Bombardier and the EU

[strange6]

Apparantly they lost a 1.5 Billion pound government rail contract because of EU law. Siemens won this contract (German) because they put in the lower bid and the Eu says that the lower bid MUST be accepted, irrespective of location. Another reason for leaving the crappy EU!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-13821935

 

[WestCoast]

I'm repeating this post from another thread!

I'd just like to point something out, Bombardier isn't a British company, they will place their factory where they get orders - they have no loyalties.

When I see the headlines I always see "awarded to German firm Siemens" (or even just "The Germans" in the case of tabloids), not much is made of the fact Bombardier is Canadian and Bombardier Transportation is based in Berlin. Yes, they operate a UK factory and are investing in the country, but it doesn't make them British.

Even the BBC has referred to them as "the Derby firm":roll:. They are not a Derby firm, they simply operate a factory!

In the UK, Siemens have been running financial services (and are a major employer) such as Premium Bonds on behalf of the UK Government for around 12 years.

It's a bit like saying Nissan are 'home-grown'.

It's a real shame that Britain doesn't have its own train manufacturer anymore, everything has to be designed and built by foreign firms.

 

[strange6]

It's a real shame that Britain doesn't have its own train manufacturer anymore, everything has to be designed and built by foreign firms.

I can't disagree with you on that point

 

[142094]

I'm slightly biased as 300 jobs are supposed to be coming to the North East due to this, plus good news with Hitatchi if IEP ever gets started.

 

[WestCoast]

Siemens will be processing 40% of the order in the UK, whereas Bombardier would be doing 60%. That's in terms of the full order, rather than rolling stock units.

May I refer you to the final pages of "And the Thameslink winner is...." thread. The details of the order have been discussed there.

 

[Gmac]

The point is Bombardier employ 3000 people at the Derby factory and the government's decision has put these jobs at risk. I couldnt see Germany or France give a contract that would risk jobs in their countries. Ony the UK can shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[asylumxl]

The point is Bombardier employ 3000 people at the Derby factory and the government's decision has put these jobs at risk. I couldnt see Germany or France give a contract that would risk jobs in their countries. Ony the UK can shoot themselves in the foot.

I can. Infact it happened not to long ago. The Siemens Velaro being ordered over the Alstom AGV by Eurostar.

 

[boing_uk]

the Eu says that the lower bid MUST be accepted, irrespective of location.

No it doesnt. There are two systems of tender that the EU allow; Lowest Price and Most Economically Advantageous Tender.

Looking at it, they have not gone for the lowest price, but the lowest "whole life" cost, which sounds more like a MEAT, which has a scoring process as part of the final assessment.

Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi can get a full written explanation and of course the scores will be available to all of us once the tender is awarded.

 

[fgwrich]

Siemens will be processing 40% of the order in the UK, whereas Bombardier would be doing 60%. That's in terms of the full order, rather than rolling stock units..

Maybe so, but correct me if im wrong that most of the interior in the S Stock comes from Bombardiers factory in China - Thus Bombardier probably wouldnt be manufacturing as much of the Thameslink order in this country as much as their made out to be...

In fact, i think that one of the few UK Produced parts in the S Stock may actualy be the floor - from Treadmasters in Cornwall!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm repeating this post from another thread!

I'd just like to point something out, Bombardier isn't a British company, they will place their factory where they get orders - they have no loyalties.

When I see the headlines I always see "awarded to German firm Siemens" (or even just "The Germans" in the case of tabloids), not much is made of the fact Bombardier is Canadian and Bombardier Transportation is based in Berlin. Yes, they operate a UK factory and are investing in the country, but it doesn't make them British.

Even the BBC has referred to them as "the Derby firm":roll:. They are not a Derby firm, they simply operate a factory!

In the UK, Siemens have been running financial services (and are a major employer) such as Premium Bonds on behalf of the UK Government for around 12 years.

It's a bit like saying Nissan are 'home-grown'.

It's a real shame that Britain doesn't have its own train manufacturer anymore, everything has to be designed and built by foreign firms.

And West Coast, have to say that some of your posts i havent agreed with, but this certainly is one of them! God, if people really wanted to be pedantic about Bombardier 'because there british' - And this was inlcuded in one comment made on one of Derbys newspapers - that this person will never travel around the country by train again unless its one of Bombardiers Voyagers / 222s...Well good luck to that, as they were built in Bruges! with the interior fitted out in Wakefield! :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

I find it interesting that you leap to a "the EU are evil" conclusion, given the BBC story doesn't mention the EU...

 

[starrymarkb]

Before blaming the EU remember that Siemens stock is usually more expensive then Bombardier. Maybe Bombardier's build issues with the 377s and 172s went against them. (Though the 379s seem to be relativly trouble free), though how a company mitigates this has some bearing - see Alstom as a case in point!

 

[WestCoast]

And West Coast, have to say that some of your posts i havent agreed with, but this certainly is one of them! God, if people really wanted to be pedantic about Bombardier 'because there british' - And this was inlcuded in one comment made on one of Derbys newspapers - that this person will never travel around the country by train again unless its one of Bombardiers Voyagers / 222s...Well good luck to that, as they were built in Bruges! with the interior fitted out in Wakefield! :roll:

No, I think you've misunderstood my post. I am glad Siemens won, I prefer their stock. Its just that some people seem to be under the illusion that bombardier is a fully british product.

 

[fgwrich]

No, I think you've misunderstood my post. I am glad Siemens won, I prefer their stock. Its just that some people seem to be under the illusion that bombardier is a fully british product.

Think ive probably confused the situation here...Im glad too that Siemens has won, they are the better builder, produce better rolling stock, probably have a better support network than bombardiers and will probably arrive earlier than Bombardiers - Not sure in how much of this is true, but of course whilst Siemens was offering the Desiro city - a fairly simular train im guessing to that of the 380, Bombardier had to delay their offering to come up with something more credible - in which that rather uninspiring AVENTRA seemingly has been born - the succesfull? 378 as a base, with the Eco Flexx bogies under it, and various other bits of Bombardier dragged into one product apparently...

Where i think ive confused things is the sort of quote i gave - which was actually a comment made on one of the Derby newspapers - with bombardier gaining the contract, some person made that comment about only traveling around the country on Bombardier produced stock... With the Voyager beeing their main example! - Hence i only used part of my reply of good luck with that, because the 220/221/222s are produced in Bruges....

But i do agree with your comment about the media claiming Bombardier to be british, just because of the derby plant!

 

[WestCoast]

I probably should have been clearer with the post, I was more criticising the media with their cries about Britishness.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The point is who owns the manufacturing plant in Derby is not important. What is important is that this is the last surviving plant in the Uk capable of building rolling stock and there may not be enough work to justify keeping the plant open until the Crossrail contract is awarded. If the plant goes so does the associated skills base. In my view that is the most important issue here. In terms of outsourcing components that is not unique to Bombardier in Derby, everyone does it!

In terms of rolling stock reliability, yes the 172's have had their problems but again they are not unique in this respect! As i understand it the 380's have had their problems too! New designs often often have teething troubles, from iphones to trains! Even the mighty HST's had problems when they were first introduced.

 

[sutty]

...and to clear up my post in t'other thread. I was commenting on the fact that I saw possible redundancies and money flowing to other factories, now I know more detail (thanks, guys!) I can retract my remarks

 

[j0hn0]

The point is who owns the manufacturing plant in Derby is not important. What is important is that this is the last surviving plant in the Uk capable of building rolling stock and there may not be enough work to justify keeping the plant open until the Crossrail contract is awarded. If the plant goes so does the associated skills base. In my view that is the most important issue here. In terms of outsourcing components that is not unique to Bombardier in Derby, everyone does it!

In terms of rolling stock reliability, yes the 172's have had their problems but again they are not unique in this respect! As i understand it the 380's have had their problems too! New designs often often have teething troubles, from iphones to trains! Even the mighty HST's had problems when they were first introduced.

Well, that is down to Bombardier (said the french way and not the english way) and NOT the British government.

The media coverage of this is utterly terrible, as WestCoast has pointed out, I guess no-one remembers the trains where they have actually collaborated together? How about the new ICx? Siemens trains, eco-flex bogies.

I really couldn't care about some pseudo british jobs. Whoever makes the train will HAVE to create jobs here anyway (maintenance, fitting out etc) but as most people have said here, for siemens, it will be mostly in the supply chain, spreading jobs out amongst the country, rather than focus on one factory in Derby. I think that is a much better option.

Plus, the elephant in the room, I HATE EVERY SINGLE BOMBARDIER TRAIN I HAVE EVER TRAVELLED ON, EVERY....SINGLE.....ONE.

Voyager/electros/turbos all terrible trains in comparison to siemens IMO.

Voyager vs ICE-T/TD
Electros vs Desiros
Turbos vs German 642's

Honestly, no contest in my view

 

[cj_1985]

Well, that is down to Bombardier (said the french way and not the english way) and NOT the British government.

The media coverage of this is utterly terrible, as WestCoast has pointed out, I guess no-one remembers the trains where they have actually collaborated together? How about the new ICx? Siemens trains, eco-flex bogies.

I really couldn't care about some pseudo british jobs. Whoever makes the train will HAVE to create jobs here anyway (maintenance, fitting out etc) but as most people have said here, for siemens, it will be mostly in the supply chain, spreading jobs out amongst the country, rather than focus on one factory in Derby. I think that is a much better option.

Plus, the elephant in the room, I HATE EVERY SINGLE BOMBARDIER TRAIN I HAVE EVER TRAVELLED ON, EVERY....SINGLE.....ONE.

Voyager/electros/turbos all terrible trains in comparison to siemens IMO.

Voyager vs ICE-T/TD
Electros vs Desiros
Turbos vs German 642's

Honestly, no contest in my view

and yet again... you cant compare units/stock for use in the UK with stock for use in Europe... different loading gauge for a start, different passenger, operator and route requirements, different weight limits.

personally i dont like the siemens kit...
but if their bid has been selected because it offers the best value for money fair enough... if the decision has been made solely based on lowest bid then thats all wrong.

and i would say the same even if siemens was the one with the factory in the UK

 

[Ferret]

I find myself casting my mind back to the US Air Force and their tanker program. They originally selected the A330 from Airbus, only for there to be some post-last ditch legal challenge which miraculously resulted in Boeing's 767 becoming the aircraft of choice, thus securing and creating thousands of jobs in Seattle. Funny how other people manage to look after their own......

 

[j0hn0]

and yet again... you cant compare units/stock for use in the UK with stock for use in Europe... different loading gauge for a start, different passenger, operator and route requirements, different weight limits.

personally i dont like the siemens kit...
but if their bid has been selected because it offers the best value for money fair enough... if the decision has been made solely based on lowest bid then thats all wrong.

and i would say the same even if siemens was the one with the factory in the UK

Well, I guess we don't have any Siemens high speed stock in this country so I took the nearest example, same with DMUs.

The problems with most desiros are their p155 poor 3+2 seating config, not anything wrong with the trains themselves.

Bombardier trains often are worse than the old trains they supposedly replaced.

Do you think that the p155 poor performance of the 377's on the thameslink route helped to seal the deal for siemens? I think so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find myself casting my mind back to the US Air Force and their tanker program. They originally selected the A330 from Airbus, only for there to be some post-last ditch legal challenge which miraculously resulted in Boeing's 767 becoming the aircraft of choice, thus securing and creating thousands of jobs in Seattle. Funny how other people manage to look after their own......

I think this is the main point.

In this country we can't be seen as protectionist because anything with any kind of nationalistic undertones sends shivers down every lilly livered liberal in this country. And man, is this country full of em?!!

Go ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD and no-one has an issue with this. The whole world laughs at us and the way that we somehow cannot exploit our strongest talents. We just sell it off and then companies shut up shop and go somewhere cheaper.

 

[Snapper]

Interesting, the logic seems to be that a 'British' company can put in an inferior bid and that should be accepted over a better one because, err - they're 'British' - allegedly...

Of course, the truth of the matter is that they lost because their bid wasn't up to scratch - which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the company bidding.

 

[Ferret]

Snapper - in much the same way that the bid put forward by EADS/Airbus was viewed as superior to that put in by Boeing, but ultimately Boeing won because of naked protectionism. I could understand it if the trains produced by Litchurch Lane were of a poor quality, but (LO 172s aside), they aren't are they?

 

[gordonthemoron]

at least Thameslink is not being lumbered with Alstom's new range of EMUs. bloody awful

 

[strange6]

I find it interesting that you leap to a "the EU are evil" conclusion, given the BBC story doesn't mention the EU...

They are evil. The News of the World mentioned this EU thing

 

[j0hn0]

They are evil. The News of the World mentioned this EU thing

I think anything based in France or Belgium, masquerading as "Europe" should all be treated as suspicious.