Boro Taxis 'will not take disabled people' in fares row

[transmanche]

By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical.

Apples and oranges.

Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!

So why is every London black cab wheelchair accessible? Has it put all the drivers out of business?

The taxi firm in Falmouth that richw highlighted manages not to overcharge - as do many other taxi firms across the country.

But Borough Taxis seem to think they are a special case. If the "North East's largest taxi firm" cannot manager a mixed fleet of appropriately-sized vehicles then they don't deserve to hold a licence.

 

[DarloRich]

A wheelchair accessible taxi-if they only have an accessible 8 seater what else can they send. If you go into a baker and hope to buy a small sausage roll, if they don't have one you buy a large one or don't!



By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical. Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Shall we just agree to disagree otherwise we'll be here all night?

I am walking away now because you seem unable or unwilling to grasp a very simple concept: That the disabled customer can not be charged more for receiving the same service as an able bodied person.

The service is the key, the mode, style or type of conveyance does not matter.

Your proposed terms do exactly that - they charge the disabled customer more for receiving the same service, that of being conveyed in a taxi from point A-B, as the able bodied person. Using your facetious example above the baker would be able charge the disabled person more for the same jumbo sausage roll because he had to bend down to give it to him!

Now i will agree that if a party of disabled people want moving and need an 8 seater they pay the same rate as a party of bale bodied customers.

 

[ECML180]

Using your facetious example above the baker would be able charge the disabled person more for the same jumbo sausage roll because he had to bend down to give it to him!

You don't have to agree with my opinion, but there's no need to be rude.

Clearly no-one wishes to accept my opinion as being valid so all I'll say on this topic is two things:

1) I think there is a business case for all businesses, especially in the transport sector for being customer friendly, this goes from basic customer service to having a fully accessible fleet. I think the move towards all public transport vehicles being fully accessible is a good one, however I appreciate that it must come at a cost.

2) Some of you don't understand this, but there is a difference between taxis in London and private hire vehicles in other areas, especially when they can operate into rural areas. There is a lot more empty mileage involved and the passengers are a totally different demographic. Equity and quality are relative, something might make it fairer for the disabled, but it may take money out of someone else's pocket. Some places may be affected differently to others. This is all I was attempting to point out.

 

[DarloRich]

You don't have to agree with my opinion, but there's no need to be rude.

Clearly no-one wishes to accept my opinion as being valid so all I'll say on this topic is two things:

1) I think there is a business case for all businesses, especially in the transport sector for being customer friendly, this goes from basic customer service to having a fully accessible fleet. I think the move towards all public transport vehicles being fully accessible is a good one, however I appreciate that it must come at a cost.

2) Some of you don't understand this, but there is a difference between taxis in London and private hire vehicles in other areas, especially when they can operate into rural areas. There is a lot more empty mileage involved and the passengers are a totally different demographic. Equity and quality are relative, something might make it fairer for the disabled, but it may take money out of someone else's pocket. Some places may be affected differently to others. This is all I was attempting to point out.

That isn't what you said!

Having lived in a rural area in North Yorkshire for many years the fares for a taxi even to the nearest town ( if you could get one!) were higher than the city. I think you may have a case for indicating that some form of support be granted to companies who offer this service in these areas to allow the companies to off set their losses

However Boro cabs operate in a high population density area and have a vast fleet of liveried vehicles.

As for rudeness, that wasn't me being rude. You will know when i am (apologies if it seemed i was rude. It was not my intention)

 

[ECML180]

As for rudeness, that wasn't me being rude. You will know when i am (apologies if it seemed i was rude. It was not my intention)

Thank you. I intent to phrase my opinions well, but it doesn't always work but at the end of the day all I'm here for is a reasonable discussion. I'm happy to say that the post you quote there is the most accurate summation of my opinion.

 

[DarloRich]

Thank you. I intent to phrase my opinions well, but it doesn't always work but at the end of the day all I'm here for is a reasonable discussion. I'm happy to say that the post you quote there is the most accurate summation of my opinion.

we are in partial agreement then A good day all round!

 

[Wolfie]

ECML180 I am afraid Darlo states the legal position exactly and precisely. The reality is that legislation of various kinds imposes costs on business, something the Govt takes account of but rarely if ever acts to mitigate. In this case Boro has three options:
a If the only wheelchair accessible vehicle they have is an 8 seater and a wheelchair user needs a vehicle then they send that vehicle and suck up any nominal financial loss;
b They acquire other, smaller, wheelchair accessible vehicles and use these for wheelchair users;
c They cease to function as a "minicab" firm as either failing to do my option a or refusing to carry diabled people will, quite rightly, result in either their prosecution under the Equalities Act or loss of their license to operate from the local authority or quite possibly both.

 

[Greenback]

ECML180 I am afraid Darlo states the legal position exactly and precisely. The reality is that legislation of various kinds imposes costs on business, something the Govt takes account of but rarely if ever acts to mitigate. In this case Boro has three options:
a If the only wheelchair accessible vehicle they have is an 8 seater and a wheelchair user needs a vehicle then they send that vehicle and suck up any nominal financial loss;
b They acquire other, smaller, wheelchair accessible vehicles and use these for wheelchair users;
c They cease to function as a "minicab" firm as either failing to do my option a or refusing to carry diabled people will, quite rightly, result in either their prosecution under the Equalities Act or loss of their license to operate from the local authority or quite possibly both.

As I understand the Eaulity Act, this interpretation is spot on.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In this case Boro has three options:
a If the only wheelchair accessible vehicle they have is an 8 seater and a wheelchair user needs a vehicle then they send that vehicle and suck up any nominal financial loss;
b They acquire other, smaller, wheelchair accessible vehicles and use these for wheelchair users

Precisely.

Boro Taxis have chosen to combine wheelchair accessibility with minibuses. This makes sound financial sense: they have a minibus for the lucrative airport transfers, etc, at times when the wheelchair accessibility is not required.

But that doesn't mean they can charge a wheelchair passenger more money because of their business decision. They charge them the taxi rate to get from A to B. If they don't like this or find it commercially acceptable, they can buy wheelchair accessible cars instead.

The losses are nominal in any event. Even the taxi fare will more than adequately cover the running costs of a minibus, which are not really very much higher than a normal car.

ECML180's argument is essentially the same as saying that Stagecoach should be allowed to charge me double because they stuck a decker on the route instead of a E200.

 

[TUC]

I suspect this is a long-standing issue, judging by my experience with Boro Taxis/Boro Cars (and other Middlesbrough operators) several years ago.

My mother-in-law was a wheelchair user. On a number of occeasions she wanted to attend our church with us but when I rung Boro Taxis/Boro Cars on each occeasion I was told that no wheelchair accessible vehicles were available. I was puzzled by this given that Sunday mornings were unlikely to be times of high demand and queried this. I was told to go to the town centre and flag one down if I wanted one. Given we did not live in the town centre this was pretty useless advice. However it did make me strongly suspect that it meant that all their wheelchair accessible vehicles (in the form of black cabs) were only licenced as taxis and they were not making them available as private hire. Ringing round other operators also did not result in any availability, except for one operator who advertised himself as specialising in accessible transport and changed a premium rate.

This issue reached its peak in a nightmare evening when we had taken my mother-in-law out for a meal in Coulby Newham (five miles from Middlesbrough). We managed to book an accessible vehicle in early evening OK but, when we came to getting back home around 2100, no matter how many operators we rang, all said they had no accessible vehicles on the road. In the end we had to push my mother-in-law one mile across to the stop for te only bus service with accessible vehicles. Given the number of accessible taxis that were seen around town during the day it was an appalling situation and it was apparent that operators were making no effort to have accessible vehicles available.

I recognise the distinction between taxis and private hire but the reality is that operators do not make a distinction between these in their publicity. They do not say on the side of taxis or on adverts anything like 'Boro Taxis-to book a private hire vehicle ring 01642 xxxxx'. Instead it is 'Boro Taxis-01642 xxxx' (If in any doubt, look at http://www.borotaxis.co.uk/ ).

On this basis, it is firstly unsurprising that the public would be confused, and secondly it is discriminatory to have vehicles in their fleet but to organise their business in such a manner that in practice they are not available.

 

[ECML180]

I was puzzled by this given that Sunday mornings were unlikely to be times of high demand

But Saturday nights are Many drivers work until the early hours of Sunday morning and so won't work until after lunchtime.

 

[TUC]

I was puzzled by this given that Sunday mornings were unlikely to be times of high demand

But Saturday nights are Many drivers work until the early hours of Sunday morning and so won't work until after lunchtime.

i meant in terms of vehicle availability. It would not be unreasonable to expect that, even if fewer drivers were available on Sunday mornings, to at least make sure that accessible vehicles were included in those out on the road.

 

[34D]

A wheelchair accessible taxi-if they only have an accessible 8 seater what else can they send. If you go into a baker and hope to buy a small sausage roll, if they don't have one you buy a large one or don't!



By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical. Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Shall we just agree to disagree otherwise we'll be here all night?

Your viewpoint is sadly typical. A property developer I know was doing a new build development, and on being told he had to put a £10,000 lift in, said "this development is for working professional people, not the disabled on benefits".

Fortunately for him he had paid for a good team of advisors
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

i meant in terms of vehicle availability. It would not be unreasonable to expect that, even if fewer drivers were available on Sunday mornings, to at least make sure that accessible vehicles were included in those out on the road.

Typically, taxi and private hire companies operate with self-employed drivers leasing a vehicle (sometimes from the company, sometimes elsewhere).

Swapping vehicles is rarely done. A day in the garage is aligned with a day off work, etc.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

 

[richw]

Typically, taxi and private hire companies operate with self-employed drivers leasing a vehicle (sometimes from the company, sometimes elsewhere).

Swapping vehicles is rarely done. A day in the garage is aligned with a day off work, etc.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

Round here it is a mix, one company (the largest in town) are all centrally owned and the drivers take which ever car they're told to by the manager in the morning.
The rest are all self employed owner drivers who pay a fee to the company owner to use their name and get business from their telephone lines. When this is the case there is no guarantee of what vehicles will be available, could be all wheelchair accessible, but on the other hand all the cars out could be Mondeos/ Octavias etc.

 

[IanD]

Your viewpoint is sadly typical. A property developer I know was doing a new build development, and on being told he had to put a £10,000 lift in, said "this development is for working professional people, not the disabled on benefits".

Fortunately for him he had paid for a good team of advisors

Not sure what your point is here. Did he have to put the lift in? Or did his advisors get around the requirement?

 

[ECML180]

Your viewpoint is sadly typical. A property developer I know was doing a new build development, and on being told he had to put a £10,000 lift in, said "this development is for working professional people, not the disabled on benefits".

Fortunately for him he had paid for a good team of advisors

I'm not sure what your point is, I'm all for accessibility for the disabled but I appreciate it has to come at a cost. All new builds, whether houses or public transport vehicles, should be accessible IMO but at the end of the day adding the cost of accessibility on to a taxi can increase the price by a good proportion, whereas a lift in a new development must be a small percentage of the overall cost.

If you're suggesting that I'm like your developer friend and consider the disabled a drain on society then you're completely wrong.

 

[WSW]

I'm not sure what your point is, I'm all for accessibility for the disabled but I appreciate it has to come at a cost. All new builds, whether houses or public transport vehicles, should be accessible IMO but at the end of the day adding the cost of accessibility on to a taxi can increase the price by a good proportion, whereas a lift in a new development must be a small percentage of the overall cost.

If you're suggesting that I'm like your developer friend and consider the disabled a drain on society then you're completely wrong.

I've just bought a new wheelchair accessible vehicle for my family (same model as used by many taxi firms) and the price is £6K cheaper than my previous 10 year old wheelchair-accessible vehicle, also bought from new. Perhaps the legislation has increased the demand for wheelchair-accessible vehicles and thus brought down the price, in our case similar to a standard saloon from the same manufacturer. So I'm not sure that taxi firms are paying excessively to provide a wheelchair-accessible service.

Steve
wsr.org.uk

 

[ECML180]

I've just bought a new wheelchair accessible vehicle for my family (same model as used by many taxi firms) and the price is £6K cheaper than my previous 10 year old wheelchair-accessible vehicle, also bought from new. Perhaps the legislation has increased the demand for wheelchair-accessible vehicles and thus brought down the price, in our case similar to a standard saloon from the same manufacturer. So I'm not sure that taxi firms are paying excessively to provide a wheelchair-accessible service.

Steve
wsr.org.uk

I'm not expert on the subject, but it doesn't surprise me that prices have come down as the technology has become more commonplace and also demand has increased. If you don't mind me asking, how much more did it cost than the same vehicle but without the accessibility features?

 

[richw]

I've just bought a new wheelchair accessible vehicle for my family (same model as used by many taxi firms) and the price is £6K cheaper than my previous 10 year old wheelchair-accessible vehicle, also bought from new. Perhaps the legislation has increased the demand for wheelchair-accessible vehicles and thus brought down the price, in our case similar to a standard saloon from the same manufacturer. So I'm not sure that taxi firms are paying excessively to provide a wheelchair-accessible service.

Steve
wsr.org.uk

My Grandad has a Kangoo, with ramp etc, for driving my gran about it. He bought it himself as Gran wasn't eligible for disability allowance as she was too old. New price was around £20k. Compared to a standard Kangoo which was around £10k at the time.

 

[WSW]

My Grandad has a Kangoo, with ramp etc, for driving my gran about it. He bought it himself as Gran wasn't eligible for disability allowance as she was too old. New price was around £20k. Compared to a standard Kangoo which was around £10k at the time.

Fair enough. My own example may not be typical and it may depend on the bespoke modifications. We did find a wide range of prices from several specialist providers out there - different makes/models and many options. Ours has a manual ramp and wheelchair clamps, but that's all a taxi needs...and all for around the same price as a saloon car.

Steve
wsr.org.uk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not expert on the subject, but it doesn't surprise me that prices have come down as the technology has become more commonplace and also demand has increased. If you don't mind me asking, how much more did it cost than the same vehicle but without the accessibility features?

About the same price. I guess some of the bulk purchase of the base models is passed on to the customer...

Steve

 

[TUC]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Typically, taxi and private hire companies operate with self-employed drivers leasing a vehicle (sometimes from the company, sometimes elsewhere).

Swapping vehicles is rarely done. A day in the garage is aligned with a day off work, etc.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

But presumably the owners of taxi firms have an interest in having a co-ordinating role, even for their self-employed drivers, to make sure that there are a sufficient number of vehicles on the road at the right time (since the owners will presumably be getting commission on fares). Therefore this role should reasonably include whether a sufficient number of accessible vehicles are on the road.

 

[starrymarkb]

I'm pretty sure our council want all Hackney Carriages to be accessible. Certainly the fleet in the city is all TX4s (Wheelchair accessible) or Dolbos with rear ramp.

The Private Hire fleet is a different matter with the largest company using mostly Prius Hybrids

 

[ECML180]

My Grandad has a Kangoo, with ramp etc, for driving my gran about it. He bought it himself as Gran wasn't eligible for disability allowance as she was too old. New price was around £20k. Compared to a standard Kangoo which was around £10k at the time.

That's the sort of price I've seen talked about, though I'm certainly no expert.

About the same price. I guess some of the bulk purchase of the base models is passed on to the customer...

Steve

Could well be, I imagine different manufacturers do it differently, I think I've seen factory fitted tail lifts before as well as manual ramps fitted by a 'specialist' on the same model so it doesn't surprise me that the additional price varies so much.

Having said that if I was a taxi driver I wouldn't fancy a manual ramp, with some of the vehicles I imagine that you'd have to go up quite a height, not to mention the distance you'll need clear behind you compared to a tail lift!

 

[richw]

Having said that if I was a taxi driver I wouldn't fancy a manual ramp, with some of the vehicles I imagine that you'd have to go up quite a height, not to mention the distance you'll need clear behind you compared to a tail lift!

Many of the wheelchair modified vehicles have lowered floors, my Grandad's Kangoo the wheel chair side is considerably lowered.

 

[ECML180]

Many of the wheelchair modified vehicles have lowered floors, my Grandad's Kangoo the wheel chair side is considerably lowered.

Was it side entry? Or dropped between the wheels at the back?

 

[TUC]

Item on wheelchair accessible vehicles in tonight's One Show. Frustratingly vague reporting on the legal position though.