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Bradford Southern Gateway Station

MichaelTrains

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Interesting update on this long drawn-out saga from today's T&A.

Could Bradford be finally getting a new station it desperately needs?

WORK to develop a new city centre rail station in Bradford could soon be back on the rails, despite the Government cancelling the local Northern Powerhouse Rail line.

Although few details have been announced so far, the station is expected to be a through station, and is likely to be on the site off Wakefield Road currently occupied by St James’ Wholesale Market.
 
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William3000

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I’m trying to work out what this means in practice. Where would the through route go once east of the wholesale market, would it curve south and mean closure of Interchange? Or would it go underground? Would it link to Forster Square or replace it? Or would all three stations remain?
 

xotGD

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Unless it replaces both existing stations it will fail to address Bradford's primary issue, which is the need for cross-town interchanges.

A cross-platform connection from Airedale through to Manchester would be bliss.
 
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It is basically on the site of Adolphous Street Station, which was operational from 1854-67 for passengers and until 1972 for goods. It closed because it was (then) too remote from the city centre and up a steep hill. Rail access from the east would not be a problem, but it would be challenge to loop around to the line coming up from Interchange. There are some very evocative shots of Adolphous Street on the 'Disused Stations'website.

Adolphous Street
 

MichaelTrains

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I’m trying to work out what this means in practice. Where would the through route go once east of the wholesale market, would it curve south and mean closure of Interchange? Or would it go underground? Would it link to Forster Square or replace it? Or would all three stations remain?
I've emailed Susan Hinchliffe awaiting her reply.

You would expect all three stations to remain with this new Gateway station the main station because of the through lines and no need to go down the hill to reverse.
 

Bantamzen

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Unless it replaces both existing stations it will fail to address Bradford's primary issue, which is the need for cross-town interchanges.

A cross-platform connection from Airedale through to Manchester would be bliss.
The site is further away from the city centre than the Interchange is, up a hill, on the wrong side of the busy Inner Ring Road, in an industrial area, with the line on an incline entering a deep cutting. It literally had no benefits in even replacing the Interchange. This is what happens when local councillors get their hands on the really big Crayolas. It was a crap location for the long dead NPR alignment through the city, but for a station on the existing Bradford-Leeds route its just a joke.

Hopefully Network Rail would take one look and walk away laughing.
 

quantinghome

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Unless it replaces both existing stations it will fail to address Bradford's primary issue, which is the need for cross-town interchanges.

A cross-platform connection from Airedale through to Manchester would be bliss.
I disagree. Bradford's primary issue is that it is not on the intercity network.

Cross-town interchange would only be useful for journeys which would be quicker via Bradford than Leeds. Basically some of Airedale/Wharfedale to some of Calderdale. What level of demand is there from Shipley to Halifax? Whatever the merits of that, it's not actually beneficial to Bradford itself.

It would be useful to consider Shipley. This already serves a similar function, providing cross-platform interchange for journeys between Airedale and Wharfedale. How many journeys does it provide interchange for and how beneficial is that to Shipley?
 

xotGD

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It would be useful to consider Shipley. This already serves a similar function, providing cross-platform interchange for journeys between Airedale and Wharfedale. How many journeys does it provide interchange for and how beneficial is that to Shipley?
Shipley has more services than anywhere else in Airedale. I would count that as a benefit.
 

Islandexpress

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Twice a week, Shipley to Manchester Vic. ‍♂️. Direct or cross platform would be bliss. (At the moment of course, Northern is more reliable than TPX, and often half the price.)
 

MichaelTrains

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I disagree. Bradford's primary issue is that it is not on the intercity network.

Cross-town interchange would only be useful for journeys which would be quicker via Bradford than Leeds. Basically some of Airedale/Wharfedale to some of Calderdale. What level of demand is there from Shipley to Halifax? Whatever the merits of that, it's not actually beneficial to Bradford itself.

It would be useful to consider Shipley. This already serves a similar function, providing cross-platform interchange for journeys between Airedale and Wharfedale. How many journeys does it provide interchange for and how beneficial is that to Shipley?

This is probably the last chance for a comprehensive plan for rail development in the city.

I understand it's ever so slightly away from the city centre but it's only a five-minute walk from where the interchange currently is and if this gateway station means new services and more importantly better connectivity then it's a green light for me.

For too long now rail in Bradford has been abandoned.
 

quantinghome

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Shipley has more services than anywhere else in Airedale. I would count that as a benefit.
That's not really what we're talking about though, is it? The ability to use Shipley as an interchange is a marginally helpful side-effect of the frequency of services through Shipley. It's not the reason for the service frequency in the first place.

How would providing a direct or cross platform service through Bradford improve the current services Bradford has? It would link them up but it wouldn't provide Bradford with any new destinations or increased frequency (not without significant investment elsewhere on the network).

This is probably the last chance for a comprehensive plan for rail development in the city.

I understand it's ever so slightly away from the city centre but it's only a five-minute walk from where the interchange currently is and if this gateway station means new services and more importantly better connectivity then it's a green light for me.

For too long now rail in Bradford has been abandoned.
What problem does this solve? How does it improve Bradford's railway connections? Perhaps doing away with the conflicting moves at Mill Lane Jn would allow an increased frequency, but the line's pretty busy already and the current service pattern limits what can be added.

Surely Bradford's greatest need is a regular intercity to London - hourly or two-hourly, would be great.
 

Tetchytyke

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A through station would mostly benefit people in Halifax and the Calder Valley, as you’d lose the reversal at Bradford saving five or six minutes. Beyond that, I’m not convinced it would change a great deal, especially not in a context where Forster Square is losing almost half its trains in a couple of weeks.

The money would be much better spent on renovating the two existing stations.

Sadly Bradford Council have always favoured the grandiose over the practical.
 

tbtc

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How would providing a direct or cross platform service through Bradford improve the current services Bradford has? It would link them up but it wouldn't provide Bradford with any new destinations or increased frequency (not without significant investment elsewhere on the network).

Agreed, a “Crossrail” would be of very little benefit to Bradford (other than the ability to head to one central station for all Leeds-bound trains, albeit from opposite platforms, plus the time penalty for going via Shipley means it’s generally always faster to wait and go via Pudsey, though I’m sure someone will point out some evening/Sunday exceptions)

Plus you then get into the other two big problems:

1. Assuming that the plan is for Halifax services to run via Shipley into Leeds, whilst the Pudsey route is used by Skipton trains (?) then what do you do about electrification? Start running lots of services currently that have been run by EMUs for decades with diesel trains? Or are you also paying for Calder Valley electrification or a massive fleet of bi-modes? (This is much like SELRAP, where the seemingly small proposal comes at a much heftier price because of the unspoken implications that various other things will also be paid for)

2. At the moment there are three trains an hour from the Calder Valley to Leeds via Pudsey (some semi-fast). But there are only two paths an hour from Bradford to Leeds via Shipley (stoppers, taking around ten minutes longer between the cities). So would Hebden Bridge/ Halifax etc lose some of their Leeds services because of a lack of paths (on top of the time penalty)?

Ultimately, there seem to be no spare paths at the Leeds end, so any ambitions for Bradford would always be reshuffling the same number of services to break some links if you want to create others (e.g. you can have through trains from keighley/ Ilkley to Manchester but that means a reduction in services from places like Hebden Bridge/ Halifax to Leeds)

Surely Bradford's greatest need is a regular intercity to London - hourly or two-hourly, would be great.

I wouldn’t put that as a massive priority, more of a grandstanding ambition for local MPs to focus on

Has the GC service made much quantifiable difference to Bradford?

Whereas, electrifying the Calder Valley would provide faster cleaner trains (with plenty of scope for longer ones too, given the surplus of EMUs nationwide)

A through station would mostly benefit people in Halifax and the Calder Valley, as you’d lose the reversal at Bradford saving five or six minutes

Services at the Interchange seem to generally take two or three minutes to reverse. Given the passenger churn at a big city station, you’d expect something like that even if services weren’t reversing

But then a through station presumably means taking best part of ten minutes longer to get to Leeds because your train would be taking the more long-winded route through Shipley , so I can’t see much advantage for Halifax passengers
 

30907

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We've had the Bradford Crossrail discussion umpteen times already to my knowledge :(

Meanwhile, back to the Bradford Markets site: I cannot see the transport rationale for this as a standalone (without a through high(ish)-speed route to piggyback on), or quite how it would boost the city's economy as BMDC are claiming.

It would be about 3min quicker from Leeds than to Interchange, and so about 5min faster to Halifax and beyond, but the 3min saved will easily be lost by additional travel into the city centre including its tourist attractions. And from the Manchester direction it would be an increase - whereas that's the route that needs speeding up!

There may be a case in terms of regeneration/inward business investment, but that's another matter - and with the NPR idea with a through station on the main HSL Leeds-Manchester it would make more sense.
 

quantinghome

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I wouldn’t put that [regular intercity service to London] as a massive priority, more of a grandstanding ambition for local MPs to focus on

Has the GC service made much quantifiable difference to Bradford?

Whereas, electrifying the Calder Valley would provide faster cleaner trains (with plenty of scope for longer ones too, given the surplus of EMUs nationwide)
The lack of intercity services in Bradford is a significant issue for a big English city. You have to go some way down the list of urban subdivisions to find places which have worse intercity services (specifically Sunderland, Teeside, Bolton and Northampton). Appreciate that geography and economics don't favour Bradford. However, I'm still in favour of NPR via Bradford to address it.

I've not used GC so can't really comment. Anecdotally it's useful for friends who are happy to have a slower but cheaper link to London. But clearly the infrequent service and west-riding-grand-tour routing don't help that much.

Yes, electrify the Calder Valley (and everything else for that matter). But do both - extending London-Leeds to Bradford doesn't require any infrastructure intervention, just sorting out the timetable on the Airedale line.
 
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Tetchytyke

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But then a through station presumably means taking best part of ten minutes longer to get to Leeds because your train would be taking the more long-winded route through Shipley , so I can’t see much advantage for Halifax passengers
The two routes are actually about the same, 24 minutes via Shipley with 4 stops and 21 minutes via Pudsey with 2 stops. The stops at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge add 5 minutes to that route.

I still don’t see the point of spending hundreds of millions on a through station though, unless it is part of NPR or a similar suite of improvements.

Has the GC service made much quantifiable difference to Bradford?
GC isn’t regular and the route it takes in Yorkshire is uncompetitive, shall we say.

It’d be interesting to see what impact an hourly or 2-hourly LNER would make.
 

Sad Sprinter

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The two routes are actually about the same, 24 minutes via Shipley with 4 stops and 21 minutes via Pudsey with 2 stops. The stops at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge add 5 minutes to that route.

I still don’t see the point of spending hundreds of millions on a through station though, unless it is part of NPR or a similar suite of improvements.


GC isn’t regular and the route it takes in Yorkshire is uncompetitive, shall we say.

It’d be interesting to see what impact an hourly or 2-hourly LNER would make.

isn't the GC Bradford route pretty healthy in passenger numbers?
 

WAO

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Does anyone have a map of what is proposed?

Re-opening Adolphus Street can't really be serious? How is it to be a through station?

WAO
 

Tetchytyke

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isn't the GC Bradford route pretty healthy in passenger numbers?
IME yes, but more from Halifax and Wakefield (in both cases GC are more competitive on time) than from Bradford.

As for the plans, I think we can safely dismiss it as just another Bradford Council fantasy. We’ll get the Odsal Superdome stadium before we get Bradford Crossrail.
 

Grimsby town

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There were options for linking Bradford to NPR via Huddersfield with upgraded track and perhaps avoiding Halifax. I believe this what Truss was looking at as cheaper way to link Bradford. It'd also means that the upgrades east of Huddersfield as part of TRU are still used by most express Leeds to Manchester. It would likely need the through station in Bradford to ensure Leeds to Manchester journey times are still relatively competitive.
 

MichaelTrains

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There were options for linking Bradford to NPR via Huddersfield with upgraded track and perhaps avoiding Halifax. I believe this what Truss was looking at as cheaper way to link Bradford. It'd also means that the upgrades east of Huddersfield as part of TRU are still used by most express Leeds to Manchester. It would likely need the through station in Bradford to ensure Leeds to Manchester journey times are still relatively competitive.
So the plans are for Leeds to Manchester via Bradford but avoiding Halifax and Sowerby Bridge etc?
 

MarkyT

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There were options for linking Bradford to NPR via Huddersfield with upgraded track and perhaps avoiding Halifax. I believe this what Truss was looking at as cheaper way to link Bradford. It'd also means that the upgrades east of Huddersfield as part of TRU are still used by most express Leeds to Manchester. It would likely need the through station in Bradford to ensure Leeds to Manchester journey times are still relatively competitive.
Just because some trains from the west could turn left east of Huddersfield to go to Bradford on an improved route, whether to a new through station or a tarted-up Interchange terminus, that doesn't mean all trains must go that way. The fastest way from Huddersfield to Leeds will still be direct via Dewsbury. Bradford could even plausibly get a terminating HS2 service from London that way, maybe a 200m set detached from a full-length train at Manchester.
 

Grimsby town

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So the plans are for Leeds to Manchester via Bradford but avoiding Halifax and Sowerby Bridge etc?
It's certainly an option that is being considered.I'm not 100% sure that's what this related to.

Just because some trains from the west could turn left east of Huddersfield to go to Bradford on an improved route, whether to a new through station or a tarted-up Interchange terminus, that doesn't mean all trains must go that way. The fastest way from Huddersfield to Leeds will still be direct via Dewsbury. Bradford could even plausibly get a terminating HS2 service from London that way, maybe a 200m set detached from a full-length train at Manchester.

That's what I was getting at. Not all trains will go via Bradford but the upgraded line would give options. I imagine for the service to stack up it will have to continue on to Leeds. From what I know terminating in Bradford has never been considered.
 

Bantamzen

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Is this the idea? (Obvs the pink!)
I don't think Bradford Council's thinking has got as far how to get a through station anywhere on that site. I suspect this is a hangover from NPR where this site was mooted as the site for a high speed station, which incidentally also had no thinking as to how to get a new alignment there! St James Market is at a higher elevation than Bradford Interchange, not to mention the small matter of getting the line across Wakefield Road and through all the industrial stuff to the immediate west. Simply put, this is a non-starter.

In terms of dealing with Bradford's low connectivity to LNER's aborted plans to extend some Leeds-Kings Cross to Forster Square would be a step forward. There are proposals to extend P4 at Shipley to accommodate 9-10 80x sets, and if LNER ever recommit to the bi-hourly service this would hopefully kick on plans to improve Forster Square and it's approach to make it a bit more appealing. Its nowhere near the long lost dream of a crossrail, but anything to start to improve things would be nice.
 

Grimsby town

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I don't see why not as long as Bradford gets a decent regular service to Manchester in about half an hour then it doesn't really matter if services terminate or not!

Because Leeds and beyond to Manchester is always going to be a far bigger market than just Bradford to Manchester. You could argue that Manchester doesn't need as many services as proposed as part of NPR but I don't think the terminus plan is being significantly considered.

Bradfords main problem is geography which it will never be able to solve. Bradford is never going to be a significant rail interchange point. Bradford is a sizeable place and definitely deserve a better service but it will struggle to justify services that only serve Bradford. Grand Central for example serves other areas within West Yorkshire although this is partly due to the poor rail network in the area.

Even with a Braford Crossrail scheme and NPR being run via Braford there are very few places outside of Bradford that would interchange at Bradford to go west. Halifax it'd be as quick to travel via Hebden Bridge. Airdale would be quicker via Braford with both Crossrail or NPR but that would require both schemes to go ahead if not it would be quick via Leeds.

On the other hand Leeds provides interchange opportunities to Airdale, Ilkley, Harrogate, Wakefield, Pontefract, Castleford etc. After NPR even Doncaster to Manchester will be a similar journey time via Leeds to the direct route. Bradford simply can't compete with that so it's best shot at better services is to be on a through route serving larger markets.
 

xotGD

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How would providing a direct or cross platform service through Bradford improve the current services Bradford has? It would link them up but it wouldn't provide Bradford with any new destinations or increased frequency (not without significant investment elsewhere on the network).
Having all of the trains to Leeds and all of the trains to London departing from the same station would benefit Bradford rail users.

Dash to Interchange for a tight connection, just miss it, and the next train is from FS. Not much use.
 

railfan99

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Has the GC service made much quantifiable difference to Bradford?

As a foreigner it was jolly handy in October 2022 when other TOCs went on strike but I was still able to travel to London thanks to Grand Central continuing to operate.

A slow route from Bradford Interchange to Doncaster but very well patronised due to the 'strike day'.
 

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