Blyth & Fleetwood potential reopenings?

[CdBrux]

Fleetwood line is part of this idea from the local councils. Could that be cheaper / easier vs heavy rail? I would imagine with rather different benefits

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...ylde-coast-tram-loop-a-reality-1-10175953/amp

The Fylde coast's three local authorities are being urged to support ambitious plans for a tram loop by joining forces to create a £2m development fund.

It is proposed Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre councils each include a bid for cash towards the scheme as part of their submissions to the government for a share of the Future High Street Fund.

The proposed tram loop
It is estimated a comprehensive business case study would cost around £2m, which would be split equally between the councils.

This would be used to recommend how the scheme could be implemented if funding became available in the future.

The loop proposes to use the mothballed rail track between Fleetwood and Poulton for trams, while the Kirkham to Blackpool South line would be converted from trains to trams.

The line would then connect to the existing Blackpool to Fleetwood tramway.

The tramway is already being extended up Talbot Road
It already has the support of Blackpool North and Cleveleys MP Paul Maynard, while Prime Minister Boris Johnson has pledged to re-open the Poulton to Fleetwood line as part of a £500m national campaign to restore closed down track.

A report to the next meeting of the Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Economic Prosperity Board on Tuesday January 7 says the aim is to create "a more cohesive Fylde Coast public transport system".

Blackpool Council, in conjunction with Lancashire County Council as transport authority for Fylde and Wyre, would undertake the feasibility study.

The report adds: "It is important that this opportunity is pursued to prepare the way to develop the tramway network further to enhance the sub-region in terms of accessibility, regeneration and environmental sustainability and support important economic sectors such as tourism.

"A more efficient and effective, modern and reliable, public transport system could be created by operating continuous tram lines between Kirkham and Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde via Lytham, St Annes, Blackpool, Cleveleys, Fleetwood and Thornton.

"A tramway loop would also serve Blackpool Airport Enterprise Zone, Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Hillhouse International Enterprise Zone."

For the scheme to go ahead, it would also need the backing of rail operators and Network Rail.

The committee is being recommended to accept the proposals and approach the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government and Lancashire County Council to ensure they are on board.

Bodies including Blackpool Transport, Network Rail, Community Rail Lancashire, Transport for the North, the DfT and the Poulton and
Wyre Railway Society would also be consulted.

The tramway is already being extended up Talbot Road to connect with Blackpool North train station.

 

[323 Class]

Poulton Le Fylde Junction.
If you were doing the feasibility study, would you re-instate the bits in yellow to allow Blackpool - Fleetwood - Preston and additionally would you consider electrification seeing as the rest of the line is?

Either way, its gonna be expensive.
Perhaps it would make sense to bring the Blackpool trams down from Fleetwood instead?

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems to me these two proposals are at completely separate stages of development, despite the media report covering them together.

So given the useful reminder above (Killingworth’s post #58) that the Blyth and Ashington project is clearly in the RNEP process, and was published by DfT in their CP6 announcement a few months ago, should it really still be considered as “speculation”?

As a comparison, Ashington/Blyth is in the same status as Cambridge South in DfT’s list...

 

[Mikey C]

I find it hard to believe that the Fleetwood branch would be that busy, or that vast numbers of visitors would flock to Fleetwood because it was now on the NR network, when it already has such a good tram service to Blackpool and is well served by buses too.

 

[323 Class]

I find it hard to believe that the Fleetwood branch would be that busy, or that vast numbers of visitors would flock to Fleetwood because it was now on the NR network, when it already has such a good tram service to Blackpool and is well served by buses too.

Perhaps Boris has a plan to make Fleetwood a port for importing, should the EU trade deal go per shaped. He could always rail freight it to the warehouses.lol

 

[Codville]

I'd be quite happy for either tram conversion or heavy raiil use just so long as it makes getting to Poulton easier, as a resident of Fleetwood I'm getting quite sick of people saying "oh Fleetwood has busses to Blackpool that are frequent" or "Trams from Fleetwood to Blackpool North", I do both of these journeys on a fairly regular basis and it takes an hour on a good day and its not as convenient as people believe it is, we want better connections to the rest of the county not just to Blackpool.

 

[323 Class]

I'd be quite happy for either tram conversion or heavy raiil use just so long as it makes getting to Poulton easier, as a resident of Fleetwood I'm getting quite sick of people saying "oh Fleetwood has busses to Blackpool that are frequent" or "Trams from Fleetwood to Blackpool North", I do both of these journeys on a fairly regular basis and it takes an hour on a good day and its not as convenient as people believe it is, we want better connections to the rest of the county not just to Blackpool.

Having seen the escalating costs of HS2 and Crossrail, it seems that the crumbs on the finance plate are being micromanaged for any project in the North.
Metrolink which is about 8 miles to get to from my location is good for suburban Greater Manchester but if I get the train from Dinting and want to get to Liverpool or Man airport, if I time it right , I can get there in 1hr 30 mins and 1hr 15 mins respectively. Metrolink to the Airport would be around 1hr 45 at least.

Like anyone else, you want stopper trains to get to somewhere localish but you also need fast trains to get from major Towns and Cities.

The Fleetwood branch looks like its earmarked for Heritage trains rather than being absorbed back into the national rail network.
Is it financially possible for a heritage company to actually provide a regular commuter service 7 days a week. Given the number of TOC's in trouble, I do wonder.

 

[furnessvale]

Is it financially possible for a heritage company to actually provide a regular commuter service 7 days a week. Given the number of TOC's in trouble, I do wonder.

I see no reason why a micro franchise couldn't be awarded subject to the heritage operators being able to jump through whatever hoops DfT, ORR etc erect.

 

[randyrippley]

I'd be quite happy for either tram conversion or heavy raiil use just so long as it makes getting to Poulton easier, as a resident of Fleetwood I'm getting quite sick of people saying "oh Fleetwood has busses to Blackpool that are frequent" or "Trams from Fleetwood to Blackpool North", I do both of these journeys on a fairly regular basis and it takes an hour on a good day and its not as convenient as people believe it is, we want better connections to the rest of the county not just to Blackpool.

And not just the rest of the county...........Fleetwood and Thornton need commuter connections for work on the Preston-Manchester axis.
All the talk of attracting visitors TO Fleetwood is misguided, the question is how best to help Fylde / Wyre residents get to jobs.
To that end you also need to make sure any renovated line also serves residents on the north bank of the Wyre - good case for a cable car across the river maybe

 

[158756]

I see no reason why a micro franchise couldn't be awarded subject to the heritage operators being able to jump through whatever hoops DfT, ORR etc erect.

How much money would the heritage operator need to jump through those hoops though? And how much of a heritage operation would it actually be if it had a regular 7 days a week normal passenger service - sounds a bit like a way of trying to cut costs, would any such operation offer through ticketing to the national network? A small heritage operation trying to do that sounds like a massive financial risk as well - what happens if it goes bust?

A tram would potentially allow a higher frequency of service, which is a massive help if you have to connect at Poulton, and could get all the way into Fleetwood, but definitely has the through ticketing problem. It also comes with the risk of closure should the finances ever not work out for any reason, because unlike trains trams are the domain of cash strapped local councils and the local bus company - there was even a suggestion of closing the existing line to Fleetwood a few years ago.

 

[edwin_m]

A tram would potentially allow a higher frequency of service, which is a massive help if you have to connect at Poulton, and could get all the way into Fleetwood, but definitely has the through ticketing problem. It also comes with the risk of closure should the finances ever not work out for any reason, because unlike trains trams are the domain of cash strapped local councils and the local bus company - there was even a suggestion of closing the existing line to Fleetwood a few years ago.

You're letting the tail wag the dog here - not to single you out though as it's a common problem. The institutional arrangements that govern trains, trams and buses shouldn't be dictating the technical solution.

There's nothing to stop a tram being integrated into the rail ticketing system simply because it's a tram - rail compliant TVMs could be provided at stops and/or on-board staff could carry the same machines train conductors use. There should be a solid funding package to ensure any tram solution isn't saddled with paying back a capital debt, but probably if it's carrying a decent number of passengers its operating deficit should be small and can be covered in a way similar to a rail franchise. If the passenger numbers fall well short of predictions then should it really be continuing to operate?

 

[Meerkat]

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/NorthumberlandCountyCouncil/media/Roads-streets-and-transport/transport policy/Northumberland Line/x211916_NCC_A0_p1_iw_rotated.pdf

Newsham station is proposed to the wrong side of the A-road right on the fringes - couldn’t they have got it further north where it would be in easy walking distance of far more houses?
Is it far enough from the LC to stop northbound with the gates open? They seem to be keeping that LC on the main road into Blyth from the south.
The LC near Bebside looks iffy too for getting busier, though the southbound platform may be far enough north not to block it. Off a dual carriageway, left off the roundabout and straight into the back of the level crossing queue. Hope you don’t get big queues back trying to get onto the roundabout

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/N...umberland Line/NLand-Line-Boards-Full-No8.pdf

Bedlington is between two urban LCs, the accesses for the platforms seem to be widely split, and the southbound platform overlaps the junction!

 

[furnessvale]

How much money would the heritage operator need to jump through those hoops though? And how much of a heritage operation would it actually be if it had a regular 7 days a week normal passenger service - sounds a bit like a way of trying to cut costs, would any such operation offer through ticketing to the national network? A small heritage operation trying to do that sounds like a massive financial risk as well - what happens if it goes bust?

A tram would potentially allow a higher frequency of service, which is a massive help if you have to connect at Poulton, and could get all the way into Fleetwood, but definitely has the through ticketing problem. It also comes with the risk of closure should the finances ever not work out for any reason, because unlike trains trams are the domain of cash strapped local councils and the local bus company - there was even a suggestion of closing the existing line to Fleetwood a few years ago.

I was simply responding to the thought about a heritage operation. I have no strong views train v tram, both have advantages and disadvantages.

Hopefully, a £100,000 feasability study will make recommendations.

 

[Killingworth]

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/NorthumberlandCountyCouncil/media/Roads-streets-and-transport/transport policy/Northumberland Line/x211916_NCC_A0_p1_iw_rotated.pdf

Newsham station is proposed to the wrong side of the A-road right on the fringes - couldn’t they have got it further north where it would be in easy walking distance of far more houses?
Is it far enough from the LC to stop northbound with the gates open? They seem to be keeping that LC on the main road into Blyth from the south.
The LC near Bebside looks iffy too for getting busier, though the southbound platform may be far enough north not to block it. Off a dual carriageway, left off the roundabout and straight into the back of the level crossing queue. Hope you don’t get big queues back trying to get onto the roundabout

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/NorthumberlandCountyCouncil/media/Roads-streets-and-transport/transport policy/Northumberland Line/NLand-Line-Boards-Full-No8.pdf

Bedlington is between two urban LCs, the accesses for the platforms seem to be widely split, and the southbound platform overlaps the junction!

The devil is in the detail. Level crossings are an issue but so will be parking. In the 1950s it wouldn't have mattered but it does today. Depending on the level of service I can see a halo of parked cars around the stations infuriating nearby residents and congesting approaches to the level crossings.

I support the reopening, but can see the little practical matters make it rather more difficult than it first appears. That's if it is to succeed.

 

[158756]

You're letting the tail wag the dog here - not to single you out though as it's a common problem. The institutional arrangements that govern trains, trams and buses shouldn't be dictating the technical solution.

There's nothing to stop a tram being integrated into the rail ticketing system simply because it's a tram - rail compliant TVMs could be provided at stops and/or on-board staff could carry the same machines train conductors use. There should be a solid funding package to ensure any tram solution isn't saddled with paying back a capital debt, but probably if it's carrying a decent number of passengers its operating deficit should be small and can be covered in a way similar to a rail franchise. If the passenger numbers fall well short of predictions then should it really be continuing to operate?

The whole of the Northern franchise, and much of the rest of the network, is currently falling short of expected passengers and revenue. If it were run on the same basis as Blackpool Transport there would have to have been major cuts by now. When the future of the existing line was questioned I think the stumbling block was track maintenance - who pays for that without access to Network Rail funds or the metropolitan transport executives ? Lancashire won't.