Bought ticket on the train

[anon56789]

Hello,

I was travelling back from London Marlyebone and the train was about to leave and the gate guy let me through as I needed to get home before my daughter went to bed.

I got on the train and got bought a single ticket on the Trainline app as a guest. Revenue officer comes over and checks my ticket and says you bought this while on board.

He asked for my ID but I had nothing on me as I’d been at work and don’t carry a wallet. He was being hostile and kept asking for my details and I said I’ve got a ticket so why are you causing a fuss.

He walked off and said he’d see me in court in a few weeks.

What sort of trouble am I in? Can they find my personal address from a guest log in on the Trainline app via my payment card or my email?

I’ve got the receipt and can prove I paid the fare as it’s on my online banking and my app.

Thanks

 

[furlong]

Has this just happened? Write straight away to ask for the CCTV from the station to be preserved, narrowing it down as tightly as you can; and if you go there regularly and can identify the person who let you through, it would be good to get a statement from them while it is fresh in their mind and there's a chance they'll remember and support your account, but you need to get this done carefully with a bit of thought as there are different ways to do it and various pros and cons. (E.g. just noting their name badge and no more for now; asking an independent person to talk to them; doing it informally vs formally; doing it via a supervisor or via another revenue person who happens to be present at the station at the time etc.)

Also how many minutes were there between boarding the train and purchasing the ticket? Between purchasing the ticket and the inspector talking to you?

Also what precisely did you say to the "gate guy" about your ticket and why you needed to be let through?

 

[anon56789]

To be honest I was in a rush so didn’t catch the person who let me through. I go through twice a week and never really catch the person.

Either way, where do I stand with buying a ticket? It’s an anytime single so I assume can be used whenever?

I reckon I’d be sat down for about 5-10 minutes before he came over (it’s only a 25 minute journey)

 

[roastyduck]

To be honest I was in a rush so didn’t catch the person who let me through. I go through twice a week and never really catch the person.

Either way, where do I stand with buying a ticket? It’s an anytime single so I assume can be used whenever?

I reckon I’d be sat down for about 5-10 minutes before he came over (it’s only a 25 minute journey)

That's where you went wrong, if you've been let through you need to purchase it at your earliest opportunity which would be the second you board the train and if need be sit down and instantly buy it. 5-10 minutes Is a fair long time and long enough for the inspectors to assume you saw them coming so decided to buy one which is extremely common.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did he scan your ticket? Did he take any of your details at all?

 

[anon56789]

That's where you went wrong, if you've been let through you need to purchase it at your earliest opportunity which would be the second you board the train and if need be sit down and instantly buy it. 5-10 minutes Is a fair long time and long enough for the inspectors to assume you saw them coming so decided to buy one which is extremely common.

I mean he caught me 5-10 minutes after I’d bought the ticket. Bought it when I sat down

Did he scan your ticket? Did he take any of your details at all?

Yeah he scanned the ticket as he requested it. Thought it would be fine no?

Trainline app wasn’t logged in, so just a guest payment

 

[AlterEgo]

Trainline app wasn’t logged in, so just a guest payment

If he didn't take your details and verify who was travelling there is very little he can do. You should not really have refused to give your details, though, as that is a further offence I'm afraid. However, it seems like you will face no action this time.

 

[furlong]

Where you stand is that :
(a) you're relying on the person who let you through the gate doing so knowing that you didn't have a ticket but were about to buy one, and you would have to prove this in court but the company would help you (e.g. by giving you CCTV, assisting with identifying the gateline assistant to obtain a statement)
(b) there's a chance nothing will happen and you were just 'let off' because it was too much bother, but they'll be looking out for you next time
(c) if written to and you have a decent track record as a regular reliable commuter they might take your word for it and taken no further action.

 

[ikcdab]

I mean he caught me 5-10 minutes after I’d bought the ticket. Bought it when I sat down


Yeah he scanned the ticket as he requested it. Thought it would be fine no?

Trainline app wasn’t logged in, so just a guest payment

I dont know how much you can see when you are a guest on trainline, but can you see what time the ticket was bought? You should be able to compare that to actual the departure time of the train. If its only a minute or (at the most two) then you would have grounds for appeal. Can you find that info? If so, I woudl be saving or screenshotting that info now,

 

[anon56789]

Yeah I know. I feel bad for getting angry with him as he was being aggressive to me. I genuinely didn’t have ID on me and I had a valid ticket for the journey.

So you think he would have just forgotten about it seen as I didn’t refuse to pay and I wasn’t avoiding paying?

I dont know how much you can see when you are a guest on trainline, but can you see what time the ticket was bought? You should be able to compare that to actual the departure time of the train. If it’s only a minute or (at the most two) then you would have grounds for appeal. Can you find that info? If so, I woudl be saving or screenshotting that info now,

Yeah train left at 615 and I bought it at 6.23. Marleybone has no reception for a few mins due to the tunnels

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah I know. I feel bad for getting angry with him as he was being aggressive to me. I genuinely didn’t have ID on me and I had a valid ticket for the journey.

So you think he would have just forgotten about it seen as I didn’t refuse to pay and I wasn’t avoiding paying?

The train company needs to verify who was travelling and committing the offence. If they don't have your details because you refused to give them or say who you were, and there is no bodycam footage, likely nothing will happen and he was just trying to put the frighteners on you.

 

[anon56789]

The train company needs to verify who was travelling and committing the offence. If they don't have your details because you refused to give them or say who you were, and there is no bodycam footage, likely nothing will happen and he was just trying to put the frighteners on you.

Appreciate the feedback! Fingers crossed it’s all ok.

Thanks!

 

[Wolfie]

Yeah I know. I feel bad for getting angry with him as he was being aggressive to me. I genuinely didn’t have ID on me and I had a valid ticket for the journey.

So you think he would have just forgotten about it seen as I didn’t refuse to pay and I wasn’t avoiding paying?


Yeah train left at 615 and I bought it at 6.23. Marleybone has no reception for a few mins due to the tunnels

Technically if you only bought a ticket after the train departed you did not have a valid ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Technically if you only bought a ticket after the train departed you did not have a valid ticket.

A ticket bought after boarding is valid for travel, but the act of boarding without it is the offence.

 

[ikcdab]

Yeah train left at 615 and I bought it at 6.23. Marleybone has no reception for a few mins due to the tunnels

I dont think you will hear any more, but what you said above doesnt match with your previous "I mean he caught me 5-10 minutes after I’d bought the ticket. Bought it when I sat down"

 

[Wolfie]

A ticket bought after boarding is valid for travel, but the act of boarding without it is the offence.

Ah, a good point, TY.

 

[anon56789]

I dont think you will hear any more, but what you said above doesnt match with your previous "I mean he caught me 5-10 minutes after I’d bought the ticket. Bought it when I sat down"

Bought it as soon as we went through the Marlyebone tunnel*

 

[185]

A reminder that with guest accounts, payment cardholder name and potentially cardholder address are visible to the merchant (the travel agent) and this could be shared with the operator.

 

[anon56789]

A reminder that with guest accounts, payment cardholder name and potentially cardholder address are visible to the merchant (the travel agent) and this could be shared with the operator.

That was my concern. But no proof it was actually me on the train if I didn’t hand over my details and he had no body cam?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

That was my concern. But no proof it was actually me on the train if I didn’t hand over my details and he had no body cam?

They don't actually need to prove it was you to start a prosecution, yes they would need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt to secure the conviction but there's cases on here with people being convicted without their knowledge when someone has falsely given 3rd party details.

It is unlikely you will be prosecuted, but there is the potential for it to happen

 

[skyhigh]

That was my concern. But no proof it was actually me on the train if I didn’t hand over my details and he had no body cam?

It's possible they may download CCTV etc, so if they did contact you it would be unwise to lie and tell them it wasn't you travelling.

I think it's fairly unlikely you will hear anything further though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Appreciate the feedback! Fingers crossed it’s all ok.

Thanks!

I would not be too optimistic - of all the train companies in the UK from the evidence on this forum Chiltern are the one that takes the most robust stance on ticket rule infringements (lots of cases on here) and sometimes seem to be particularly unsympathetic to people who violate the rules.

You'll have to wait to see what happens but i would be working on some notes for writing up your excuse for not having a ticket when you boarded the train in the hope they will by sympathetic. If they do write to you I suspect you'll be on a pathway to court unless you can persuade them to settle out of court, which will come with a c£150 'admin fee'.

Head back here for help if they contact you about this.

 

[Hadders]

I'm surprised you were let through the barriers at Marylebone without a ticket. This sounds like very unusual behaviour. It is a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket to travel. While you could argue that you were given permission to board by a member of staff it's going to be very difficult to prove this.

If the ticket was scanned then Chiltern will be able to obtain details from Trainline, even though you checked out as a guest. Preseumably you had to input your email address, and postal address to check out as a guest.

If you refused to give details and/or became abusive then this could be problematic.

Should you receive an email or letter from Chiltern then come back here and post a redacted copy of the letter in this thread and forum members will be able to assist with how to reply.

 

[anon56789]

I'm surprised you were let through the barriers at Marylebone without a ticket. This sounds like very unusual behaviour. It is a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket to travel. While you could argue that you were given permission to board by a member of staff it's going to be very difficult to prove this.

If the ticket was scanned then Chiltern will be able to obtain details from Trainline, even though you checked out as a guest. Preseumably you had to input your email address, and postal address to check out as a guest.

If you refused to give details and/or became abusive then this could be problematic.

Should you receive an email or letter from Chiltern then come back here and post a redacted copy of the letter in this thread and forum members will be able to assist with how to reply.

He wasn’t clear on what he was threatening me with. All he said was he thought I was trying to skip a fare but I had a valid ticket for the journey. I wasn’t abusive, more frustrated with him not being clear and him demanding I show ID when I had none.

No address information is passed via ApplePay on a guest booking, only email address which is hidden from the retailer..

 

[Hadders]

I had a valid ticket for the journey.

You're required to be in possession of a valid ticket when you board the train. You weren't in possession of a valid ticket when you boarded.

No address information is passed via ApplePay on a guest booking, only email address which is hidden from the retailer.

I'm not an expert in this area, and other forum members will know more, but I'd be surprised if there isn't a way you can be traced.

 

[anon56789]

You're required to be in possession of a valid ticket when you board the train. You weren't in possession of a valid ticket when you boarded.


I'm not an expert in this area, and other forum members will know more, but I'd be surprised if there isn't a way you can be traced.

So what fine / accusation would I like be in for?

If I have to pay a fine for boarding illegally or having a valid ticket at the beginning then OK. But seeing as I wasn’t actually fare evading I’m at a bit of a loss

 

[roastyduck]

So what fine / accusation would I like be in for?

If I have to pay a fine for boarding illegally or having a valid ticket at the beginning then OK. But seeing as I wasn’t actually fare evading I’m at a bit of a loss

You seem to be confusing what you think you did with what you actually did.

Did you board a train without a ticket: yes
Did you come from station A where you purchased the ticket from: Who knows?
Do the inspectors believe you came from there: doubt it.
Did you commit a further offence by refusing details: yes

The point behind buying before you board is to scan the ticket on the gate to confirm that you have indeed come from station A, this is your undoing now sadly. You use this route repeatedly so you will see them again and you can expect them to check your tickets twice as hard and pull you up for your previous offence. Don't cut off the hand that feeds, especially the one that gets you to I presume work because they can ask you to depart the service to be dealt with.

Regardless of your ticket being correct or not, you refused details which is an offence, far worse than a simple ticketing issue, they asked for details because you purchased a ticket after departure and it wasn't scanned on a gate which screams fare evasion. All you had to do was explain politely, confirm the time of purchase to time of departure, they most likely don't know what time the train left the boarding station unless they got on there, and if they don't believe you then give details and appeal the penalty fare.

Now this is all based on if you're actualling being truthful to us about where you boarded and how long it took you to buy a ticket, people here aren't known for being completely honest which baffles me as nobody can give advice on a situation that's not fact.

One thing I did note is you knew how to go on the trainline app to buy a ticket why did you not do this before travelling? The common trend is people who know how to use trainline all switch to E tickets because it's far easier than paper tickets.

Now to answer your initial question, you didn't at the time satisfy that you weren't fare evading, so they have every right to claim you were, along with refusal of details they may just opt for court, this doesn't look good on you at all, if you can't prove you came through at station A and was let through then you're out of luck, adding refusal of details you're in the category of intent to avoid. The intent will get ya.

 

[SteveM70]

So what fine / accusation would I like be in for?

If I have to pay a fine for boarding illegally or having a valid ticket at the beginning then OK. But seeing as I wasn’t actually fare evading I’m at a bit of a loss

The railway's argument would likely be that you were attempting to evade your fare, and bought a ticket when you saw the ticket inspector working their way down the train. They may think that had the inspector not been checking tickets, you'd not have paid. From what you've said, I personally don't believe this is true, but you have to consider how it looks to them.

Did you board a train without a ticket: yes
Did you come from station A where you purchased the ticket from: Who knows?
Do the inspectors believe you came from there: doubt it.

Given the OP started their journey at Marylebone I think we can rule out any doubt about questions 2 and 3

 

[Hadders]

So what fine / accusation would I like be in for?

If I have to pay a fine for boarding illegally or having a valid ticket at the beginning then OK. But seeing as I wasn’t actually fare evading I’m at a bit of a loss

Railway Byelaw 18.1

Railway byelaws

www.gov.uk

in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

Chiltern could prosecute you but if you co-operate with them they will probably agree an out of court settlement.

 

[AdamWW]

The point behind buying before you board is to scan the ticket on the gate to confirm that you have indeed come from station A,

I don't think this is the reason that the law says that you must buy before you board, particularly given that the law has been around a lot longer than even magnetic stripe ticket barriers.

And indeed there are legitimate occasions where one might board a train without having a ticket scanned at the originating station, e.g. when split ticketing. And it would presumably be legal (if perhaps ill advised) to pass through the barriers with a ticket (e.g. season ticket) that isn't valid for your journey, so long as you do have a valid one and it was purchased before boarding.