Boundary Zone tickets & High Speed

[district]

I have tried searching for similar threads but to no avail. According to two Southeastern Highspeed onboard managers and a ticket office clerk, Boundary Zone tickets are not valid on Highspeed services.

A man held a Surbiton - London Z1-6 travelcard and a Boundary Zone 6 - Canterbury Stations ticket. He was made to buy an excess.

The NRCoC (s13) says:

(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket

.
I appreciate Southeastern High speed does not accept travelcards or Oyster PAYG, but a Boundary Zone ticket is surely neither of these things.

(d) The use of some trains may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

Am I just being stupid and have missed something here? Or is it asserting the fact that the Suburbiton - London Zones 1-6 travelcard would not be valid on its own? One of the OBMs said ''We've checked with TfL and they agree''.
I hope someone can shed some light on this matter.

 

[Harlesden]

I would have thought only point to point tickets are valid on HS1 - station (name) to station (name). The possession of a TravelCard should be ignored when using HS1 - buy a ticket from start to finish.
If the TravelCard itself isn't valid on HS1, then how could the ticket mentioned in the OP be acceptable?

 

[district]

My first thought was because of the travelcard issue, but I thought it was a bit odd and I was far from sure, hence why I posted.

 

[RJ]

I have tried searching for similar threads but to no avail. According to two Southeastern Highspeed onboard managers and a ticket office clerk, Boundary Zone tickets are not valid on Highspeed services.

A man held a Surbiton - London Z1-6 travelcard and a Boundary Zone 6 - Canterbury Stations ticket. He was made to buy an excess.

The NRCoC (s13) says:
.
I appreciate Southeastern High speed does not accept travelcards or Oyster PAYG, but a Boundary Zone ticket is surely neither of these things.



Am I just being stupid and have missed something here? Or is it asserting the fact that the Suburbiton - London Zones 1-6 travelcard would not be valid on its own? One of the OBMs said ''We've checked with TfL and they agree''.
I hope someone can shed some light on this matter.

Inboundary Travelcards are not valid on HS1 services. Surbition is in London.

An outboundary Travelcard that would not normally be valid on HS1 can be validated if it is used in conjunction with both a.) a BZ extension and b.) a supplement.

Of course, this assumes that the outboundary Travelcard in question wouldn't be valid at all at or beyond Ashford. Of course if it did, the BZ extension wouldn't be required. I'm sure Southeastern don't intend it to be this way, as there are no BZ fares to Ebbsfleet. However, the text on their website only refers to outboundary Travelcards with no further stipulations. Until the text is clarified, you should be able to get away with doing this for journeys using extension tickets to/from Ashford and beyond, so long as the entire journey is covered by the tickets held, which would include a flat rate supplement.

 

[district]

An outboundary Travelcard that would not normally be valid on HS1 can be validated if it is used in conjunction with both a.) a BZ extension and b.) a supplement.

Thank you very much for the explanation. I referred the man to this forum so hope he will see your answer. Thanks again.

 

[island]

Boundary zone tickets are valid on HS1 (if properly routed), but inboundary Travelcards are not.

This does suggest to me that a ticket from Ashford Intl to Boundary Zone 2 is valid on HS1 as long as you get off at Stratford, as it's routed ANY PERMITTED. Whether the OBM accepts it or not I do not know.

 

[MikeWh]

Boundary zone tickets are valid on HS1 (if properly routed), but inboundary Travelcards are not.

This does suggest to me that a ticket from Ashford Intl to Boundary Zone 2 is valid on HS1 as long as you get off at Stratford, as it's routed ANY PERMITTED. Whether the OBM accepts it or not I do not know.

That is the only scenario where a boundary zone ticket would be valid, as long as a "Plus HS1" routing exists in the fares database. If the travelcard includes any more than zones 1 and 2 then you would be using the travelcard on HS1 and that is not allowed as a premium hasn't been paid.

 

[RJ]

BZ tickets can only be used in conjunction with Travelcards, so I'd be inclined to suggest it would only be valid with an outboundary Travelcard and supplement.

 

[yorkie]

That is the only scenario where a boundary zone ticket would be valid, as long as a "Plus HS1" routing exists in the fares database. If the travelcard includes any more than zones 1 and 2 then you would be using the travelcard on HS1 and that is not allowed as a premium hasn't been paid.

Ashford to Boundary Zone 2 is routed Any Permitted, which would therefore be valid on HS1, between Stratford Intl and London (wherever in Zone 2 to Stratford would need to be done on alternative means not on HS1).

 

[RJ]

Yes, but the Travelcard partition would also have to be valid on HS1 in order for the combination to be valid anywhere on HS1.

Remember the BZ fare is an excess fare that can only be used in conjunction with a Travelcard.

 

[island]

Yes, but the Travelcard partition would also have to be valid on HS1 in order for the combination to be valid anywhere on HS1.

I don't agree. The NRCoC states that any restrictions as regards the route you may take will be shown on the ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A 'Boundary Zone' ticket is an extension (or excess if you prefer) of the travelcard held. If the Travelcard is not valid on HS1, the extension cannot be as they are effectively the same ticket.

 

[RJ]

Plus inboundary Travelcards are completely barred for use on HS1, so cannot be used in conjunction with a BZ ticket on HS1 anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't agree. The NRCoC states that any restrictions as regards the route you may take will be shown on the ticket.

But not necessarily under the "Route" section of the ticket. If it says validity is "As Advertised" then you have to ensure that it's valid for use.

 

[island]

If it's an SDS the validity section will say "On Date Shown".

 

[paul1609]

Plus inboundary Travelcards are completely barred for use on HS1, so cannot be used in conjunction with a BZ ticket on HS1 anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But not necessarily under the "Route" section of the ticket. If it says validity is "As Advertised" then you have to ensure that it's valid for use.

When approaching Ashford from the country end of the line. The announcement says that Boundary Zone tickets (amongst others) are not valid beyond Ashford and that you should change to mainline services here.

 

[island]

Announcements don't decide what's valid. The NRCoC and other published documents do.

 

[soil]

A 'Boundary Zone' ticket is an extension (or excess if you prefer) of the travelcard held. If the Travelcard is not valid on HS1, the extension cannot be as they are effectively the same ticket.

The point here is that if you travel say Waterloo non-stop to Woking, on a travelcard with a boundary extension, then BOTH tickets are required for the journey, since the BZ ticket obviously doesn't go as far as Woking.

However a BZ2 - Ashford Intl would cover the entire journey from Stratford Intl to Ashford Intl, so no travelcard is being used for the journey.

 

[maniacmartin]

There is a severe lack of clear public information from ATOC or TOCs on Boundary Zone ticket validity. I'd be interested to know where it's published that Boundary Zone tickets are only valid with the travelcard when travelling wholly outside the zones. BZ tickets don't say excess or supplement anywhere on them (as far as I remember). I don't consider BZ tickets to be excesses - they aren't mentioned in the NRCoC with other excesses, and unlike other excesses, have their own entries in the fares manual.

Also, if a hypothetical customer held a Z1-6 travelcard, could they use this to purchase a BZ2 - Ashford ticket (ie holding 2 tickets for zones 3 - 6), so does the BZ ticket have to be issued from the end of the travelcard zones only?

 

[cyclebytrain]

Just to add to the confusion, if you ask the SET website for a return between St Pancras and Stratford Regional (SRA) it offers a Z1-4 travelcard and suggests the route through Stratford International (SFA)...

 

[soil]

There is a severe lack of clear public information from ATOC or TOCs on Boundary Zone ticket validity. I'd be interested to know where it's published that Boundary Zone tickets are only valid with the travelcard when travelling wholly outside the zones. BZ tickets don't say excess or supplement anywhere on them (as far as I remember). I don't consider BZ tickets to be excesses - they aren't mentioned in the NRCoC with other excesses, and unlike other excesses, have their own entries in the fares manual.

Also, if a hypothetical customer held a Z1-6 travelcard, could they use this to purchase a BZ2 - Ashford ticket (ie holding 2 tickets for zones 3 - 6), so does the BZ ticket have to be issued from the end of the travelcard zones only?

If you have a BZ2 - Ashford ticket then it's valid from Stratford Intl. The fact you might also hold a travelcard for zones 3-6, or a bus pass, or a National Express loyalty card, doesn't seem relevant.

 

[yorkie]

A 'Boundary Zone' ticket is an extension (or excess if you prefer) of the travelcard held. If the Travelcard is not valid on HS1, the extension cannot be as they are effectively the same ticket.

But you are not using the in-boundary Travelcard part on HS1, and HS1 is merely being used to get from Stratford Group (which is on a permitted route) to Ashford Intl.

If the tickets held are: Z1-2 Travelcard plus BZ2-Ashford and your journey was from, let's say, Homerton to Ashford, then you are permitted to travel from the Zone 2 boundary onto a permitted route to Ashford. In this case permitted routes to Ashford would include going via Stratford Group. So a permitted route would be Homerton - Stratford Group - Ashford Intl.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, if a hypothetical customer held a Z1-6 travelcard, could they use this to purchase a BZ2 - Ashford ticket (ie holding 2 tickets for zones 3 - 6), so does the BZ ticket have to be issued from the end of the travelcard zones only?

I see no reason why a passenger cannot pay from the Zone 2 boundary, of course normally you would not want to pay again for Zones 3, 4, 5 and 6, but in this case, it would be necessary as otherwise the ticket would not be valid.

 

[34D]

I see no reason why a passenger cannot pay from the Zone 2 boundary, of course normally you would not want to pay again for Zones 3, 4, 5 and 6, but in this case, it would be necessary as otherwise the ticket would not be valid.

Indeed, a few years ago, BZ4-Brighton was cheaper than 5 or 6 (corrected now I believe) and clerks were quit happy to issue thus.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However a BZ2 - Ashford Intl would cover the entire journey from Stratford Intl to Ashford Intl, so no travelcard is being used for the journey.

But you are not using the in-boundary Travelcard part on HS1, and HS1 is merely being used to get from Stratford Group (which is on a permitted route) to Ashford Intl.

If the tickets held are: Z1-2 Travelcard plus BZ2-Ashford and your journey was from, let's say, Homerton to Ashford, then you are permitted to travel from the Zone 2 boundary onto a permitted route to Ashford. In this case permitted routes to Ashford would include going via Stratford Group. So a permitted route would be Homerton - Stratford Group - Ashford Intl....

We're not talking about two separate tickets here though, one is an extension of the other, the original (the Travelcard) is not valid, so the extension (the Boundary Zone fare) can't be. Next you will be trying to tell me that if I had a TOC specific ticket and I 'over-distance' excess it to a non specific fare I can use any train! (even those going by a different route!) I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work like that.

 

[soil]

You aren't using the travelcard though.

Let's say I hold an off-peak day travelcard, zones 1-6, and the time is 8am. I want travel from West Drayton, in zone 6, to Reading.

If I bought a Boundary Zone 5 - Reading Anytime Return, I would have a valid ticket for travel, even though my travelcard is offpeak.

Conversely, if I held a z1-6 travelcard valid anytime, I would not be able to buy an BZ6 - Reading Off-Peak Single for travel at 8am

Likewise, if I were to travel from say Banbury towards London, using an Anytime ticket to BZ6, and an off-peak Travelcard, I could take whatever train I liked as far as Denham or Iver, but I would not be allowed in the zones before 9:30am.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think the TOC-specific comparison is useful, and I'm not convinced there's enough published information for a passenger to determine whether BZ tickets are extensions or not

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You aren't using the travelcard though.

Let's say I hold an off-peak day travelcard, zones 1-6, and the time is 8am. I want travel from West Drayton, in zone 6, to Reading.

If I bought a Boundary Zone 5 - Reading Anytime Return, I would have a valid ticket for travel, even though my travelcard is offpeak....

The extension should always be from the outer zone held.

....Conversely, if I held a z1-6 travelcard valid anytime, I would not be able to buy an BZ6 - Reading Off-Peak Single for travel at 8am....

The extension would have a time restriction, this is not the issue.

....Likewise, if I were to travel from say Banbury towards London, using an Anytime ticket to BZ6, and an off-peak Travelcard, I could take whatever train I liked as far as Denham or Iver, but I would not be allowed in the zones before 9:30am.

Again you are talking about a time restriction, which is not the issue.

I don't think the TOC-specific comparison is useful, and I'm not convinced there's enough published information for a passenger to determine whether BZ tickets are extensions or not

In the public domain? I couldn't say, I haven't read it all, but in The Manual it is clearly stated as an extension (or excess) to the travelcard. This is why NRCoC Condition 19 does not apply to Boundary Zone tickets

 

[yorkie]

We're not talking about two separate tickets here though, one is an extension of the other, the original (the Travelcard) is not valid, so the extension (the Boundary Zone fare) can't be.

It can. For example I could say that Travelcards are not valid on FGW between Slough and Reading. Right? But a Boundary Zone X to Reading is valid, isn't it?

The simple fact is that the Boundary Zone 2 to Ashford ticket is valid from the boundary of Zone 2, and then from whichever is the relevant station to Ashford. Admittedly it is only valid if a Travelcard is held, but the Travelcard itself does not have to have validity on the section of track for which you are using the extension (after all that is why you are buying an extension).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When were inboundary Travelcards banned on FGW services? I must have missed that retail brief.

 

[soil]

If you buy an FCC-only Gatwick - London one-day travelcard, there's nothing stopping you taking FCC to East Croydon and then taking Southern from there to Victoria.

In effect you have:

Gatwick-Boundary Zone 6 (First Capital Connect Only)
Travelcard Zone 1 - 6

Separate restrictions apply inside and outside of London.

Here there's the opposite scenario:

Travelcard Zone 1-x (Not High Speed)
Boundary Zone 2 - Ashford Intl (Any Permitted)

There's nothing to prevent a Boundary Zone 2 - Ashford International ticket being routed Not High Speed. But it isn't. It's unrestricted.

The two parts of the same ticket have different restrictions.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are Inboundary Travelcards valid on FCC services? or Southern services? I think we can safely say that those examples are not the same thing.