Borderlands time keeping challenges

[Peter Sarf]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-introduction-on-the-borderlands-line.191986/

Why on earth should prospective rail passengers in settlements with long-established railway stations be subject to inconvenience just because the type of rail ltraction is not of the quality required?


You can be assured that those organisations mentioned above would indeed make their feelings on this particular aspiration known rather loudly

From what other posters are saying there has always been a problem with the Borderlands line. The schedule is simply too tight for a reliable hourly service using two trains.
Suggested solutions have been (among others) :-
1) Losing a few stations (not popular),
2) Adding an extra unit so layovers at the ends of the route can be more realistic (no one wants to pay for 50% more units for no service increase),
3) Trains with better acceleration,
4) Faster doors.
For 3 There was the expectation that the Borderlands version of the 230s have better acceleration.
For 4 I wonder what the downside of faster doors is ?.

It is not worth comparing the timekeeping performance of the Borderlands version of 230s until the trains and drivers have bedded in.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From what other posters are saying there has always been a problem with the Borderlands line. The schedule is simply too tight for a reliable hourly service using two trains.
Suggested solutions have been (among others) :-
1) Losing a few stations (not popular),
2) Adding an extra unit so layovers at the ends of the route can be more realistic (no one wants to pay for 50% more units for no service increase),
3) Trains with better acceleration,
4) Faster doors.
For 3 There was the expectation that the Borderlands version of the 230s have better acceleration.
For 4 I wonder what the downside of faster doors is ?.

It is not worth comparing the timekeeping performance of the Borderlands version of 230s until the trains and drivers have bedded in.

There is not much "other " innovation to choose from in terms of trains on the railways. I like to think innovation should be given a chance - otherwise we would still be riding around behind locomotives similar to Stephenson's Rocket.

Don't let the same class number fool you. These Borderlands 230s are rather different to the Marston Vale 230s which were solely powered direct from the diesel engines.

Also lets face it there is not a surplus of 150s etc to use an an alternative.

I have been wondering. Was there a plan at this stage to run on non-working days (ie weekends and bank-holidays) or not ?.

There is another alternative. Reduce the frequency to 75 minutes. Assume there has to remain a tight turn at Bidston to keep clear of the electrics but you could add some padding prior to arrival at, and after departure from Bidston, plus the remainder at Wrexham. Trains would still connect into / out of Liverpool services, just not quite as frequently. A 75 minute frequency is not as good, nor as memorable, as an hourly service but is a train every 75 minutes better than none every 60?

 

[Djgr]

There is another alternative. Reduce the frequency to 75 minutes. Assume there has to remain a tight turn at Bidston to keep clear of the electrics but you could add some padding prior to arrival at, and after departure from Bidston, plus the remainder at Wrexham. Trains would still connect into / out of Liverpool services, just not quite as frequently. A 75 minute frequency is not as good, nor as memorable, as an hourly service but is a train every 75 minutes better than none every 60?

I am not sure what merit going down this path might be, given that the service is shortly planned to be half-hourly (as stated in comment just above)

 

[DLAYKEGER]

There is another alternative. Reduce the frequency to 75 minutes. Assume there has to remain a tight turn at Bidston to keep clear of the electrics but you could add some padding prior to arrival at, and after departure from Bidston, plus the remainder at Wrexham. Trains would still connect into / out of Liverpool services, just not quite as frequently. A 75 minute frequency is not as good, nor as memorable, as an hourly service but is a train every 75 minutes better than none every 60?

That would be a terrible idea, whilst all the other lines on the Wirral have a 15min interval service, our hourly service is bad enough already, and at the moment we have the worst service possible with a train that is no good to commute to either Liverpool or Wrexham by 9am and buses. Maybe if the Welsh assembly invested less on transportion in South Wales (multi-million £ Souuth Wales Metro versus 2nd hand D trains / all road schemes cancelled in North Wales). They as a minimum need to get rid of speed restrictions on the line, get signslling / switches sorted at cement factory and invest in new stock

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is another alternative. Reduce the frequency to 75 minutes. Assume there has to remain a tight turn at Bidston to keep clear of the electrics but you could add some padding prior to arrival at, and after departure from Bidston, plus the remainder at Wrexham. Trains would still connect into / out of Liverpool services, just not quite as frequently. A 75 minute frequency is not as good, nor as memorable, as an hourly service but is a train every 75 minutes better than none every 60?

Tempting but an hourly frequency is an important attraction.

I do wonder if the route should be split in half at some where North of Shotton.

I would then make the North end an easy 30 min frequency (and so with good turn around times) and the South end an easy 60 minute frequency (again alowing god turn around times).

With a good hourly connection possible in the middle there would be less problem for through passengers. That would cost one extra train but with that concentrated at the Liverpool end.

I am assuming demand is higher at the Liverpool end?

I am also wondering if end to end journeys are realistic via Chester?

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Maybe they need to install TVMs at stations to reduce the guards workload to help speed up door opening

 

[Bikeman78]

-Inadequate timetable (which it has been for decades) meaning little to no turnaround time causing delays to carry over all day. I believe introduced by BR to require less trains/crew to run the service to cut costs. Shotton turn backs due to late running where a daily occurrence on the line for years when 153s ran it!

This is the crux of the matter. The only sensible way to run this line is with three sets of stock and 25-30 minute layovers at each end. If the half hourly service ever happens then five units would still give a decent turnround time.

 

[Djgr]

One way to help would be revert to several (more) of the stations being request only. This might buy you a few minutes in the off-peak.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One way to help would be revert to several (more) of the stations being request only. This might buy you a few minutes in the off-peak.

This is yet another ball to put in the Transport for Wales court.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

One way to help would be revert to several (more) of the stations being request only. This might buy you a few minutes in the off-peak.

You would probably need the recently introduced stop at station button as per scotrail for that to be effective as I assune drivers would still probably slow down. Surely speeding track up times would be a better strategy

 

[zwk500]

You would probably need the recently introduced stop at station button as per scotrail for that to be effective as I assune drivers would still probably slow down. Surely speeding track up times would be a better strategy

The most effective way to speed up a journey is to raise the lowest speeds. However I generally think request stops are a false economy any way because of how they're timed - if you wanted to allow the train to get a bit ahead of itself you could just advertise the departure 1 or 2 minutes early.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The most effective way to speed up a journey is to raise the lowest speeds. However I generally think request stops are a false economy any way because of how they're timed - if you wanted to allow the train to get a bit ahead of itself you could just advertise the departure 1 or 2 minutes early.

I know the train crawls out of Bidston for first section to Upton and I think there is / was a load of new metal sleepers by the side to replace old track there. Where else are the low speeds and what are the chief causes.

Do TFW / Network Rail have plans to eliminate any of these, as from the 230 thread it seems from the guards recent report back, it does not look like they will out perform 150s by much.