Bombardier-Rolls-Royce joint venture for hybrid train

[Rob F]

This just discussed on East Midlands news:

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/o...ect-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpacks.aspx

Rolls-Royce and Porterbrook, the UK’s largest owner of passenger rolling stock, have agreed the delivery of MTU Hybrid PowerPacks that can convert Class 168 and Class 170 ‘Turbostar’ DMUs from diesel-only to hybrid-electric operation. Hybrid technology allows for the cleaner and quieter operation of trains in stations and through urban areas.

The Letter of Intent, which was signed at rail industry trade show Innotrans, covers the delivery of hybrid systems for installation on two test trains. Following trials, Porterbrook aims to offer hybrid conversion to a range of customers operating existing Turbostar fleets.

This is the first agreement for the delivery of MTU hybrid drive systems in the UK....

 

[jon0844]

This just discussed on East Midlands news:

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/o...ect-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpacks.aspx

Excellent news.

 

[squizzler]

Is it too late for the CAF units for Wales to have the same power pack?

 

[samuelmorris]

About time. If we're not seeing electrification any time soon, this is definitely technology that should be being used. It should also help extend the lifespan of early post-privatisation DMUs, which rather scarily, are already fast approaching their originally intended end-of-life in the next 5-10 years.

 

[superkev]

Article in the independent.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ains-diesel-alternative-railway-a8545111.html
I wonder what capacity and weight the batteries are. I would have thought the 170's were heavy enough as well as a bit cramped under without tons of batteries needed for decent performance.
The way things are going with the current demand for rare lithium we may have to start mining asteroids soon
K

 

[najaB]

The way things are going with the current demand for rare lithium...

Lithium isn't rare...

 

[superkev]

Lithium isn't rare...

From Wikipedia "According to the Handbook of Lithium and Natural Calcium, "Lithium is a comparatively rare element, although it is found in many rocks and some brines, but always in very low concentrations."
K

 

[najaB]

From Wikipedia "According to the Handbook of Lithium and Natural Calcium, "Lithium is a comparatively rare element, although it is found in many rocks and some brines, but always in very low concentrations."
K

Oh, comparatively rare yes. But not rare. It's only slightly less abundant than nitrogen.

 

[hwl]

In Chemistry "rare" historically included dilute e.g. "rare earth" group elements most aren't too rare just found in very dilute ores. Lithium is dilute not rare.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Well i hope they get a prototype up and running and tested to destruction along time before being needed or we will end up with another Class 769 Flex farce!!

Sorry for being negative.

There is just too much going wrong on our railways at the moment.

 

[dubscottie]

Lithium isn't rare...

At current production rates it is. Tesla for example would need every mg of worldwide lithium production for the next 20 years to even get close to its fanciful targets.

 

[najaB]

At current production rates it is. Tesla for example would need every mg of worldwide lithium production for the next 20 years to even get close to its fanciful targets.

It's not rare. Difficult to produce, yes. But rare? There's at least 9 million tons of economically extractable lithium in proven ore reserves.

 

[Midnight Sun]

Biggest reserves are said to be in landlocked Bolivia.

 

[Mikey C]

This project sounds like an excellent idea. Drastically reducing NOx and particulate emissions in key pollution blackspots (like New Street) would be a very good result, and politically popular. It will be interesting to see how far they can travel on battery power, what distance into and out of Marylebone could they manage for example, or would it literally just be the final stretch

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It will be interesting to see how far they can travel on battery power, what distance into and out of Marylebone could they manage for example, or would it literally just be the final stretch

Elsewhere it was reported that Chiltern would be experimenting with battery packs in a 165 or two. I did wonder whether they would fit conductor shoes, so they could recharge on trips to Aylesbury when they share tracks with the Metropolitan line.

If there hybrids catch on, there becomes a case by electrifying terminus stations such a Marylebone, to enable units to recharge. It's a possible solution for Thames Valley branches as well.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not sure assessing clearance with shoes fitted on the rest of the Chiltern network would make that a viable proposition, even though I agree it's a good idea in practice. There's also the issue of how much power is available from the LU supply without affecting their operations. Not sure if that part of the line has been upgraded to 750V yet?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm not sure assessing clearance with shoes fitted on the rest of the Chiltern network would make that a viable proposition, even though I agree it's a good idea in practice. There's also the issue of how much power is available from the LU supply without affecting their operations. Not sure if that part of the line has been upgraded to 750V yet?

A poster on District Dave's Forum reports the upgrades have been completed. Harrow - Uxbridge and Finchley Road - Harrow remain at 630V nominal because 73TS would be "unhappy" if it received 750V (potentially up to 890V with regenerative braking) and the shared supply with the Jubilee (including Neasden depot).

 

[samuelmorris]

Uxbridge I can understand (and presumably that will be corrected post-NtFL), but Finchley Road - Harrow-on-the-Hill is a bit of a nuisance as I can't see the 96TS being modified. In any case, the cost of such a system is probably likely to outweigh its advantages. Endpoint charging at the likes of Marylebone, AVP and so on will probably be the best option.

 

[superkev]

Allthough it's nice to see Rolls Royce mentioned is sad that its probably all is made outside the UK.
K

 

[Geoff DC]

I was told some years ago by a Rolls Director 'British Brains' & the brawn comes from wherever it is cheapest

These days I guess its: The best brains & the cheapest brawn

 

[WatcherZero]

Allthough it's nice to see Rolls Royce mentioned is sad that its probably all is made outside the UK.
K

Well it is a Germany company, MTU are Maybach Motors but have been owned by Daimler/Chrysler since the 80's but then became a wholly owned subsidiary of Rolls Royce in 2011.

This is basically the same powerpack engines as in IEP just with added batteries.

 

[100andthirty]

WatcherZero......The press release says it's a 6h 1800 - a six cylinder engine. I doubt there is space under the floor of an class 170 to accommodate the IEP V12 engine

 

[hwl]

WatcherZero......The press release says it's a 6h 1800 - a six cylinder engine. I doubt there is space under the floor of an class 170 to accommodate the IEP V12 engine

Effectively the same basic engine as is already underneath the 170s just different injection and turbo/exhaust system designs [ignoring transmission discussions which are the big change]

 

[hwl]

Allthough it's nice to see Rolls Royce mentioned is sad that its probably all is made outside the UK.
K

RR has considerable expertise in both electric transmissions and battery systems (especially for RN etc) so likely to be some UK content.

 

[superkev]

RR has considerable expertise in both electric transmissions and battery systems (especially for RN etc) so likely to be some UK content.

As a retired electrical engineer I'd like to think so but with the UK seemingly being de-skilled by successive governments (March of the clerks) I suspect it 99% European with perhaps far eastern batteries.
Can't help thinking Portabrook are, like the class 769, clutching at straws to try cope with the DFT's current addiction to new, mostly foreign trains.
K

 

[w1bbl3]

Isn't this just a effectively a press release announcing the first UK user of the hybridisation kit MTU offer for most of their current diesel electric powerpacks?

The hybrid battery and control electronics "Energypack" in MTU speak was I thought a common component allowing the battery to be mounted separately to the main powerpack. This is I'd have thought is the opening push by MTU offering a re-engining option that also complies with stage V emissions for existing powerpack fleets as the engines reach end of life.

I'd expect to see hybrid powerpacks show up as engine options for bimode replacement fleets.

 

[WatcherZero]

WatcherZero......The press release says it's a 6h 1800 - a six cylinder engine. I doubt there is space under the floor of an class 170 to accommodate the IEP V12 engine

The 1800 series are 6 cylinder versions of the 1600 series. They 1800 are a fair bit lighter (800-2000kg) but they have the same overall physical dimensions, just in two pieces (batteries seperate) rather the 1600 being a single piece (batteries inside the frame). There is also additional battery capacity on the 1800, 30.6-122.4KVH more than the originals 70kVH

 

[physics34]

need the opposite for the Uckfield and Marshlink lines down here...... also for services to salisbury and beyond.................. A kit for converting 3rd rail Electrostars to bi-mode!

 

[superkev]

I'd be interested on what size battery there proposing. I would think it would need to me able to provide full power for 90sec or so needed to get up to say 60mph. Volvo buses do just 12secomds on battery before the engine kicks in.
K

 

[gage75]

I'd be interested on what size battery there proposing. I would think it would need to me able to provide full power for 90sec or so needed to get up to say 60mph. Volvo buses do just 12secomds on battery before the engine kicks in.
K

IIRC I think the Volvo bus engines kick in at a certain speed of 20mph