Bradford Forster Square 4th Platform Funding Announced: what improvements would you like to see made?

[Andyh82]

Didn’t the 2016 ECML track access application include a 2 hourly service to Bradford FS anyway, so was that always going to be infrastructure dependent, because I don’t recall any mention of new platforms back then. Has the local timetable changed in the intervening years?

Yes it’s got less frequent!

There is generally 6 Northern trains per hour out of Bradford FS, at off peak times in the middle of the day this has now been reduced to 4

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn’t the 2016 ECML track access application include a 2 hourly service to Bradford FS anyway, so was that always going to be infrastructure dependent, because I don’t recall any mention of new platforms back then. Has the local timetable changed in the intervening years?

By the sounds of it, diagrams for local services have changed. Around ten years ago, the timetable between the peaks only needed the long pair of platforms and P3 had a 321/322 stabled in it all day. There's mention above of double-stacking, something which never used to happen... to the extent that I'm pleasantly surprised that the signalling allows it!

 

[Bantamzen]

By the sounds of it, diagrams for local services have changed. Around ten years ago, the timetable between the peaks only needed the long pair of platforms and P3 had a 321/322 stabled in it all day. There's mention above of double-stacking, something which never used to happen... to the extent that I'm pleasantly surprised that the signalling allows it!

The signalling allows it, but it ends up meaning that us punters end up often trudging up the platforms past a couple of stabled units to get to our services parked at the far end. Its not great to be honest. So an extra platform would allow stabling and hopefully less services being closer to Hamm Strasse than Forster Square. Who knows maybe the possible investment might even convince Northern to give the Skipton and Ilkley routes our 2tph off-peak services back. (I can dream).

However wouldn't it be refreshing if a project like this relatively straightforward one were announced, started, completed and brought on-line in around 12 months? It might demonstrate that things can happen in the rail industry at anything other than snail's pace. That's not to say I actually think this will happen of course, because I honestly don't think it will.

 

[yorksrob]

It's almost as if the 90's demolition of the original station and replacement with a tiny stub on the far corner of the site was not conducive to any future railway expansion needs, who'd have thought.

That was my initial thought as well.

There's an episode of Minder with either Terry or Ray running around the lifted old station with the current one in the background.

 

[thejuggler]

Didn’t the 2016 ECML track access application include a 2 hourly service to Bradford FS anyway, so was that always going to be infrastructure dependent, because I don’t recall any mention of new platforms back then. Has the local timetable changed in the intervening years?

Looking back on local paper website it appears the proposed 2017 FS station improvement plan was intended to complement the introduction of the 2 hourly KGX service, but the services never increased (not sure why. Track access changes? demise of Virgin? Azuma stock issues?) and the station works never happened. No works to the Network Rail infrastructure were envisaged.

It now appears this has now switched, lots of Network Rail works but no station improvements.

 

[RailWonderer]

This was on Sky news last night, and the guy they had on was talking about how the railways are incapable of delivering anything to time and to budget like the GWML electrification and HS2. He also said the benefits were not a substitute for the foregone HS2 extension and piecemeal electrification per year was needed that would allow the NR to get more efficient at doing it.

I digress but small projects like these need to work out well for NR. After all this has only been greenlit as part of the funds released from HS2 for the investment for the North plan.

 

[Bantamzen]

This was on Sky news last night, and the guy they had on was talking about how the railways are incapable of delivering anything to time and to budget like the GWML electrification and HS2. He also said the benefits were not a substitute for the foregone HS2 extension and piecemeal electrification per year was needed that would allow the NR to get more efficient at doing it.

I digress but small projects like these need to work out well for NR. After all this has only been greenlit as part of the funds released from HS2 for the investment for the North plan.

I certainly agree with this last bit, NR needs to demonstrate it can not only deliver on time, and occasionally at fairly short notice, but on budget. Little side projects like this might just help them identify where they can improve. I just hope my deeply engrained cynicism isn't right in thinking this will simply fall back onto the shelf as "too hard" due to the timescales expected.

 

[stephen rp]

It seems pretty unrealistic that this will all be done during the current calendar year

Normally it takes years to do the pre planning work and a few years to do the actual work.

It's timing of announcements before the general election that counts.

 

[nwales58]

It's timing of announcements before the general election that counts.

Announcement: 'we'll build the Shipley bypass' made by the Prime Minister, no less, last October. Any progress so far?

I'm ignoring any announcements from DfT for the next 12 months. Ministers are living in a parallel universe where everything can be announced because nothing needs to be delivered.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Just at Forster Square now and you’ve got two units locked out of use in platforms one and one on platform three. That means no LNER can terminate and everything either uses platform two or as myself and others have said - you stack the departures on top of the locked out units meaning a two minute walk down to the far end of the platform which has no seating and more importantly no cover from the elements.

To be honest the whole station should be gutted and started over again. It has never had the facilities befitting a top 10 UK City train station.

 

[Bantamzen]

Announcement: 'we'll build the Shipley bypass' made by the Prime Minister, no less, last October. Any progress so far?

I'm ignoring any announcements from DfT for the next 12 months. Ministers are living in a parallel universe where everything can be announced because nothing needs to be delivered.

To be fair a Shipley bypass is a way bigger project that a fourth platform at Forster Square.

Just at Forster Square now and you’ve got two units locked out of use in platforms one and one on platform three. That means no LNER can terminate and everything either uses platform two or as myself and others have said - you stack the departures on top of the locked out units meaning a two minute walk down to the far end of the platform which has no seating and more importantly no cover from the elements.

To be honest the whole station should be gutted and started over again. It has never had the facilities befitting a top 10 UK City train station.

I'd totally agree it needs a full rework. For a start the whole ticket office area needs enclosing and expanding to make a more customer friendly space, preferably with more retail units. Then (and these will be more for the council to sort) the approach from Manor Road needs work, mainly the arches which currently house a growing community of homeless people, as well as improving the route behind the Midland Hotel. This was probably a missed opportunity, it could have led to a crossing directly to an entrance to The Broadway, but once again no joined up thinking.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes it’s got less frequent!

There is generally 6 Northern trains per hour out of Bradford FS, at off peak times in the middle of the day this has now been reduced to 4

How on Earth is 3 platforms not sufficient for 4, or even 6, trains an hour? With 6 trains an hour, that's an average of 2tph per platform, and on the whole these are local trains. Plenty of other stations cope more terminating trains per hour per platform than that. (Abbey Wood Elizabeth line handles up to 12tph, all terminating, in the peaks with just two platforms plus a stabling siding)

The signalling allows it, but it ends up meaning that us punters end up often trudging up the platforms past a couple of stabled units to get to our services parked at the far end. Its not great to be honest. So an extra platform would allow stabling and hopefully less services being closer to Hamm Strasse than Forster Square.

Are trains being stabled for long periods at Forster Square? If so, why? That seems an inefficient use of stock if these are trains that could've been running a service somewhere. And if they are being stabled for long periods (as opposed to simply arriving then waiting 15 minutes before forming the returning service), why does that have to be at a station?

 

[JR108]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bradford-forster-square-4th-platform-funding-announced.261995

The new platform will be situated to the east of the existing station behind the retail park. There is some (possibly reserved?) land but, as others have mentioned, some car parking spaces will need to be purchased. I wonder if the new platform will be 'Platform 0' or they will renumber the whole layout 1 to 4? The new platform will help separate out, local from Intercity services.

However, it will do nothing to alleviate Bradford Forster Square's (BDQ) remoteness and lack of connectivity.

BDQ is a mess. Back in the 1990s the local council were so desperate for a new shopping complex they were willing to sell off the land the original station sat upon for a development. This only happened later with the Broadway Centre being built on a different site and the old BDQ site being left empty, what then happened was the Tax Office (Centenary Court). Passengers now face the backside of this building and have a circuitous walk around its peripheries in order to access the city centre.

 

[skyhigh]

Just at Forster Square now and you’ve got two units locked out of use in platforms one and one on platform three. That means no LNER can terminate and everything either uses platform two or as myself and others have said - you stack the departures on top of the locked out units meaning a two minute walk down to the far end of the platform which has no seating and more importantly no cover from the elements

You are aware today is a strike day, and there's no Northern service?

An LNER set will also fit on platform 2.

 

[Bantamzen]

Are trains being stabled for long periods at Forster Square? If so, why? That seems an inefficient use of stock if these are trains that could've been running a service somewhere. And if they are being stabled for long periods (as opposed to simply arriving then waiting 15 minutes before forming the returning service), why does that have to be at a station?

I'm guessing they are there because the 2tph morning peak services to Skipton and Ilkley ramp down to 1tph in the off-peaks, so there will be spare units hanging waiting to restart the evening peaks.

 

[WAO]

Wouldn't a reversing siding, north of the station, with a defined staff walkway, be better value than an extra platform, for avoiding parked EMU's within the station? Think Liverpool Central....

Even better would be to make FS a through station (takes cover).

WAO

 

[Bantamzen]

Are trains being stabled for long periods at Forster Square? If so, why? That seems an inefficient use of stock if these are trains that could've been running a service somewhere. And if they are being stabled for long periods (as opposed to simply arriving then waiting 15 minutes before forming the returning service), why does that have to be at a station?

I'm guessing they are there because the 2tph morning peak services to Skipton and Ilkley ramp down to 1tph in the off-peaks, so there will be spare units hanging waiting to restart the evening peaks.

 

[Rikki Lamb]

Wouldn't a reversing siding, north of the station, with a defined staff walkway, be better value than an extra platform, for avoiding parked EMU's within the station? Think Liverpool Central....

Even better would be to make FS a through station (takes cover).

WAO

That will never happen and serves no real benefit

They should never have closed the old station.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm guessing they are there because the 2tph morning peak services to Skipton and Ilkley ramp down to 1tph in the off-peaks, so there will be spare units hanging waiting to restart the evening peaks.

If that is the case, then I'd have thought that a siding at Forster Square or somewhere else would be better value for money than a new platform (Skipton appears to have generous platform capacity plus more space to build another siding nearby if needed). Or - better still - just restore those services to 2tph throughout the day (which we'll have to do eventually anyway if we really want rail travel to be attractive and get more people using rail in the region).

 

[yoyothehobo]

Yeah, they have been doing work on this for at least 2 years already.

This is nothing new.

 

[Iskra]

Might the construction of nearby Shipley depot create stabling facilities for the units that currently occupy the platforms, thus making expansion unnecessary?

Alternatively, could this tempt Grand Central to switch stations and use EMU’s instead?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Just at Forster Square now and you’ve got two units locked out of use in platforms one and one on platform three. That means no LNER can terminate and everything either uses platform two or as myself and others have said - you stack the departures on top of the locked out units meaning a two minute walk down to the far end of the platform which has no seating and more importantly no cover from the elements.

To be honest the whole station should be gutted and started over again. It has never had the facilities befitting a top 10 UK City train station.

You are aware that Northern ASLEF members are on strike today and thus there are no trains running to BDQ other than the LNER services, which will thus be able to terminate in platform 2 without bother?

Are trains being stabled for long periods at Forster Square? If so, why? That seems an inefficient use of stock if these are trains that could've been running a service somewhere. And if they are being stabled for long periods (as opposed to simply arriving then waiting 15 minutes before forming the returning service), why does that have to be at a station?

Nowhere else to put them!

 

[357]

Alternatively, could this tempt Grand Central to switch stations and use EMU’s instead?

There wouldn't be a realistic way to serve Low Moor, Halifax, Brighouse or Mirfield, and Wakefield Kirkgate would be operationally less than ideal, either requiring a reversal there or at Leeds.

It's highly unlikely they would be able to serve Leeds as LNER would claim revenue extraction.

 

[MichaelTrains]

You are aware that Northern ASLEF members are on strike today and thus there are no trains running to BDQ other than the LNER services, which will thus be able to terminate in platform 2 without bother?


Nowhere else to put them!

Yes, I’m aware, the station is five minutes from where I live and I just went down for a look around and you can easily get another platform similar in length to platform three on the retail park side of the station. That way the access road is only narrowed for the first three stores (one of which was home bargains and has been vacant for a good year now).

 

[Iskra]

You are aware that Northern ASLEF members are on strike today and thus there are no trains running to BDQ other than the LNER services, which will thus be able to terminate in platform 2 without bother?


Nowhere else to put them!

Will the forthcoming Shipley EMU depot change that situation though?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Yes, I’m aware, the station is five minutes from where I live and I just went down for a look around and you can easily get another platform similar in length to platform three on the retail park side of the station. That way the access road is only narrowed for the first three stores (one of which was home bargains and has been vacant for a good year now).

Right, it's just that you were complaining about having to walk down the platforms and used today as a good example. It seemed rather random given that no trains are running.

Will the forthcoming Shipley EMU depot change that situation though?

Hopefully!

 

[Iskra]

Right, it's just that you were complaining about having to walk down the platforms and used today as a good example. It seemed rather random given that no trains are running.


Hopefully!

So do we really need a new platform then?

 

[Bob55G]

So do we really need a new platform then?

Probably not. A better use of a very small part of the £24m would be for staff costs to re-introduce the 2TPH off-peak services from Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley. Improves the public transport offering and reduces the need to stable units at Forster Square, thereby freeing up existing platform space.

 

[Meole]

The Shipley by pass comment by the PM was purely illustrative of the possibilities and not a commitment as was clarified later.

 

[td97]

Is there actually a need for a fourth platform anyway?

For years platform three was used most of the day to stable a spare unit, with the longer pair of platforms able to cope with 2tph on each 'leg' of the triangle.

This is also linked to the new Shipley depot which will see more ECS moves and services starting/finishing at Bradford FS.

From TRU thread

Don't think it's been mentioned yet but a new stabling depot is planned at Shipley