Boat Trains

[StephenHunter]

Re the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow, am I right in thinking that UK-side passport/ checks were dealt with at Victoria, namely next to Platforms 1&2?

 

[Elwyn]

Re the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow, am I right in thinking that UK-side passport/ checks were dealt with at Victoria, namely next to Platforms 1&2?

Yes that’s correct but only for 1st class passengers on the night ferry. They could therefore sleep (theoretically) in their bunks when the carriages were loaded on and off the ferry. Other class passengers went through the normal passport checks at Dover.

There was a fairly basic passport control area in offices beside platforms 1 & 2. The platform had a temporary barrier and passengers were routed through 1 door to the see the Immigration Officer and then out another, back on to the platform.

 

[30907]

Re the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow, am I right in thinking that UK-side passport/ checks were dealt with at Victoria, namely next to Platforms 1&2?

The Arrow traditionally used 8 - there was a sign over the platform entrance, corresponding to the Ferry one over 1/2.

 

[Mag_seven]

Of course any freight train running to a port e.g Southampton, Tilbury is technically a "boat train".

 

[DerekC]

Of course any freight train running to a port e.g Southampton, Tilbury is technically a "boat train".

The Cambridge Online Dictionary says a boat train is:

"A train that is planned to reach or leave a port at the right time for passengers who are leaving or arriving on a ship"

 

[PeterC]

The thing that makes it a "boat train" is the connection being held. It would always annoy me at Liverpool Street when they would announce tjhat the boat train from Harwich was "late" when it had been held to maintian the connection with a late docking ferry. Surely it would have been better PR to have announced that it had been "rescheduled".

 

[peterinlewes]

No mention of Newhaven yet !
Back in the 60's and 70's there was a day and night boat train from Victoria connectoing with the Dieppe ferries.
In the 70's I recall the daytime one being loco hauled Mk 1's with a Class 73.

And in later years the night service was often 12CEP with MLV/TLV making 14 coaches.

The final regular boat train (not sure of the end but think it was in 80's or early 90's) was a day service from Victoria which was often just a 4CIG. I think this ran on its own, but may have detached from a service train at Haywards Heath on occasions.

 

[Busaholic]

No mention of Newhaven yet !
Back in the 60's and 70's there was a day and night boat train from Victoria connectoing with the Dieppe ferries.
In the 70's I recall the daytime one being loco hauled Mk 1's with a Class 73.

And in later years the night service was often 12CEP with MLV/TLV making 14 coaches.

The final regular boat train (not sure of the end but think it was in 80's or early 90's) was a day service from Victoria which was often just a 4CIG. I think this ran on its own, but may have detached from a service train at Haywards Heath on occasions.

You've jogged my memory. Back before I had a car, so probably late 1970s or 1980/1, my wife and I caught that daytime train to Newhaven. We were possibly the only people to transfer to the ferry, because I remember at the ferry terminal, with no-one else in sight, a fellow came out of a door and announced he was from Special Branch and wanted to see our travel documents. He seemed quite disappointed when they were all in order! We were only spending the night in Dieppe, taking the train to Paris the next morning. I seem to remember the ferry fare was significantly lower than from Dover or Folkestone, which is why we chose that route.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Were the trains (think they were freight only) that where physically driven on and off boats also known as boat trains?

 

[berneyarms]

The thing that makes it a "boat train" is the connection being held. It would always annoy me at Liverpool Street when they would announce tjhat the boat train from Harwich was "late" when it had been held to maintian the connection with a late docking ferry. Surely it would have been better PR to have announced that it had been "rescheduled".

I think "delayed" (and an explanation why) might be more appropriate - rescheduled implies that the train had a new schedule, when it hadn't.

 

[30907]

Were the trains (think they were freight only) that where physically driven on and off boats also known as boat trains?

Not the freight wagons, no.

The one passenger one, the Night Ferry, fell into that general category, and until its last years included a non sleeper portion which didnt cross the Channel. But ISTR it was simply referred to by its name.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Were the trains (think they were freight only) that where physically driven on and off boats also known as boat trains?

NO - the freight ferries were known as "Train Ferries" - and the connecting freight services were just standard (air braked) Speedlink services in my day. I recall the 1009 Whitemoor to Harwich with some fond memories. (it was the sweeper train which dealt with any odds and sods and connections from further afield services that had run late)

 

[StephenHunter]

No mention of Newhaven yet !
Back in the 60's and 70's there was a day and night boat train from Victoria connectoing with the Dieppe ferries.
In the 70's I recall the daytime one being loco hauled Mk 1's with a Class 73.

And in later years the night service was often 12CEP with MLV/TLV making 14 coaches.

The final regular boat train (not sure of the end but think it was in 80's or early 90's) was a day service from Victoria which was often just a 4CIG. I think this ran on its own, but may have detached from a service train at Haywards Heath on occasions.

Didn't 3x4CEP and a MLV stretch the available power supply? I recall reading that somewhere.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Didn't 3x4CEP and a MLV stretch the available power supply? I recall reading that somewhere.

That (or with a 4BEP instead of the middle 4CEP) was the regular formation for boat trains on the SE division to Dover and Folkestone, at least when I was watching them in the 70s-early 80s.

No mention of Newhaven yet !
Back in the 60's and 70's there was a day and night boat train from Victoria connectoing with the Dieppe ferries.
In the 70's I recall the daytime one being loco hauled Mk 1's with a Class 73.

And in later years the night service was often 12CEP with MLV/TLV making 14 coaches.

The final regular boat train (not sure of the end but think it was in 80's or early 90's) was a day service from Victoria which was often just a 4CIG. I think this ran on its own, but may have detached from a service train at Haywards Heath on occasions.

When did the MLVs regularly work to Newhaven? I've never seen a picture.

Later edit: nearest I've found is a NSE-liveried 13-car stop sign at Newhaven: https://www.flickr.com/photos/50619197@N07/5790908782/in/photolist-9PHVqS

 

[StephenHunter]

Yes that’s correct but only for 1st class passengers on the night ferry. They could therefore sleep (theoretically) in their bunks when the carriages were loaded on and off the ferry. Other class passengers went through the normal passport checks at Dover.

There was a fairly basic passport control area in offices beside platforms 1 & 2. The platform had a temporary barrier and passengers were routed through 1 door to the see the Immigration Officer and then out another, back on to the platform.

I went by that part of Victoria today. Is that where the Belmond British Pullman check in place is now?

 

[Elwyn]

I went by that part of Victoria today. Is that where the Belmond British Pullman check in place is now?

I don’t know whether it is the Belmond check-in area now. I know about the arrangements in the 1970s because I was one of the Immigration Officers who worked there then checking passengers’ passports. I moved on in 1979 and don’t know what happened to the facilities after that.

I do recall looking inside the 1st Class Night Train carriages, which were clearly fairly ancient but also rather elegant. Shades of Poirot. I also recall the on board staff in their smart uniforms. If I remember correctly we had two staff to check the arriving passengers passports in the morning, and one for the departing passengers at night (We still checked departing passengers passports then). I think we swung the desks around to face the relevant direction of travel. Hard to remember now. It certainly wasn't luxurious.

I think there were coke fired furnaces in each carriage to provide heating (would that be right?), and that there were special retractable steps at each doorway that enabled continental carriages comply with the British loading gauge. The staff told us that those carriages had been specially built at Hitler’s orders in the 1940s so that he could use them for his ceremonial tour of Britain after the Germans invaded. I have no idea whether there was any truth in that, but it has certainly stuck in my memory.

 

[StephenHunter]

Very useful information. The reason I am asking specifically is that I am running a Cold War set spy RP in which the Night Ferry features and I like to get the details correct within reason.

As for the carriages though, I think the staff were wrong; they were CIWL Type Fs built pre-war for the Ferry operations.

 

[Taunton]

The staff told us that those carriages had been specially built at Hitler’s orders in the 1940s so that he could use them for his ceremonial tour of Britain after the Germans invaded. I have no idea whether there was any truth in that, but it has certainly stuck in my memory.

There were three groups of stock, all built in France. The original 1936 ones were seized by Mitropa, the German sleeping/dining car company, in WW2, and used in Germany and elsewhere. Some were just lost, destroyed and unaccounted for, and others not fit for return. The second group had been half-built at the end of 1939, and stored incomplete until 1946 when they were finished. A third group was built in the early 1950s, ostensibly as replacements of the original cars which were lost.

 

[Martin S Heron]

Upthread there was mention of a St Pancras to Tilbury service. Does anyone know of the route it took and if it would still be theoretically possible to run this service today? (Obviously Tilbury Riverside is now closed).

 

[Taunton]

Upthread there was mention of a St Pancras to Tilbury service. Does anyone know of the route it took and if it would still be theoretically possible to run this service today? (Obviously Tilbury Riverside is now closed).

Not directly, because the curve at Kentish Town from St Pancras round onto the Goblin link is gone, the contractor Murphy (coincidentally doing the Goblin electrification) have their plant yard there now. Everything else still in use.

 

[StephenHunter]

Upthread there was mention of a St Pancras to Tilbury service. Does anyone know of the route it took and if it would still be theoretically possible to run this service today? (Obviously Tilbury Riverside is now closed).

I would imagine it used the Woodgrange Park section of the Goblin to get to Barking.

They later used 308s on boat trains, but they didn't go into St Pancras I believe.

 

[DidcotDickie]

As Taunton says, you couldn't do this run today because the curve from the MML slow lines from the Kentish Town direction to the Tottenham North Curve was removed many years ago (Engine Shed Jct to Mortimer St Jct according to my 3rd Edition Baker (1980)), so you couldn't access St Pancras.

You can just about make out the line of the spur on Google satellite view:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.553122,-0.1448645,695m/data=!3m1!1e3

The rest of the route would have followed what is now the GOBLIN to Barking then down the Tilbury loop line to Tilbury Riverside. I saw the occasional boat train from St Pancras at Grays in the early 60s. These were diesel hauled - can't remember the type exactly but most likely Type 2s (what were later class 25 or 31s) with maroon ex-LMS corridor rolling stock.

StephenHunter is correct in that these were later replaced with EMUs (308/2 or 302) which ran from Fenchurch St. Don't think these boat train services lasted too long after that though.

 

[Taunton]

In Midland Railway days (and the Midland bought out the LTS in 1912) St Pancras was their only terminus. Fenchurch Street was actually a Great Eastern station where the LTS running powers allowed them to have only one platform, so that was why the boat trains had to be routed by the lengthier route. St Pancras had plenty of room for leisurely loading and unloading of all the heavy baggage.

It was ironic because Fenchurch Street itself (the street, not the station) was long the London home of many major shipping offices; if you look at their old adverts you will find their London addresses were here. A lot of them there were lost in World War 2 bombing.

 

[eastwestdivide]

On the St Pancras-Tilbury trains - there's a thread over on Rmweb
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33682-class-27s-and-the-tilbury-boat-train/
mentioning 27s and possibly 24s. Apparently there are published photos of 27s on the working in some books.

 

[30907]

Not directly, because the curve at Kentish Town from St Pancras round onto the Goblin link is gone, the contractor Murphy (coincidentally doing the Goblin electrification) have their plant yard there now. Everything else still in use.

For info, the pre-Goblin service ran Kentish Town-Barking and there was no bay platform at Gospel Oak. Back in the days of the boat trains, the surviving curve from the MML was used by seaside excursions to Southend.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For info, the pre-Goblin service ran Kentish Town-Barking and there was no bay platform at Gospel Oak. Back in the days of the boat trains, the surviving curve from the MML was used by seaside excursions to Southend.

From such places as Tring and Watford Junction , some of my old drivers worked them with DMU's in the late 1950's and 1960's. Not sure really how the compliance and route knowledge worked then , but no recorded issues in their files when I checked them over on retirement..!

 

[DidcotDickie]

For info, the pre-Goblin service ran Kentish Town-Barking and there was no bay platform at Gospel Oak. Back in the days of the boat trains, the surviving curve from the MML was used by seaside excursions to Southend.

And in the other direction too. During the 70s I travelled on a number of 'Merrymaker' excursions from the LT&S which used this curve to access the GWML via the MML, Dudding Hill line and Acton Wells.

 

[30907]

From such places as Tring and Watford Junction , some of my old drivers worked them with DMU's in the late 1950's and 1960's. Not sure really how the compliance and route knowledge worked then , but no recorded issues in their files when I checked them over on retirement..!

Didnt know about those, thanks, but I wasn't meaning the Gospel Oak-Junction Rd bit.
I was thinking of the route joining the main line at Carlton Rd Jn, so from equivalent Midland stations like Cricklewood and St Albans, and they were in the public timetable.

 

[StephenHunter]

I was having a look at my 1974/5 International Timetable this morning and once the Night Ferry was over the other side of the Channel at Dunkirk, it picked up other portions for Basel and Milan; which I think must have come off at Lille or somewhere to go round Paris. Which is part of the reason why you had the seating coaches this side of the Channel.

 

[30907]

I was having a look at my 1974/5 International Timetable this morning and once the Night Ferry was over the other side of the Channel at Dunkirk, it picked up other portions for Basel and Milan; which I think must have come off at Lille or somewhere to go round Paris. Which is part of the reason why you had the seating coaches this side of the Channel.

There was also a substantial seats portion to/from Paris (I used it once), and often an emu relief on this side of the Channel.

The Basel and Milan service was train DB/BD which, as you say, was detached at Lille and ran across Northern France to Basel, whence it would have formed part of a Basel-Milan service. ISTR that it briefly carried a sleeper as far as Basel around 1970