acquired a class 33 from the KESR. Given they own the 4VEP potentially that's the future?

 

[Railcar]

for example putting a turntable into the bottom of Sheffield park so that they can host rail tours on occasion more confidently as they haven't done so as much recently. The other benefit is there are many heritage railways and mainline depots that just want to give their old turntables away as they are either redundant or don't feel they are appropriate to their line anymore.

But apart from that I look forward to it being done and hopefully there wont be too many challenges to its completion.

The link to Haywards heath would give 'triangle' of lines ( if using NR via Oxted) but a quick look in Railway Track Diagrams convinced me that there would be no means of 'turning' guest locomotives that arrived at the Bluebell funnel-first.

 

[zwk500]

The link to Haywards heath would give 'triangle' of lines ( if using NR via Oxted) but a quick look in Railway Track Diagrams convinced me that there would be no means of 'turning' guest locomotives that arrived at the Bluebell funnel-first.

No means of turning either way. There exists a long term goal of installing either a turntable or triangle at Horsted Keynes but the land is super tight and the money nowhere near at the moment.

 

[Train Maniac]

While this does sound really promising, and being a lover of old slam door EMU's, i cant help but think this is still rather pie in the sky. Surely if it was third rail they would have to get a contract from the National grid to power it? In a similar vein, wouldnt fitting batteries sort of ruin the whole point of preserving EMU's as is?

I feel (as has been mentioned above) that the Bluebell railway should focus on what it already has and strive for perfection, before trying to overextend itself

 

[Trainlog]

There's no evidence a mainline link makes a heritage railway more successful.

I mean a heritage railway with a mainline connection is kinda like running with trainers, its not essential to have them but it does certainly help. For instance I visited the Gloswarks earlier this month and it was a brilliant line as the volunteers were friendly, the line was well kept and Foremarke hall put on a good display when I was there. However, I do disagree with the fact that they don't see any benefit to going to Honeybourne especially as its in a good radius of London and Birmingham access and influence. I went by National rail to see it and tbh its an achievable but rather long walk to get to Cheltenham Racecourse from Cheltenham Spa and it does lose an hour on the line rather than a few mins walking across the platforms if they where to go to Honeybourne. The topic of Mainline connections was actually the main topic for last months Steam railway Issue 535 'making the connection' and the Bluebell brought up an interesting point in that the line has failed to advertise its existence on the Southern railway website, so it would be interesting to see how much more of a difference would be made if the Bluebell stuck up some posters at London terminals or Stations that Southern stops at that lead to East Grinstead, as not many attractions do advertise their existence anymore apart from London ones.

 

[zwk500]

But tbh the Bluebell should really look into getting some other pieces done on its main running line first such as, for example putting a turntable into the bottom of Sheffield park so that they can host rail tours on occasion more confidently as they haven't done so as much recently. The other benefit is there are many heritage railways and mainline depots that just want to give their old turntables away as they are either redundant or don't feel they are appropriate to their line anymore.

To turn mainline railtour locos you need a 70ft turntable. There isn't space at SP to install one, nor are there many that big available for sale.

 

[A0]

I mean a heritage railway with a mainline connection is kinda like running with trainers, its not essential to have them but it does certainly help. For instance I visited the Gloswarks earlier this month and it was a brilliant line as the volunteers were friendly, the line was well kept and Foremarke hall put on a good display when I was there. However, I do disagree with the fact that they don't see any benefit to going to Honeybourne especially as its in a good radius of London and Birmingham access and influence. I went by National rail to see it and tbh its an achievable but rather long walk to get to Cheltenham Racecourse from Cheltenham Spa and it does lose an hour on the line rather than a few mins walking across the platforms if they where to go to Honeybourne. The topic of Mainline connections was actually the main topic for last months Steam railway Issue 535 'making the connection' and the Bluebell brought up an interesting point in that the line has failed to advertise its existence on the Southern railway website, so it would be interesting to see how much more of a difference would be made if the Bluebell stuck up some posters at London terminals or Stations that Southern stops at that lead to East Grinstead, as not many attractions do advertise their existence anymore apart from London ones.

But the GWSR and Honeybourne proves the point - there's nothing at Honeybourne, it's not a tourist destination, so the only possible reason for extending there would be interchange onto the national rail network and that's only a benefit to a small, if not tiny, proportion of their visitors, it won't drive any significant revenue. So they've rightly gone the other way, to Cheltenham, a destination in its own right and are 3 miles away from the National Rail station and they're right next to the racecourse.

If extending the line to a place is part of a railway's strategy and happens to also gain a link to the mainline in the process then fine, but on its own a mainline connection is never going to be viable. Any extension should be on the basis it helps the line - for example Embsay's desire to get to Skipton makes complete sense, not because it would gain a mainline connection but because it would add another tourist attraction to Skipton and Skipton's likely to be a destination people want to go to / from.

 

[A0]

While this does sound really promising, and being a lover of old slam door EMU's, i cant help but think this is still rather pie in the sky. Surely if it was third rail they would have to get a contract from the National grid to power it? In a similar vein, wouldnt fitting batteries sort of ruin the whole point of preserving EMU's as is?

I feel (as has been mentioned above) that the Bluebell railway should focus on what it already has and strive for perfection, before trying to overextend itself

I can't see *any* heritage railway getting 3rd rail installed - the cost, safety concerns and cost of operating it would be prohibitive.