Bluestar Discussion

[AwkwardHail]

Go South Coast has now published the new routes it'll be operating from 19 February:

https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/new-bluestar-bus-routes-19-feburary-2023

Route No	First No	Route Details	Frequency
Bluestar 10	First 9	City - Woolston - Peartree - Bitterne - Sholing	every hour
Bluestar 13	First 13	City - Woolston - Merry Oak - Bitterne - Harefield	every 30 minutes
Bluestar 14	First 8	City - Northam - Bitterne - West End - Chartwell Green - Hedge End Superstores & Rail Station	every 30 minutes
Bluestar 15	First 6	City - Woolston - Netley - Hamble	every 30 minutes
Bluestar 19	First 3	Thornhill (Hinkler Road) - Kathleen Road - Woolston - City - Shirley - Maybush Corner - Hospital - Lordshill	every 20 minutes
Bluestar 20	First 7	City - Portswood - St Denys - Midanbury - Townhill Park	every 15 minutes

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wonder if this indicates that they will be doing a like-for-like on these routes, rather than a route rework of the sort speculated above?

If so, bets on numbering? I'd stand by my earlier suggestions, but extend with one route:

3 -> 19 (because they ran a 19 on this route for a while, also the other cross-town routes are the close-by numbers 17 and 18)
7 -> 14 (because the Townhill Park route historically was the 14)
8 -> 15 (in same area as the 14 and 16, so makes sense to have close-together numbers)
13 -> 13 (because there is no current Bluestar 13, so may as well retain the number)
6 -> 10 (neighbouring numbers 8, 9, 11 and 12 are all out-of-town)
9 -> 20 (next available number. Will Bluestar get into the twenties for the first time)?

2 out of 6 right - must try harder

That's very soon, I think the current buses were only introduced in 2018.

The 18 university route in Bath circa 1993, for example, featured many services operated by VRs in which the fleet (Badgerline) featured some N- and quite a few P-registered examples, vintage approximately 1974 or 1975. Admittedly the minibuses which ran the off-peak services were newer, but most peak-hour vehicles on the route dated from the mid or late 1970s.

This reflects the change in student numbers. The Office for National Statistics figures showed that from March to May 1992, there were 984,000 people aged 18 to 24 in full-time education. In May to July 2016, there were 1.87 million.

Students are perhaps more demanding than back in the day (better accommodation, better tuition - especially as they're paying through the nose) and so tipping out some life expired fleet just isn't acceptable. Hence why some universities (not just Southampton) either (try to) demand commercial services meet a certain quality threshold or they actually go out and procure the service and set the standards accordingly.

 

[nw1]

2 out of 6 right - must try harder

And the most obvious ones (13 and 19), too....

At least I was right with the numbers 10, 13-15, 19 and 20, I guess

Interesting that Merry Oak and Harefield see a restoration of the historically-typical half-hourly frequency, but the 19, the replacement for the current 3, is cut to every 20 mins from every 10 currently. I'd guess that will have to be fully double-deck as the 3 always seems quite busy.

Other than that, frequencies seem unchanged. The 10 (the First 9 replacement) is the only one which remains hourly. I'm guessing that will have to interwork with something else, as I doubt it can get out and back in 55 minutes, but it will get out and back in well under 2 hours.

 

[PTR 444]

Also of note is that the 19 (First 3 replacement) will run via Maybush Corner instead of Warren Avenue between Shirley and the General Hospital. A good move considering Maybush Corner currently only has 4 buses per hour to town (2 direct, 2 via Millbrook) while Warren Avenue already has the 17 running every 10 minutes.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Some are still in Southampton with Bluestar, however correctly not on Unilink routes.

Bluestar has 1112 to 1116 which are ex Southern Vectis, and 1125 to 1129 which were new on Bluestar 1.

The ex Unilink vehicles are 1191 to 1199, which were converted to single door and sent to Morebus (some used on the BU contract). It's because they are ex-Unilink (and thus ex-dual doored) that they were numbered in a different range to the rest.

 

[DaveHarries]

[...] but the 19, the replacement for the current 3, is cut to every 20 mins from every 10 currently.

Much of the route of the 19 is covered by other services. For example if Bluestar don't cut the frequency on the 7 then the 7 & 19 will give 5 buses per hour from Lords Hill and Shirley will have 5 routes into town while Woolston will have 6 routes so even if the 19 does run less frequently than First's 3 the residents in Shirley and Woolston, for example, will have a good choice of buses.

Dave

 

[nw1]

Much of the route of the 19 is covered by other services. For example if Bluestar don't cut the frequency on the 7 then the 7 & 19 will give 5 buses per hour from Lords Hill and Shirley will have 5 routes into town while Woolston will have 6 routes so even if the 19 does run less frequently than First's 3 the residents in Shirley and Woolston, for example, will have a good choice of buses.

Dave

Was thinking of the easterly bit through Sholing from Woolston to Thornhill, mostly.

Wonder if it would make sense to increase the 7 to every 20 minutes? The 7 and 19 could then be combined to have an even-interval frequency on common sections.

 

[Surreyman]

Looking at the new routes and comparing them to City Reds current PVRs on 'Bustimes,' it looks as if the additional PVR for Bluestar is going to be around 21/22, (this does not allow for any increase in PVR to Bluestars existing routes).
Totton would appear to be 'Full' at least as far as the operators licence is concerned (It could be increased of course, I don't know what actual physical parking space there is at Totton).
So assume that the extra vehicles will be based at Eastleigh - unless anyone knows otherwise?
A quick check of 'Bustimes' for Damory, Morebus, Swindon, Salisbury Reds & Bluestar indicates more than 40 vehicles which have been 'off the road' from before December (excludes Solos & Coaches).
Have to take 'Bustimes' info with 'a pinch of salt' though, plus many of these vehicles may have defective engines/gearboxes/axles etc.

 

[route101]

From the new route map, only the 7 will run via Chapel now. The old first 13 and 9 are not anymore?

 

[PTR 444]

From the new route map, only the 7 will run via Chapel now. The old first 13 and 9 are not anymore?

The 9 and 13 have not been running via Chapel since the end of October, instead running via Bernard Street.

 

[nw1]

Looking at the new routes and comparing them to City Reds current PVRs on 'Bustimes,' it looks as if the additional PVR for Bluestar is going to be around 21/22, (this does not allow for any increase in PVR to Bluestars existing routes).

Slightly lower than my guesstimate of 25, but I over-estimated the likely frequency of the 19 (though also underestimated that of the 13).

Totton would appear to be 'Full' at least as far as the operators licence is concerned (It could be increased of course, I don't know what actual physical parking space there is at Totton).
So assume that the extra vehicles will be based at Eastleigh - unless anyone knows otherwise?

I don't know, but: given the new routes are on the east of the city, I would guess Eastleigh makes sense. Also the existing Bluestar routes in the area are (I believe) all Eastleigh-based: of the city routes I think the 7 and 17 are Totton but they go over to the west. Perhaps the 19 could be Totton also.

 

[baza585]

Slightly lower than my guesstimate of 25, but I over-estimated the likely frequency of the 19 (though also underestimated that of the 13).

I don't know, but: given the new routes are on the east of the city, I would guess Eastleigh makes sense. Also the existing Bluestar routes in the area are (I believe) all Eastleigh-based: of the city routes I think the 7 and 17 are Totton but they go over to the west. Perhaps the 19 could be Totton also.

The 7 is run from Eastleigh. The 17 runs from Totton, but Totton is very full. There is a compound at Barton Park which Go South Coast used to use when they ran National Express routes, and I believe that will be used again from February.

It would make sense in many ways for GSC
to take on Empress Rd but it doesn't look as if it will happen initially at least.

 

[nw1]

The 7 is run from Eastleigh. The 17 runs from Totton, but Totton is very full. There is a compound at Barton Park which Go South Coast used to use when they ran National Express routes, and I believe that will be used again from February.

It would make sense in many ways for GSC
to take on Empress Rd but it doesn't look as if it will happen initially at least.

I would agree there, given most of the routes start/terminate at the city centre, or at least run through it, it would mean a lot less empty movements.

 

[Lewlew]

As noted though, First are staying in the offices at Empress Road

 

[nw1]

A general observation I made yesterday: the diagramming (is that the word? I think there's another word for buses, but forgotten it) of the Totton side in particular does seem relatively complex and interesting - I was in central Southampton yesterday.

For example, an 11 (West Totton) came in, then parked up for around half an hour and formed a 4 (Romsey) out later (in around 1555, out around 1635) - it did not simply turn round and form the next 11 or 12 out. This seemed to be the intention, rather than a last-minute change, as the "11 Southampton" display switched to a "4 Romsey" even before the 11 had terminated. Seemed to be quite a few Bluestar buses parked up also, presumably in between duties. This reminds me a bit of what used to happen with Badgerline in the 90s and Alder Valley in the 80s. As all 4s, 11s and 12s (that I could see in a window of about an hour) yesterday were operated by similar single-deckers, I'm guessing this may be to allow drivers to stick with their vehicle and have a break?

 

[baza585]

A general observation I made yesterday: the diagramming (is that the word? I think there's another word for buses, but forgotten it) of the Totton side in particular does seem relatively complex and interesting - I was in central Southampton yesterday.

For example, an 11 (West Totton) came in, then parked up for around half an hour and formed a 4 (Romsey) out later (in around 1555, out around 1635) - it did not simply turn round and form the next 11 or 12 out. This seemed to be the intention, rather than a last-minute change, as the "11 Southampton" display switched to a "4 Romsey" even before the 11 had terminated. Seemed to be quite a few Bluestar buses parked up also, presumably in between duties. This reminds me a bit of what used to happen with Badgerline in the 90s and Alder Valley in the 80s. As all 4s, 11s and 12s (that I could see in a window of about an hour) yesterday were operated by similar single-deckers, I'm guessing this may be to allow drivers to stick with their vehicle and have a break?

This is not unusual. Only the 12 goes anywhere near Totton depot so complex interworking is necessary to give drivers breaks and get them to or from Totton depot.

I've tried to establish a pattern but there isn't one.....

 

[nw1]

This is not unusual. Only the 12 goes anywhere near Totton depot so complex interworking is necessary to give drivers breaks and get them to or from Totton depot.

I've tried to establish a pattern but there isn't one.....

Thanks. See: Badgerline at Bath 1993-94, Alder Valley at Guildford 1984-88. Equally random. Interesting though.

As I said above it also seems that there is swapping of vehicles onto and off the 1 to Winchester too at some points during the day, as diagram E24, for example, starts out on a Barton Peveril college service and winds up on a departure out of Southampton just after 1700. I'm guessing as it's an E2x diagram, it ends up working several journeys on the 2 in the middle of the day.

 

[route101]

I noted in Southampton buses layover all over the place. Southampton would do well with a bus station.

 

[nw1]

I noted in Southampton buses layover all over the place. Southampton would do well with a bus station.

It apparently had one, in the 80s, before they got rid of it. Someone, somewhere had a 1983 photo of the bus station, full of VRs and Nationals off to various places. Admittedly the route network at that time was considerably larger than today.

But even today, it certainly makes sense to me, given how many routes terminate there.

 

[WibbleWobble]

This is not unusual. Only the 12 goes anywhere near Totton depot so complex interworking is necessary to give drivers breaks and get them to or from Totton depot.

I've tried to establish a pattern but there isn't one.....

It isn't to do with getting drivers to Totton, as breaks are taken in the city centre. I believe there is a rest room above the travel shop in Bargate. If they are starting or finishing a duty, then they can just travel as a passenger on the 12.

The interworking and drop backs will help with allowing buses to depart on their next trip on time, given traffic in Southampton can be very unpredictable, especially with shopping and cruise traffic.

As for a bus station, one is proposed for the car park adjacent to the Castle Way bus stops.

 

[route101]

It apparently had one, in the 80s, before they got rid of it. Someone, somewhere had a 1983 photo of the bus station, full of VRs and Nationals off to various places. Admittedly the route network at that time was considerably larger than today.

But even today, it certainly makes sense to me, given how many routes terminate there.

Was where the Marlands Shopping Centre is today.

It isn't to do with getting drivers to Totton, as breaks are taken in the city centre. I believe there is a rest room above the travel shop in Bargate. If they are starting or finishing a duty, then they can just travel as a passenger on the 12.

The interworking and drop backs will help with allowing buses to depart on their next trip on time, given traffic in Southampton can be very unpredictable, especially with shopping and cruise traffic.

As for a bus station, one is proposed for the car park adjacent to the Castle Way bus stops.

I seen a proposed plan of that, looked more like a couple of stops than a bus station.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It apparently had one, in the 80s, before they got rid of it. Someone, somewhere had a 1983 photo of the bus station, full of VRs and Nationals off to various places. Admittedly the route network at that time was considerably larger than today.

But even today, it certainly makes sense to me, given how many routes terminate there.

It was a combined bus station and depot in a prime site (Marlands Shopping Centre) - Stagecoach bought Hampshire Bus in the privatisation programme, sold the site, then sold the Southampton and Eastleigh ops to Solent BlueLine. All in 1987.

 

[pompeyfan]

As noted though, First are staying in the offices at Empress Road

There are rumblings and musings that Solent are moving imminently which will allow office functions to move to Hoeford.

 

[nw1]

It was a combined bus station and depot in a prime site (Marlands Shopping Centre) - Stagecoach bought Hampshire Bus in the privatisation programme, sold the site, then sold the Southampton and Eastleigh ops to Solent BlueLine. All in 1987.

Ah that's where it was - thanks for that.

 

[Beemax]

It was a combined bus station and depot in a prime site (Marlands Shopping Centre) - Stagecoach bought Hampshire Bus in the privatisation programme, sold the site, then sold the Southampton and Eastleigh ops to Solent BlueLine. All in 1987.

^The Hants and Dorset Depot was actually about half a mile from the bus station, behind the old coach station at Grosvenor Square

 

[nw1]

^The Hants and Dorset Depot was actually about half a mile from the bus station, behind the old coach station at Grosvenor Square

I presume at that point all the Solent Blue Line services transferred to Eastleigh. (I don't think Totton depot existed back then, so even the Waterside routes were presumably operated out of Eastleigh?)

 

[Beemax]

I presume at that point all the Solent Blue Line services transferred to Eastleigh. (I don't think Totton depot existed back then, so even the Waterside routes were presumably operated out of Eastleigh?)

The maintenance did, but Blueline also used a large yard roughly where the Siemens Northam SWR depot is now. The Totton depot was acquired together with Marchwood Motorways some time in the 90s.

 

[nw1]

The maintenance did, but Blueline also used a large yard roughly where the Siemens Northam SWR depot is now.

I never knew that existed! That was still present in the early 90s?

The Totton depot was acquired together with Marchwood Motorways some time in the 90s.

I do remember that occurring. I have a distinct memory of the 52 to Petersfield, when SBL took that over (it was Citybus for a while) apparently being operated with Totton vehicles, at least for a time. I remember catching a 52 into Southampton one early evening probably around 2002 and noting that its next working was a 32 to Calmore.

 

[PhilStockley]

The Totton depot was acquired together with Marchwood Motorways some time in the 90s.

It actually wasn't until 2006.

Prior to that, Marchwood Motorways operated a number of routes under a franchise agreement with Solent Blue Line (30, 31, 32, 52 and the 18 for a period), where the routes were MM routes running with MM vehicles and staff on MM registrations - so legally, completely Marchwood operations - but paying SBL a franchise fee whereby SBL provided the brand, livery, ticketing systems and marketing, so to the customer, they looked like SBL routes.

I remember catching a 52 into Southampton one early evening probably around 2002 and noting that its next working was a 32 to Calmore.

As per the arrangement described above, you would actually have travelled on a Marchwood Motorways vehicle.

I presume at that point all the Solent Blue Line services transferred to Eastleigh. (I don't think Totton depot existed back then, so even the Waterside routes were presumably operated out of Eastleigh?)

Waterside routes operated out of a small yard at Gang Warily, near Fawley, just off Newlands Road. (If you look on Google Maps, the yard was the two little compounds immediately to the left of what it now describes as "Fawley Men's Shed". That arrangement persisted throughout the 90s and early 2000s. When Citaros were introduced to Waterside routes in early 2006, additional parking space was rented in Fawley Power Station. By early-mid 2007, following the acquisition of Marchwood Motorways, both yards were closed as their Totton Depot provided a better location.

Blueline also used a large yard roughly where the Siemens Northam SWR depot is now.

SBL had its own dedicated corner of a shared-use lorry park if I remember correctly, and this was the base for the crew-operated VRs used on the competitive city routes (which would never have been part of the old Hants & Dorset operation). The site was redeveloped as part of the regeneration of that area, ultimately including the construction of the new football stadium, and at this time (c.1998/99) route 18 was handed over to Marchwood Motorways who replaced the crew-operated VRs with brand new Dart SLFs, and ran it using the SBL brand as part of a franchise agreement, until it became a SBL route once again following the acquisition of Marchwood Motorways in 2006.

 

[Bob M]

I noted in Southampton buses layover all over the place. Southampton would do well with a bus station.

Southampton once had a bus station. Stagecoach bought Hants and Dorset, and sold off the bus station for redevelopment. The beginnings of the Stagecoach empire!