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Braking Points?

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dctraindriver

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9 Jan 2017
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610
as far as I’m concerned, this is exactly how to drive this type of service. I do the same as you for the most part. It’s the fog you have to think about and using a rusty old tractor in a field as a braking point for Flint isn’t going to be any good in the soup!
All locations are different though, like you, there are places I use a counting technique. Sometimes it’s counting in seconds, others it’s counting signals after a specific location and other times it’s counting the clickicty clack of jointed rails. And having a target speed for various areas on your approach to stations helps massively.

I think having a varied style to your driving helps keep your mind active and keeps you alert. The people that make mistakes that I’m aware of have a strict driving style that doesn’t change from dry, slippy, fog or disruption. they’re too cautious and I think complacency sets in. Their argument being, it doesn’t matter if it’s suddenly slippery, they’re braking for that weather anyway. So the mind gets lazy over time. I like to brake differently depending on the weather and from what I’ve felt from my running brake test. There are other factors too, like you say, some units (within the same class) are much better than others and the difference is quite drastic.
You made an error there, any driver can make a mistake. There is nothing wrong IMHO of being too cautious. Complacency can set in with anyone. Lazy mind does not only catch out someone whose too cautious. I know a few drivers who were too confident in their ability and had an incident, normally about the 3 to 5 year length of time productive....

As for me, yep use permanent fixtures as an aid to brake, RBT before every stop low adhesion, rain etc. I find I drive to sight, sometimes earlier, sometimes later but I’ll always hit the ramp at 30 (20 if short) been a long while since I came in too fast, and I’m on time....
 
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Red1980

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8 Apr 2019
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296
You made an error there, any driver can make a mistake. There is nothing wrong IMHO of being too cautious. Complacency can set in with anyone. Lazy mind does not only catch out someone whose too cautious. I know a few drivers who were too confident in their ability and had an incident, normally about the 3 to 5 year length of time productive....

As for me, yep use permanent fixtures as an aid to brake, RBT before every stop low adhesion, rain etc. I find I drive to sight, sometimes earlier, sometimes later but I’ll always hit the ramp at 30, been a long while since I came in too fast, and I’m on time....

Kind of agree with this. Sometimes it's healthy to be on edge a little bit. The day you don't and stop showing the job the respect it deserves is the day you slide straight through the station.....or worse.
 

hexagon789

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2 Sep 2016
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17,114
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That's correct. Around half the fleet uses electro-pneumatic braking, allowing you to gradually release and apply brakes as circumstances warrant.

The rest of the fleet uses traditional air-brakes (A-7 or 26L). You can't decrease braking force with those: once they're on, your only options are to apply them harder (up to a maximum) or release them entirely, wait for the brake pipe to recharge, then re-apply. Fully recharging a brake pipe takes 10 to 15 seconds, which can seem like an eternity as the end of the platform looms into sight.

I'm surprised the entire fleet doesn't have EP holdover on the brakes, but going back to my other post - are you allowed to power brake when running a train in direct-release or are you stuck having to try to get the braking right first time other than perhaps a slight increase to line up with the stopping point?
 

paxman

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9 Apr 2017
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I'm surprised the entire fleet doesn't have EP holdover on the brakes, but going back to my other post - are you allowed to power brake when running a train in direct-release or are you stuck having to try to get the braking right first time other than perhaps a slight increase to line up with the stopping point?

Life would be considerably easier were EP fitted to all our rolling stock - but, then, I imagine management would use that as an excuse to chop a zero or two from our wages!

To do a smooth platform stop at high speed, the usual procedure is to make two air brake applications. The first brings you down from line speed to platform approach speed. For this, you use the train brake (cars and loco). The second brings you down from platform approach speed to a stop. But you can't make that second application without having recharged your brake pipe. This entails releasing that first application at the right moment so that distance and track topography keep bringing down your speed while your brake pipe recharges. Your aim is to hit the platform at the right speed with a fully recharged brake pipe.

For the stop itself, you can certainly power brake - ie feed power into the traction motors with the loco brakes released and the car brakes applied. Power braking is fiddly, however, particularly with downhill stations or slippery tracks. You can't power brake with more than a minimal amount of air in the car brake cylinders. Nor can you transition too quickly from a 'bunched' train (ie with couplers compressed from a train brake application) to a 'stretched' one. Most loco platform overshoots on my network are from drivers misjudging the correct combination of power, brake cylinder pressure and station gradient.

Another option for us is the dynamic brake. This turns the traction motors into generators and produces considerable resistance when slowing down the train from line speed. But dynamic braking comes with so many limitations (30 seconds to energise and de-energise, unusable at low speeds, unusable on inclines, disables the locomotive brake, susceptible to sudden failure) that it's best treated as a bonus than a dependable driving tool. Many of our drivers spurn it and choose to rely on air alone.
 
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Strat-tastic

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Outrageous Grace
To do a smooth platform stop at high speed, the usual procedure is to use make two air brake applications. The first brings you down from line speed to platform approach speed. For this, you use the train brake (cars and loco). The second brings you down from platform approach speed to a stop. But you can't make that second application without having recharged your brake pipe. This entails releasing that first application at the right moment so that distance and track topography keep bringing down your speed while your brake pipe recharges. Your aim is to hit the platform at the right speed with a fully recharged brake pipe.

So while your brake pipe is recharging you have no brakes? What about an emergency situation?
 

paxman

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9 Apr 2017
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So while your brake pipe is recharging you have no brakes? What about an emergency situation?

Alas, such is the down-side of the Westinghouse triple valve: you can only recharge your brake pipe by releasing the brakes. During the 10 to 15 seconds that it takes to recharge, you're essentially unbraked.

In an emergency, you could possibly apply the locomotive brakes as they're directly fed by the main reservoir. However, doing so at anything but a crawl could seriously damage the wheels or even divide or derail the train. It wouldn't be particularly effective, either, as you'd be pitting two bogies' worth of brake against an entire moving train.
 

evoluzione

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Joined
8 Nov 2012
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152
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North East
I was taught by an old hand instructor that the best braking point for a particular station was where a Big Chimney “used” to be.

I’ve been happily braking at the imaginary chimney for years.
 

hexagon789

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2 Sep 2016
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Life would be considerably easier were EP fitted to all our rolling stock - but, then, I imagine management would use that as an excuse to chop a zero or two from our wages!

To do a smooth platform stop at high speed, the usual procedure is to make two air brake applications. The first brings you down from line speed to platform approach speed. For this, you use the train brake (cars and loco). The second brings you down from platform approach speed to a stop. But you can't make that second application without having recharged your brake pipe. This entails releasing that first application at the right moment so that distance and track topography keep bringing down your speed while your brake pipe recharges. Your aim is to hit the platform at the right speed with a fully recharged brake pipe.

For the stop itself, you can certainly power brake - ie feed power into the traction motors with the loco brakes released and the car brakes applied. Power braking is fiddly, however, particularly with downhill stations or slippery tracks. You can't power brake with more than a minimal amount of air in the car brake cylinders. Nor can you transition too quickly from a 'bunched' train (ie with couplers compressed from a train brake application) to a 'stretched' one. Most loco platform overshoots on my network are from drivers misjudging the correct combination of power, brake cylinder pressure and station gradient.

Another option for us is the dynamic brake. This turns the traction motors into generators and produces considerable resistance when slowing down the train from line speed. But dynamic braking comes with so many limitations (30 seconds to energise and de-energise, unusable at low speeds, unusable on inclines, disables the locomotive brake, susceptible to sudden failure) that it's best treated as a bonus than a dependable driving tool. Many of our drivers spurn it and choose to rely on air alone.

I don't envy that at all. I've seen a few videos of traditional single pipe Westinghouse with triple valves and read countless threads and posts on various forums. The skill involved in getting it just right is quite something.

Alas, such is the down-side of the Westinghouse triple valve: you can only recharge your brake pipe by releasing the brakes. During the 10 to 15 seconds that it takes to recharge, you're essentially unbraked.

In an emergency, you could possibly apply the locomotive brakes as they're directly fed by the main reservoir. However, doing so at anything but a crawl could seriously damage the wheels or even divide or derail the train. It wouldn't be particularly effective, either, as you'd be pitting two bogies' worth of brake against an entire moving train.

So even if you put the train brake to "emergency" you get nothing?

I was taught by an old hand instructor that the best braking point for a particular station was where a Big Chimney “used” to be.

I’ve been happily braking at the imaginary chimney for years.

:lol:
 

Seehof

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Joined
1 Sep 2019
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531
Location
Yorkshire
You learn your braking points and also places that you pass whereby you should not exceed a certain speed - for example approaching York from the south I never liked to do more than 70mph passing Tesco’s (!) although that depended on clear signals prior to that ! It comes naturally and after a while you take great pride in being exact. If you are a car driver you will find you will drive more exactly and carefully and always pass speed signs at no more than the speed indicated. Do not be afraid to coast - trains love to coast and coast easily!!
Enjoy your training and the job.
 

delticdave

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14 Apr 2017
Messages
449
I don't envy that at all. I've seen a few videos of traditional single pipe Westinghouse with triple valves and read countless threads and posts on various forums. The skill involved in getting it just right is quite something.



So even if you put the train brake to "emergency" you get nothing?



:lol:
I grew up in Walthamstow, (East London) & was lucky enough to experience single pipe Westinghouse braking with steam loco's & articulated passenger stock. (The "Jazz" trains to / from Chingford & Enfield.) The loco crews were unusual, in that the firemen were usually young guys but the drivers were nearing the end of their careers after stepping down from the top links. They really knew how to get the best out of their locos, especially when stopping + the fitters kept the brake valves & train brakes in top-notch condition.
They were replaced by emu's with EP air brakes, obviously faster & quicker, but no better at stopping......

I'm guessing that Paxman is driving single-pipe air-braked trains, not uncommon on UK freight trains but rare on loco-hauled passenger train, 'cos when BR started to replace vacuum brakes with air, they chose the 2-pipe system, using a second pipe to keep the system charged.
 

hexagon789

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2 Sep 2016
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I'm guessing that Paxman is driving single-pipe air-braked trains, not uncommon on UK freight trains but rare on loco-hauled passenger train, 'cos when BR started to replace vacuum brakes with air, they chose the 2-pipe system, using a second pipe to keep the system charged.

I believe most/all single-pipe freight in the UK has distributors which allow graduated release, BR originally used two-pipe with freight but decided to switch to single pipe from the mid-1980s on cost grounds. The older triple-valve air which I believe Paxman uses is direct-release only, exactly as the Jazz Trains were.

As I understand it though, single-pipe air with triple valves is quite uncommon on passenger trains in the US without some form of additional equipment, but is still fairly common on freight.
 

Panupreset

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Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
173
Definitely subscribe to braking zones, adjusting for rail conditions.
Line speed on my routes is generally 80-100mph so some markers approaching stations after initial brake application are important, such as max 50mph at start of station car park at my home station.

Approaching the signal on the down protecting one major station I use 50 at the banner repeater, 40 at the single yellow, 30 at the point work for the goods road, 20 at the aws magnet. My core traction will do that nicely in step one.

As always it’s staying focused that’s the important skill. At 100mph your doing just over a mile and a half a minute. 20 secs away with the fairies and you have gone half a mile. Miss a braking point by half a mile at 100mph and your toes are going to curl big time.
 

Mintona

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8 Jan 2006
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South West
I was taught by an old hand instructor that the best braking point for a particular station was where a Big Chimney “used” to be.

I’ve been happily braking at the imaginary chimney for years.

Is that Bridgwater station? I’m guessing from your avatar probably not, but I was told the same when I learned Bridgwater.
 

Galvanize

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Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,117
Location
South East london
Braking Areas/Zones in my case range from...
*Standard Magnets and Signals...
*Pointwork
*Neutral Sections
*Mileposts
*OHLE Boosters
*PSR Boards
*Under/overbridges
*In line with the buffer stops of an adjacent siding!
*Grey Boxes

And one or two cases, with no other landmarks...
*On Sight!
 
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