-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
BR Chromatic Blue - query
- Thread starter Peter C
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
Oh OK - so the paint just went over the dirt? Interesting. Though, given the state of some engines (and BR in general) in photos from the era I've seen, not surprising!
-Peter
not just locos, ships as well
Its been documented elsewhere that when the Manx Viking was put into the JV with the Isle of Man Steampacket, they just painted the black over the blue.........no undercoat, they didn't even bother to wash the dirt off or prime the rust spots. The Tynwald (aka Antrim Princess) always looked like it had been treated the same way
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
and a key point is none of them look like the greenish tinged blue that I remember.........but I have to temper that by saying my two eyes see colours slightly differently anywayThose photos do show how the same colour can look completely different depending on all sorts of things. Thanks for posting them.
-Peter
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
Oh OK - so the paint just went over the dirt? Interesting. Though, given the state of some engines (and BR in general) in photos from the era I've seen, not surprising!
-Peter
go back to post #9
that picture of the 27 with the paint plastered over the top of rust and filler is pretty typical of how locos were treated when painted at their sheds, especially later in their lives. Locos painted at works would be usually stripped back to the metal and look much tidier.
Also the greenish tinge in that photo is much how I remember the colour: modern electronics are far better at rendering colour correctly than wet film
Alanko
Member
Flickr is useful as there are thousands of photos of the BR Blue era on there. It gets interesting when two people upload photos of the same event:
You can't trust scanned photo negatives or vintage colour photography!
You can't trust scanned photo negatives or vintage colour photography!
That’s a very interesting contrast isn’t it? To my eyes the first photo looks more natural, but only if I don’t stare at the second one for too long!Flickr is useful as there are thousands of photos of the BR Blue era on there. It gets interesting when two people upload photos of the same event:
You can't trust scanned photo negatives or vintage colour photography!
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
second one is clearly "wrong" - even the brickwork is off colour
doesn't make the first one "right" though
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,806
While some people are in short sleeve shirts, one lad can't bear to part with his anorak! If you look at the dayglow red of the lining, plus on that young lad's cap, it is clear that the colours are all over the place in the second photo.Flickr is useful as there are thousands of photos of the BR Blue era on there. It gets interesting when two people upload photos of the same event:
You can't trust scanned photo negatives or vintage colour photography!
You can see another railway's colour consistency here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1-3-of-hokuriku-shinkansen-trains-submerged.193495/
Blue is the colour, too!
Blue is the colour, too!
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
The second one has clearly suffered from age and has a slight light blue colour cast over everything. I have seen similar happen with some of my older pictures.
Several points.
Firstly, in those times it was very common for users of better cameras to have Lens Filters, of which there was a huge range, entirely to adjust the way colour was represented on the film.
Then, different films rendered colours different ways. The best was always Kodachrome, which had a patented process nobody else could use, and which you had to send away to a Kodak lab for processing, the local shop couldn't do it. Among other things, this always rendered blue sky/white clouds far more strikingly than other films. In the USA "Trains" magazine even nicknamed such photos "Kodachrome skies". Kodak later introduced Kodacolor, cheaper and the local lab could do it. Results notably different. I bet the 08 picture above with blue sky/fluffy clouds behind was taken on Kodachrome.
Blue was always the "difficult" colour. You only have to look at all those nice summer day photos, including above, to find that the blue sky has rendered a milky white. In fact one of the key decision points behind the 1964 BR blue livery was that ICI had finally developed a blue paint which was more colour stable than what had gone before, and thus it seemed "trendy" for the consultants to recommend it as something which broke with the reds and greens used previously. But it seems the new pigment was not all it was cracked up to be.
Paint is of course dependent on the previous colour not showing through, otherwise undercoats and multiple coats would not be necessary. Most locomotives were green previously, and dependent on what thickness was used, and in those days there was still mostly imprecise brush painting, the final result would differ. Small differences in the amount of thinners etc used would also impact the colour precision.
Firstly, in those times it was very common for users of better cameras to have Lens Filters, of which there was a huge range, entirely to adjust the way colour was represented on the film.
Then, different films rendered colours different ways. The best was always Kodachrome, which had a patented process nobody else could use, and which you had to send away to a Kodak lab for processing, the local shop couldn't do it. Among other things, this always rendered blue sky/white clouds far more strikingly than other films. In the USA "Trains" magazine even nicknamed such photos "Kodachrome skies". Kodak later introduced Kodacolor, cheaper and the local lab could do it. Results notably different. I bet the 08 picture above with blue sky/fluffy clouds behind was taken on Kodachrome.
Blue was always the "difficult" colour. You only have to look at all those nice summer day photos, including above, to find that the blue sky has rendered a milky white. In fact one of the key decision points behind the 1964 BR blue livery was that ICI had finally developed a blue paint which was more colour stable than what had gone before, and thus it seemed "trendy" for the consultants to recommend it as something which broke with the reds and greens used previously. But it seems the new pigment was not all it was cracked up to be.
Paint is of course dependent on the previous colour not showing through, otherwise undercoats and multiple coats would not be necessary. Most locomotives were green previously, and dependent on what thickness was used, and in those days there was still mostly imprecise brush painting, the final result would differ. Small differences in the amount of thinners etc used would also impact the colour precision.
Hi Peter,You are very welcome for the info on here.The photo isn't showing up for me - I'll try using the code bit from your post in my post here and see if that works:
EDIT: Turns out it doesn't.Could you re-upload it maybe please?
Oh cool - thanks for the interesting information. Everything we can find out about this topic is important in getting an understanding of what was happening with the colours!
-Peter
It was a permissions settings issue, Ive changed it and hopefully the image should be visible now.
This thread just gets better and better with the amount of technical information being shared / discussed. Thanks all!
Oh excellent.
You're welcome regarding the thread - it does make for interesting reading!
-Peter
Alanko
Member
I was at the Bo'ness Diesel Gala Day, and was reminded of this thread!
Two 26s, two shades of blue! The paint on the background machine looked like it had a yellowy bloom to it. I've seen similar on aged single stage car paintwork. At a guess a bit of careful buffing and polishing with an abrasive compound would bring it back from the dead! Tom Clift in the foreground is a bolder shade of blue with less of the same bloom apparent, though check the cab roof.
The paintwork on 27001 looks the freshest, albeit quite clearly applied with a brush over various layers of older paint.
For reference, there was a beautiful O gauge layout setup in one of the grounded coaches outside. I saw both a Deltic and 20 on this layout, and both were in very dark shades of Rail Blue. As I've noted before, the modelers are angling for a darker shade of blue with no yellow content to it at all. For once I think the blues in my photos here are pretty close to what I saw with the naked eye.
Sometimes the colour can go off-piste in real life as well....
Two 26s, two shades of blue! The paint on the background machine looked like it had a yellowy bloom to it. I've seen similar on aged single stage car paintwork. At a guess a bit of careful buffing and polishing with an abrasive compound would bring it back from the dead! Tom Clift in the foreground is a bolder shade of blue with less of the same bloom apparent, though check the cab roof.
The paintwork on 27001 looks the freshest, albeit quite clearly applied with a brush over various layers of older paint.
For reference, there was a beautiful O gauge layout setup in one of the grounded coaches outside. I saw both a Deltic and 20 on this layout, and both were in very dark shades of Rail Blue. As I've noted before, the modelers are angling for a darker shade of blue with no yellow content to it at all. For once I think the blues in my photos here are pretty close to what I saw with the naked eye.
Sometimes the colour can go off-piste in real life as well....
Inversnecky
Member
Can anyone give some info on the blue used by BR back in the day?
I always understood it was one colour - are any variations you see merely the result of fading over time (did that happen much?), issues of photographic colour reproduction, or were there some subtle colour variations in real life as a result of different paint sourcing?
I always understood it was one colour - are any variations you see merely the result of fading over time (did that happen much?), issues of photographic colour reproduction, or were there some subtle colour variations in real life as a result of different paint sourcing?
Gloster
Established Member
It is probably one or more of the above, plus any other reasonable explanation you can think of. Variations in mixing that got through without being noticed. Different undercoats. Rush or ‘Friday afternoon’ jobs. Any of these could have happened and so probably did.
D6130
Established Member
As has been mentioned in another thread, quite a few of the class 76 and 77 1,500 V dc "Woodhead" electric locos were painted blue directly on top of their previous green paintwork - probably at Reddish Depot - which always seemed to give them a greenish tinge in bright sunlight - as well as preserving their British Railways "lion and wheel" bodyside totems.
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
I suggest you read this thread
"Class 42 blue livery - query" or "BR Chromatic Blue"
Hello all, Upon looking at the Videoscene webpage for the SVR Diesels 30 Years DVD, I found that the following image of a Class 42 "Warship" was on the cover. Apologies for the poor quality. Is it just me, or is this a slightly lighter version of the BR blue livery? I was just wondering. If...
www.railforums.co.uk
I was just going to suggest this thread. A very interesting conversation about an interesting topic!
-Peter
The very best reference I’ve come across is David Lawrence’s very excellent book ‘British Rail Designed 1948-97’. This includes a comprehensive glossary of colours. The standard BR rail blue from 1965 was BS381C 114 however it also lists variations for locomotives: experimental blues of 1963-65 as BS381C 103, BS381 113 and LMR ac locomotives in 1963 as BS381 107 or BS381 175
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
No paint work would survive repeated exposure to "Exmover" - and dare I say brake block contamination. Especially when carriage washing plants failed to rinse off.
Inversnecky
Member
Thank you, will read that with interest. So many interesting and still relevant threads closed for further replies....
Cheers, it's been in my Amazon save for later list for a while, time to move it back to the basket on that recommendation.
Last edited:
You can give one of us a shout if you’d like something reopened and we will look at it.
If it’s really old it’s sometimes better just to put a link in for it though (I know that linked one isn’t very old but it’s probably just past the time limit for older threads).
Inversnecky
Member
Cheers.
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
One point that needs repeating, if anyone starts telling you tales of the mythical "Chromatic Blue", treat it with a pinch of salt.
It was all Monastral Blue
Inversnecky
Member
Have found a few interesting references from the Manual:
Rail Blue - BS381C no.114
Rail Grey - BS381C no.627
Some other links:
railrevisited.blogspot.com
thebeautyoftransport.com
Wonder where the older solid dark blue on some MUs fitted in - was that the same BR Rail blue? It looked darker, but that might just have been an illusion due to the lack of grey.
Rail Blue - BS381C no.114
Rail Grey - BS381C no.627
Some other links:
History: The Life & Times of Rail Blue
"So, what was the first Rail Blue train? That’s a question no one seems to want to answer. But the candidate spotlight fell on brand new loc...
railrevisited.blogspot.com
The Decline and Fall of the Rail Blue Empire (British Railways’ corporate identity 1964-1986, part 2)
British Rail’s rail blue corporate identity was one of the most successful applied to any British transport company in the 20th Century, but by the late 1980s it had been all but wiped out. The sto…
thebeautyoftransport.com
Wonder where the older solid dark blue on some MUs fitted in - was that the same BR Rail blue? It looked darker, but that might just have been an illusion due to the lack of grey.
Attachments
pdeaves
Established Member
Yes, BR blue. Blue and grey looked really drab (in my opinion!) but the grey made a lot of difference in brightening up the even worse blue underneath.
Helvellyn
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,237
I think some of this is down to the livery design. The HST variant was striking and iconic, helped by the unique treatment of the power cars. Likewise, large logo can be seen as a variant of plain BR blue and likewise had an impactful look whilst working with blue/grey rolling stock.
The exact shades and finishes also have an impact. As the above extract from the Design Manual shows the BR house colours were blue, grey and red. In 1984 British Airways updated its house colours from blue, white and red to blue, grey and red. But the exact shades used and way it was applied produced what many regard as one of the most iconic airline liveries ever.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/london.../british-airways-100-years-landor-livery/amp/
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,383
another old thread worth reading
www.railforums.co.uk
WESTERN CLASS 52 IN CHROMATIC BLUE
Another picture taken by my late father, this time of Western Class 52 D1030 resplendent in its new livery of chromatic rail blue with small yellow panels. The location is Taplow on the GW main line, and the date 17th September 1966, when the Great Western Society held a fundraising open day at...
www.railforums.co.uk
another old thread worth reading
WESTERN CLASS 52 IN CHROMATIC BLUE
Another picture taken by my late father, this time of Western Class 52 D1030 resplendent in its new livery of chromatic rail blue with small yellow panels. The location is Taplow on the GW main line, and the date 17th September 1966, when the Great Western Society held a fundraising open day at...
We’ve certainly done this subject haven’t we.
- Status