BR Class 180 - Adelantes

[Driver068]

I wanted to post a thread in regards to the above. As far as i am aware Grand Central and EMR and the only TOCs that currently use this rolling stock after Hull Trains introduced their 800s varient.
I understand Grand Central are experiencing alot of problems with the Adelantes and i am assuming at both Depots have these dificulties and its not just depot specific. Is it parts /repairs due to covid or general wear and tear ect. So i am curious what are exactly are the issues, how come are they reacurring (If thats the case) and what are GC doing to correct this as many services have been delayed or cancelled.
Is there a possibility new rolling stock can be obtained or once a supply issue is resolved (If any) then that will resolve 99% of issues. GC seem to do well currenlty financially so whats lacking lol ??

I understand 1 or 2 180s from GC are permanently knackered?

If any one has any further information or can highlight this post in more detail then that would be appreciated. I dont live in the EMR area so i can not comment on their Rolling stock of 180s but it would be interesting to see once their 800s varient comes in then will GC get some/all of there stock for either part or extra/spare trains ect.

Alot there to digest so apologies in advance.

Many thanks

 

[DanNCL]

180s have been chronically unreliable from new. They’re one of those designs that have been bad from the start and never will be anything resembling reliable.

I suspect GC might be forced to get new rolling stock that’s bi-mode in the coming years, as they’re the last TOC to send diesel trains into Kings Cross.

 

[Pete_uk]

I used them in the Great Western days.
Nice seats, nice and spacious and good ride if the engine under you was out.

The carriages would make great LHCS.

 

[Snow1964]

The Cummins Diesel engine was generally fine (although could argue a slightly lower rating would have helped)

The reliability problems are mainly with transmissions, it was a Voith hydraulic design with retarder (which from memory are now isolated to reduce the parts that were prone to break down). I don’t think it is an bad transmission, just it doesn’t like being shaken to bits mounted alongside a vibrating diesel or connected by less than flexible driveshafts.

But the overall design was a bit of a bodge, based on the Coradia family, but incorporating various changes to suit UK loading gauge and try and fit parts used elsewhere in UK. In a way instead of getting best of everything, sort of ended up with whatever was available at the time.

 

[ainsworth74]

180s have been chronically unreliable from new. They’re one of those designs that have been bad from the start and never will be anything resembling reliable.

I'm sure I remember seeing a training video on fault fixing from the early 00s when they were introduced where one of the solutions for a fault was "...go to cupboard [such and such], flip this switch off and then on again, this should clear fault but we're not sure at the moment why."

 

[Hairy Bear]

Rumours abound that we're stopping using ours at Emr in May due to there high maintenance cost. ....Make of that what you will.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Rumours abound that we're stopping using ours at Emr in May due to there high maintenance cost. ....Make of that what you will.

That would contradict Modern Railways’ statement that they’re keeping them semi-permanently, but having said that I usually take railway magazines’ content with a pinch of salt

 

[Domh245]

That would contradict Modern Railways’ statement that they’re keeping them semi-permanently, but having said that I usually take railway magazines’ content with a pinch of salt

How long ago was that statement though? There seems to a rolling stock cull at the moment with a lot of decisions only just filtering through, and of all the "peak-capacity" providing microfleets the EMR 180s have got to be prime candidates for chopping

 

[jackot]

Rumours abound that we're stopping using ours at Emr in May due to there high maintenance cost. ....Make of that what you will.

High maintenance costs don't surprise me one bit considering we are talking about the Adelantes. With expensive 810s on order EMR have likely had to present a way to cut costs to the DfT like other TOCs, and if true this might be the solution they have come up with.

 

[43096]

That would contradict Modern Railways’ statement that they’re keeping them semi-permanently, but having said that I usually take railway magazines’ content with a pinch of salt

I'd take Modern Railways' content over unreliable internet wibble any day.

Since MR printed what it did, there has been the Chancellor's autumn statement and DfT requests for substantial cuts in the 2023 TOC business plans (this is what triggered the GWR HST rundown). Getting rid of the 180s is an obvious target for EMR.

 

[_toommm_]

I'm sure I remember seeing a training video on fault fixing from the early 00s when they were introduced where one of the solutions for a fault was "...go to cupboard [such and such], flip this switch off and then on again, this should clear fault but we're not sure at the moment why."

The 3901 cupboard here's the video on fault finding on the 180s:

 

[warwickshire]

I'm sure I remember seeing a training video on fault fixing from the early 00s when they were introduced where one of the solutions for a fault was "...go to cupboard [such and such], flip this switch off and then on again, this should clear fault but we're not sure at the moment why."

With Paul Tyreman. Then again after that process you still will be going absolutely nowhere.

 

[Mikey C]

High maintenance costs don't surprise me one bit considering we are talking about the Adelantes. With expensive 810s on order EMR have likely had to present a way to cut costs to the DfT like other TOCs, and if true this might be the solution they have come up with.

And the 180s weren't in the original plan anyway, its keeping them which is the change...

A shame the 175s and 180s were so problematic, as both were decent trains as a passenger. If they and the Junipers had been more reliable, maybe Washwood Heath might have survived, as the Pendolinos and 95/96 tube stock were fine.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That would contradict Modern Railways’ statement that they’re keeping them semi-permanently, but having said that I usually take railway magazines’ content with a pinch of salt

The world is moving on in terms of railways and fleets very quickly to achieve the desired outputs of the 2023/2024 Annual Business Plans, what is written relative to this and fleet deployments in a Railway Magazine is now largely out of date by the time it is printed, things are moving that quickly as the railway stabilises at around 80% of pre covid numbers and 70% of pre covid revenue on average.

 

[tbtc]

A shame the 175s and 180s were so problematic, as both were decent trains as a passenger. If they and the Junipers had been more reliable, maybe Washwood Heath might have survived, as the Pendolinos and 95/96 tube stock were fine.

It’s one of the “what if” moments that I keep wondering about. I think I still have the Arriva prospectus for their TPE bid in about 2003, back when they proposed four coach 180s across the Pennines

This was around the same time that National Express (MM) were looking at 170 replacement and opted for 222s… Maybe if the 180 production lines were open then we’d have seen orders for them on both Midland Mainline and TPE - one big fleet of a couple of hundred carriages being much better than smaller sheets of 180/185/222

But then First have been pretty terrible at ordering trains - has anyone been so impressed with something that First procured that they’ve also ordered it? The 175s/ 180s/ 185s/ 334s don’t seem to have inspired other TOCs to follow suit - we’d have been a lot better off of First had just ordered standard stock like Turbostars as other franchises did

 

[fgwrich]

But then First have been pretty terrible at ordering trains - has anyone been so impressed with something that First procured that they’ve also ordered it? The 175s/ 180s/ 185s/ 334s don’t seem to have inspired other TOCs to follow suit - we’d have been a lot better off of First had just ordered standard stock like Turbostars as other franchises did

The Desiro's. Wasn't First Great Eastern the first TOC to place an order for the Desiro EMU, which lead to the follow on order's from Stagecoach (of course led by Alsthom's self inflected demise). Siemens might have had more luck with the 185 had they not, somewhat unfortunately, been so heavy. One did go to Scotland / Stirling for a demonstration event involving Scottish Gov officials.

The Cummins Diesel engine was generally fine (although could argue a slightly lower rating would have helped)

The reliability problems are mainly with transmissions, it was a Voith hydraulic design with retarder (which from memory are now isolated to reduce the parts that were prone to break down). I don’t think it is an bad transmission, just it doesn’t like being shaken to bits mounted alongside a vibrating diesel or connected by less than flexible driveshafts.

But the overall design was a bit of a bodge, based on the Coradia family, but incorporating various changes to suit UK loading gauge and try and fit parts used elsewhere in UK. In a way instead of getting best of everything, sort of ended up with whatever was available at the time.

I think there was also an issue regarding the positioning of the radiators, which in such a confined space, couldn't work as effectively as they should do. It's a shame the sole bar and below components were so c"ap because, from a passenger perceptive, they are fantastic units which knock the Bombardier fleets out of the park*.


*particularly with their steel bodies and tilting profile!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But then First have been pretty terrible at ordering trains - has anyone been so impressed with something that First procured that they’ve also ordered it? The 175s/ 180s/ 185s/ 334s don’t seem to have inspired other TOCs to follow suit - we’d have been a lot better off of First had just ordered standard stock like Turbostars as other franchises did

First ordered the first of the Siemens Desiros (360s), they have proved to be very successful and paved the way for the large Stagecoach order of Desiros.

 

[LowLevel]

That would contradict Modern Railways’ statement that they’re keeping them semi-permanently, but having said that I usually take railway magazines’ content with a pinch of salt

That was the position, but may have changed with the impending budget cuts. There's certainly rumours abound. Whilst the permanent loss of Intercity capacity will be a pain (not to mention the summer Skegness strengthening!) there would be benefits in freeing up space on the maintenance depots which is already well beyond tight with the 158 retention.

 

[popeter45]

the 180's are also a big what if for GWR as at the time i belive one option being looked at was LHCS with 67's, as such would have prob survived to now i wonder how that would have affected the electrification/IEP program, would we have seen electric locomotives instead of the 800's?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That was the position, but may have changed with the impending budget cuts. There's certainly rumours abound. Whilst the permanent loss of Intercity capacity will be a pain (not to mention the summer Skegness strengthening!) there would be benefits in freeing up space on the maintenance depots which is already well beyond tight with the 158 retention.

There’s an expectation that service changes will be spread across May and the December changes (with possibly some September changes) depending on complexity of the change. EMR might be able to put off the 180s going until after the summer which would delay the Skegness problem until 2024.

 

[BJames]

As much as I find these comfortable trains, I won't mourn the loss of them as an EMR microfleet. Was already not too keen on the idea of retaining a microfleet of older stock amongst the 810s. Relatively safe bet then I assume that 180110 will just end up never getting its fifth carriage back (and that we're stuck with the 4 car unit until its gone)?

 

[Chester1]

If EMR are forced to give up their 180s then might Grand Central and ROSCO agree a swap of units so that they have the most reliable 10? I know that will still be an unreliable fleet but it is still an improvement.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If EMR are forced to give up their 180s then might Grand Central and ROSCO agree a swap of units so that they have the most reliable 10? I know that will still be an unreliable fleet but it is still an improvement.

Open Access seems to be flourishing at the moment so GC might even consider leasing extra sets if they become available.

 

[Chester1]

Open Access seems to be flourishing at the moment so GC might even consider leasing extra sets if they become available.

By the sounds of it they would need to be offered them almost for free for it to be worth their while. The are probably paying off covid debts and not keen to take risks. In the long run an order of bi modes would be the obvious choice.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But then First have been pretty terrible at ordering trains - has anyone been so impressed with something that First procured that they’ve also ordered it? The 175s/ 180s/ 185s/ 334s don’t seem to have inspired other TOCs to follow suit - we’d have been a lot better off of First had just ordered standard stock like Turbostars as other franchises did

First didn’t spec or order the 175/180/334 units - they were already on the way or had arrived before they took on the respective franchises.

I doubt if anybody would want any extra 180 units now, unless GC (as suggested above) can get them for free! They are the class 50 of the DMU world - great when they go but absolute so and so’s when they don’t. Like the class 50 locos, they have several “interesting” design features and take a lot of looking after.

 

[DelW]

First didn’t spec or order the 175/180/334 units - they were already on the way or had arrived before they took on the respective franchises.

The fates of the 175s and 180s seem to have diverged over their lifetimes. Both were built at Washwood Heath, both were part of the Coradia range, and both were at best temperamental at introduction. However the 175s seem to have benefitted from being based at one depot (I think) throughout, and have become reliable and generally well liked trains. Meanwhile 180s have bounced around between operators and depots, never achieving reliability anywhere, and most operators seem to be keen to move them on once they've tried them.

 

[norbitonflyer]

First ordered the first of the Siemens Desiros (360s), they have proved to be very successful and paved the way for the large Stagecoach order of Desiros.

Are you sure about that? SWT (Stagecoach) ordered its 450s in April 2001, after its own less-than-successful procurement of 458s (the DC version of the 334) . Both the 360s and the 450s entered service in 2003 = I recall tghe 450s were delayed because a power upgrade was needed (lack of co-ordination between SWT, Siemens and Railtrack)

First didn’t spec or order the 175/180/334 units - they were already on the way or had arrived before they took on the respective franchises.

Not so. First Group took over the GW and NW franchises in Feb 1996 and March 1997 respectively. The 175s were ordered in July 1997 and the 180s in October 1997

 

[shaun]

And the 180s weren't in the original plan anyway, its keeping them which is the change...

A shame the 175s and 180s were so problematic, as both were decent trains as a passenger. If they and the Junipers had been more reliable, maybe Washwood Heath might have survived, as the Pendolinos and 95/96 tube stock were fine.

 

[WAB]

The 180s' reliability is a meme at this point.

The EMR examples are falling apart internally, a contrast which will only be heightened when the 810s start their diagrams. Grand Central might take them for just above scrap value, to cover for their own fleet's unreliability. But they are on borrowed time nonetheless. They were nice once, but are not really suitable these days, particularly on the ECML where they run under the wires for a significant distance.

 

[robert thomas]

I used them in the Great Western days.
Nice seats, nice and spacious and good ride if the engine under you was out.

The carriages would make great LHCS.

Someyearsago I was travelling round Britain on an all line rover for two weeks and on several occasions bumped into a German DB employee who although on holiday was expected to report back to his employers on the merits of the rolling stock he encountered. His verdict was that the most comfortable were the BR mk1 on the Mallaig steam services and the 180s